#hibileaks/Hands On Hibs/BuyHibs (Merged)

[jdships]

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But true, STF is now 74 and is getting on a bit now, how much longer will he want to be the owner of Hibs, at his age he must be thinking it is time for him to enjoy the rest of his life with his wife and family and not have the hassle he is having now of being the owner of Hibs.

Interesting post !!!
I am in my 83rd year and there are four of us , all in our eighties, who attend ER when finances/health allow
W e are all agreed that the one thing we dislike more than anything is being " advised" , because of our age , that we should " withdraw from public life "
I have known STF for over 40 years and can assure you the man will walk away when and ONLY when HE is ready and not before !!!

Hopefully you will reach your " three score years and ten" and will be fit/healthy enough to enjoy your life without having the hassle of being told when to "retire"

[Elephant Stone]

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Interesting post !!!
I am in my 83rd year and there are four of us , all in our eighties, who attend ER when finances/health allow
W e are all agreed that the one thing we dislike more than anything is being " advised" , because of our age , that we should " withdraw from public life "
I have known STF for over 40 years and can assure you the man will walk away when and ONLY when HE is ready and not before !!!

Hopefully you will reach your " three score years and ten" and will be fit/healthy enough to enjoy your life without having the hassle of being told when to "retire"

[blackpoolhibs]

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Interesting post !!!
I am in my 83rd year and there are four of us , all in our eighties, who attend ER when finances/health allow
W e are all agreed that the one thing we dislike more than anything is being " advised" , because of our age , that we should " withdraw from public life "
I have known STF for over 40 years and can assure you the man will walk away when and ONLY when HE is ready and not before !!!

Hopefully you will reach your " three score years and ten" and will be fit/healthy enough to enjoy your life without having the hassle of being told when to "retire"

Its interesting that you start the post with saying its an interesting post. Perhaps if STF took more of an interest in the football club, we'd not be in this current mess?

I'm not really bothered how old he is, just how well he's running the club. And as we are currently playing our football in the championship once again under his ownership, its no surprise people like myself would prefer it if he left the club sooner rather than later.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

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Its interesting that you start the post with saying its an interesting post. Perhaps if STF took more of an interest in the football club, we'd not be in this current mess?

I'm not really bothered how old he is, just how well he's running the club. And as we are currently playing our football in the championship once again under his ownership, its no surprise people like myself would prefer it if he left the club sooner rather than later.

[jdships]

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Its interesting that you start the post with saying its an interesting post. Perhaps if STF took more of an interest in the football club, we'd not be in this current mess?

I'm not really bothered how old he is, just how well he's running the club. And as we are currently playing our football in the championship once again under his ownership, its no surprise people like myself would prefer it if he left the club sooner rather than later.

It was an interesting post as when you get on a bit in terms of age people are always ready to criticise the fact that we are still involved in every day life and have something to offer . That is my beef .
If you took the time to meet STF and speak with him you would find a different man to the one you describe !!
As I said before I trust you will achieve your " three score years and ten" and do not have the hassle of being advised to " leave the building "

[blackpoolhibs]

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It was an interesting post as when you get on a bit in terms of age people are always ready to criticise the fact that we are still involved in every day life and have something to offer . That is my beef .
If you took the time to meet STF and speak with him you would find a different man to the one you describe !!
As I said before I trust you will achieve your " three score years and ten" and do not have the hassle of being advised to " leave the building "

I understood that JD, but as much as you know the man and most of us can only go on whats happening and happened, and under his ownership the club he saved for the community has twice been relegated. I dont expect Hibs to be relegated under any owner.

[The Falcon]

We used to have the Theodore Roosevelt quote on wall that began

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena,......." etc

[southsider]

H on H may have a point about the football club and the parent company. I have today, as a shareholder, written to our club asking for the following information. 1) What was the total cost of redeveloping ER stadium. 2) What amount have we repaid to date and what was the interest charged on these loans ? Did the sale of players from our so called Golden Generation ( Scott B, KT, Whitty, Fletch etc ) pay for East Mains and is there still capital/interest payments due on this ?If anyone on here knows the answers to my questions it will save me the cost of a stamp.

