Scottish Independence

[Phil D. Rolls]

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A pretty poor campaign from both sides has left me none the wiser.

Yes have kept going on about oil revenues when they should be talking about investment in green energy - we have one of the windiest countries in Europe with great potential also for tidal and wave power. Investment in green energy should have been the cornerstone of their economic policy. They've missed a trick.

No campaign has been unbelievably negative and led by the privately educated Westminster political elite. They should have been much clearer and quicker about their intentions to give more powers to the Scottish parliament. I think that's what everyone really wants - more autonomy for the Scottish parliament but without the risks that go with the step into the dark.

There has been nothing but playground squabbling in the debates, and some pretty childish squabbles at that. Would it have been so outlandish for both sides to negotiate the terms of independence prior to the vote (at least in principal) so that we have something solid to base our decision on?

I'm worried about the risks to my pension and mortgage. All of my work comes from down south. I'm leaning towards no but have changed my mind several times within the last month. There's still time to change it back!!!!.

The fact were having a referendum is a great thing, and is the envy of many countries in Europe - look at the Catalans for example. But as things stand, my brain is saturated, I don't know who to believe and I'll be glad when it's over and done with.

Cheers

Oh me, oh my.....:

Stop worrying and start thinking. That includes thinking hard about whether either sides claims are realistic, and which one you would trust.

Come on, make a decision, and stop dithering about.

[Jack]

I've read this thread from post 1 and its been great debate.

There's pages and pages of good quality debate, definitely better than out there between the two sides and whats reported in the MSM.

Every now and again though there's a wee upsurge in the comedy value for a few pages in much the same way I suppose as Nigel popping up for a chat.

[MyJo]

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A pretty poor campaign from both sides has left me none the wiser.

Yes have kept going on about oil revenues when they should be talking about investment in green energy - we have one of the windiest countries in Europe with great potential also for tidal and wave power. Investment in green energy should have been the cornerstone of their economic policy. They've missed a trick.

No campaign has been unbelievably negative and led by the privately educated Westminster political elite. They should have been much clearer and quicker about their intentions to give more powers to the Scottish parliament. I think that's what everyone really wants - more autonomy for the Scottish parliament but without the risks that go with the step into the dark.

There has been nothing but playground squabbling in the debates, and some pretty childish squabbles at that. Would it have been so outlandish for both sides to negotiate the terms of independence prior to the vote (at least in principal) so that we have something solid to base our decision on?

I'm worried about the risks to my pension and mortgage. All of my work comes from down south. I'm leaning towards no but have changed my mind several times within the last month. There's still time to change it back!!!!.

The fact were having a referendum is a great thing, and is the envy of many countries in Europe - look at the Catalans for example. But as things stand, my brain is saturated, I don't know who to believe and I'll be glad when it's over and done with.

Cheers

Good post.

Fwiw I think the no side have been focused on the oil more than the he's side, it's clearly an integral part of a Scottish economy but the yes side have deliberately downplayed it's significance in this debate while the no side have continually brought it up telling us we can't base an economy on it.

As for the negotiations on a referendum it was David Cameron that refused any plans for an independent Scotland until a yes vote was given, the uncertainty and lack of answers is a deliberate ploy to hamper the yes campaign

[Leith Green]

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A pretty poor campaign from both sides has left me none the wiser.

Yes have kept going on about oil revenues when they should be talking about investment in green energy - we have one of the windiest countries in Europe with great potential also for tidal and wave power. Investment in green energy should have been the cornerstone of their economic policy. They've missed a trick.

No campaign has been unbelievably negative and led by the privately educated Westminster political elite. They should have been much clearer and quicker about their intentions to give more powers to the Scottish parliament. I think that's what everyone really wants - more autonomy for the Scottish parliament but without the risks that go with the step into the dark.

There has been nothing but playground squabbling in the debates, and some pretty childish squabbles at that. Would it have been so outlandish for both sides to negotiate the terms of independence prior to the vote (at least in principal) so that we have something solid to base our decision on?

I'm worried about the risks to my pension and mortgage. All of my work comes from down south. I'm leaning towards no but have changed my mind several times within the last month. There's still time to change it back!!!!.

The fact were having a referendum is a great thing, and is the envy of many countries in Europe - look at the Catalans for example. But as things stand, my brain is saturated, I don't know who to believe and I'll be glad when it's over and done with.

Cheers

The Yes campaign have been going on about renewable energy, the Greens are for Yes and that is something they believe in

[Albion Hibs]

The delusion at times does astound me. I see yet another link to a country that 'we could be like', I don't often see them putting up ones of Greece, funny that!

I am not putting the future of my family and theirs on the nonsense white paper and the chance that eck salmond will be successful in every single avenue of his negotiation, why do people think he will be? Furthermore if people think the economy will last till all that is said and done then they need to think again. It is not about fear but reality, and there has been a noticeable shift in the angry undertones of the yes gang since the reality started coming out.

[RyeSloan]

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Oh me, oh my.....: Stop worrying and start thinking. That includes thinking hard about whether either sides claims are realistic, and which one you would trust. Come on, make a decision, and stop dithering about.

How can you trust what either side says?

How do you know what is realistic, the white paper, the conflicting economic arguments, the scale of the potential upheaval? It's all so 'unknown' and not really the basis to make such a fundamental decision on.

I'm with the OP on this one...a good balanced post that probably a lot of people can empathise with.

[Albion Hibs]

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The Yes campaign have been going on about renewable energy, the Greens are for Yes and that is something they believe in

renewable energy is something which is currently massively subsidised though, so when our wages from oil run out we replace it with something that loses money?

[CapitalGreen]

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renewable energy is something which is currently massively subsidised though, so when our wages from oil run out we replace it with something that loses