[CropleyWasGod]

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H on H may have a point about the football club and the parent company. I have today, as a shareholder, written to our club asking for the following information. 1) What was the total cost of redeveloping ER stadium. 2) What amount have we repaid to date and what was the interest charged on these loans ? Did the sale of players from our so called Golden Generation ( Scott B, KT, Whitty, Fletch etc ) pay for East Mains and is there still capital/interest payments due on this ?If anyone on here knows the answers to my questions it will save me the cost of a stamp.

That information is in the accounts.

What point is it that you think HoH have ?

[Barney McGrew]

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H on H may have a point about the football club and the parent company. I have today, as a shareholder, written to our club asking for the following information. 1) What was the total cost of redeveloping ER stadium. 2) What amount have we repaid to date and what was the interest charged on these loans ? Did the sale of players from our so called Golden Generation ( Scott B, KT, Whitty, Fletch etc ) pay for East Mains and is there still capital/interest payments due on this ?If anyone on here knows the answers to my questions it will save me the cost of a stamp.

As a shareholder you'll surely have all that information in the accounts you'll have been sent each year

[marinello59]

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H on H may have a point about the football club and the parent company. I have today, as a shareholder, written to our club asking for the following information. 1) What was the total cost of redeveloping ER stadium. 2) What amount have we repaid to date and what was the interest charged on these loans ? Did the sale of players from our so called Golden Generation ( Scott B, KT, Whitty, Fletch etc ) pay for East Mains and is there still capital/interest payments due on this ?If anyone on here knows the answers to my questions it will save me the cost of a stamp.

What point? Have they actually made one now?

[southsider]

Thanks for your reply but it is not easy for people who do not come from a financial background to grasp. For example the FF and West stands were built at a cost of £6.5m. £2.5 m at a fixed rate of 7% over 20 years. With interest rates now at 0.5% has this not been regegotiated ?If not why not ? The further £4m was to be repaid in 10 years at a variable rate. What rate ? Do you see my point ?

[Kaiser1962]

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Thanks for your reply but it is not easy for people who do not come from a financial background to grasp. For example the FF and West stands were built at a cost of £6.5m. £2.5 m at a fixed rate of 7% over 20 years. With interest rates now at 0.5% has this not been regegotiated ?If not why not ? The further £4m was to be repaid in 10 years at a variable rate. What rate ? Do you see my point ?

The FF was not built by the Football Club.

[Caversham Green]

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Thanks for your reply but it is not easy for people who do not come from a financial background to grasp. For example the FF and West stands were built at a cost of £6.5m. £2.5 m at a fixed rate of 7% over 20 years. With interest rates now at 0.5% has this not been regegotiated ?If not why not ? The further £4m was to be repaid in 10 years at a variable rate. What rate ? Do you see my point ?

From the last set of accounts, interest paid to the holding company was £5,033 on a loan of £250,000 - that's a rate of 2%. A further £1,500,000 was advanced interest free and the total amount paid to the holding company including rent was £29,033. No other rent was paid to anyone.

All other interest was paid to the bank. In round figures this was £132,000 on loans of around £7m, which is a rate of about 2%. That is a substantially lower rate than any other club I've looked at, presumably because the loans are covered by a personal guarantee rather than a security on land.

As Kaiser 1962 says the FF (and the South Stand) was built by the holding company before the whole ground was sold back to the club at a cash loss. No further loans were raised for East Mains, but a further £1.5m was taken on to help finance the £3.8m cost on the new East Stand.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Thanks for your reply but it is not easy for people who do not come from a financial background to grasp. For example the FF and West stands were built at a cost of £6.5m. £2.5 m at a fixed rate of 7% over 20 years. With interest rates now at 0.5% has this not been regegotiated ?If not why not ? The further £4m was to be repaid in 10 years at a variable rate. What rate ? Do you see my point ?

I don't see the point in such people asking questions when they admit they won't understand the answers. If that was part of the point you are making.

My point is that people who don't understand finance are wanting to be involved in making financial decisions. I'm a great believer in everybody playing to their strengths instead of wasting effort trying to do other people's jobs.

Week by week a picture is emerging of well meaning amateurs putting the clubs future at risk. It's like a car crash where, rather than wait for the emergency services, people dive in and cause greater harm.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[southsider]

Thanks CG, your answer makes things a lot clearer. I just wanted to find out if our football club were throwing my money (ST holder since you could buy them for the terracing) away in high interest charges.

[The Falcon]

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From the last set of accounts, interest paid to the holding company was £5,033 on a loan of £250,000 - that's a rate of 2%. A further £1,500,000 was advanced interest free and the total amount paid to the holding company including rent was £29,033. No other rent was paid to anyone.

Do we know where this £1.5m came from? I assume it was technically via the holding company but ultimately came from STF? I accept that this might be wrong though.

[Peevemor]

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Do we know where this £1.5m came from? I assume it was technically via the holding company but ultimately came from STF? I accept that this might be wrong though.

Given that the holding company is 90% STF, it's safe to say that it has come from him. Whether it's ultimately from his pocket or a bank loan is a different story - it should be remembered it can sometimes be cheaper to use the bank's money than your own, especially if you you don't really need to borrow it (ie. you have the dosh elsewhere if necessary).

[JimBHibees]

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We used to have the Theodore Roosevelt quote on wall that began

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena,......." etc

Fantastic quote that is. First time I have seen it. Full version is here.

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

[jacomo]

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Fantastic quote that is. First time I have seen it. Full version is here.

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Great quote. It's easy to criticise from a distance, but very hard to run a Scottish football club. STF has made mistakes, but unless there is evidence to the contrary I still believe he has the best interests of the club at heart.

[Cropley10]

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Thanks for your reply but it is not easy for people who do not come from a financial background to grasp. For example the FF and West stands were built at a cost of £6.5m. £2.5 m at a fixed rate of 7% over 20 years. With interest rates now at 0.5% has this not been regegotiated ?If not why not ? The further £4m was to be repaid in 10 years at a variable rate. What rate ? Do you see my point ?

Bank of England Base Rate is 0.5%, do you know what the cheapest you can borrow money at for a fixed term of 5, 10 or 20 years is today? Easy to think that a re-negotiation is easy.

Btw if this part is right STF wanted to be paid 7% of £2.5 m over 20 years, so £175,000, or about £8,750 per annum. If it's a balloon payment of 7%, then his £175,000 in year 20, would be worth considerably less than it was when he loaned the money, of course.

[greenlex]

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Fantastic quote that is. First time I have seen it. Full version is here.

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Thus indeed a great quote.

[The Green Goblin]

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Fantastic quote that is. First time I have seen it. Full version is here.

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

That's great, and applicable to many different situations.

[jacomo]

I've said before that I don't think anyone will know how much STF has put into the club or taken out of it until such time as he sells up. Until then, it's all speculation.

It could be that he sells for a high price and makes an overall profit - why not, it's what most people who risk their own money want.

More likely is that he won't be able to sell at a profit and might carry a big loss.

I am convinced that STF did not buy Hibs to enrich himself - plenty of easier ways to do that, in sectors that he understands better.

[schinkenotto]

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I've said before that I don't think anyone will know how much STF has put into the club or taken out of it until such time as he sells up. Until then, it's all speculation.

It could be that he sells for a high price and makes an overall profit - why not, it's what most people who risk their own money want.

More likely is that he won't be able to sell at a profit and might carry a big loss.

I am convinced that STF did not buy Hibs to enrich himself - plenty of easier ways to do that, in sectors that he understands better.

I am in no doubt that if STF sells,he will do so at "a big loss".From my personal experience of the man,he is a major contributor to and patron of several charities and genuinely interested in social betterment. Whatever people think of his stewardship of the club(and things are in a pretty bad way at the moment),he is certainly not in it for the money and to suggest that he has been "milking" the club says more about his accusers than the man himself.

[blackpoolhibs]

I dont think STF is in it to make ANY money out of Hibs, but he's not a man who is at the coal face running the shift. He's an absent owner who put someone in to run the place for him, and thats not been working for a long while.

[EastCalderHibby]

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I am in no doubt that if STF sells,he will do so at "a big loss".From my personal experience of the man,he is a major contributor to and patron of several charities and genuinely interested in social betterment. Whatever people think of his stewardship of the club(and things are in a pretty bad way at the moment),he is certainly not in it for the money and to suggest that he has been "milking" the club says more about his accusers than the man himself.

[Andy74]

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I dont think STF is in it to make ANY money out of Hibs, but he's not a man who is at the coal face running the shift. He's an absent owner who put someone in to run the place for him, and thats not been working for a long while.

Most companies are owned by shareholders that don't actually run the company day to day.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

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Most companies are owned by shareholders that don't actually run the company day to day.

True, but they would probably ask some very difficult questions of a chairman and chief exec who put in place a strategy that was leading to decline in all of the key areas of the business, over a medium term period.

[grunt]

This maybe needs a new thread

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...-bid-1-3600325

AN umbrella body of Hibernian supporters are to launch a bid on Tuesday to take the club back into community ownership.

The campaign group, which has the backing of the Hibernian Former Players’ Association, the Supporters’ Association and Supporters Direct Scotland (SDS) among other organisations, will invite current owner Sir Tom Farmer to enter negotiations to sell to them as a single package the club itself, Easter Road, and the training centre at East Mains outside Tranent.

Former Hibs captain Pat Stanton will head the campaign and be present at the launch, where organisers will reveal the name of the group. They plan to fund a takeover in the same way as the Foundation of Hearts did at Tynecastle, with individual fans pledging a monthly amount and one or more business people committing a lump sum.

Farmer and Hibs chairman Rod Petrie have appeared unwilling to negotiate with recent potential buyers, but a spokesperson for the new group said they hoped for constructive talks, with the aim on both sides of securing the long-term future of the club.

“We want to buy all the assets together - the club, ground and training ground,” the spokesperson said. “We will ask Tom Farmer to name his price and tell us what he wants for the three assets. “We’re offering a positive exit for him, one that allows him to give the club back to the community, and to leave the club on a positive note. “This is about uniting the Hibs support to get one group driving positive change. We plan to raise the money via a mixture of individual subscriptions, with fans pledging a monthly sum, and funds from Hibs-supporting business people.”

The new group, which has been working on its plans for several months, concluded from a survey conducted with SDS that there was a willingness among the Hibs support to try to take the club back.
More than 4,000 people replied to the survey, with a sizeable majority supporting more talks on community ownership.

The group hopes that they will get backing from Hibs fans on a scale that allows them to say the community is behind them. They will also be keen to remind Farmer that when he took over the club nearly 25 years ago he said he had done so for the community.

“It’s common knowledge that Hibs’ current owners have had discussions with some potential purchasers of the club, and that in every single case they’ve said it’s not about money,” the spokesperson continued.
“Well, if it’s not about money, put the club into community ownership and walk away. “What we’ll say to Tom Farmer and Rod Petrie is: ‘We’ve got a structure here. We’ve got everything set up. You keep saying to people who have put in bids for the club or been interested in doing so that they’re not the right people. Other than Hibs supporters, who are the right people?’ “We don’t know how much they want for the club. But if it’s not about money ... So we’re saying to them either give us a price and work with us, or come out with plausible, proper, fresh plans for investment. “We’re going to ask people to pledge now, but we won’t take any money from them until we have a deal. It will be very much like what the Foundation of Hearts did. “I’d be keen to sit down with [Hearts owner] Ann Budge to discuss our plans. In fact, at the last Edinburgh derby one of my colleagues had a short discussion with her, and she seems quite keen to help. I’m sure there are things we can learn from her. “I would urge all Hibs fans to work with us and get together. We’re more than happy to work together with anyone for the benefit of the club. “There have been previous attempts get the club back into community ownership, and in many ways this is the last throw of the dice for us. We either do it this time - or we walk away and leave Hibernian at the mercy of the current owners. “This will be a positive campaign. The owners have a goal, and it must be to get out. We have a goal to get the club sold to the right people. “That goal is surely the same. If we work together, we’ll surely achieve it far more quickly and easily.”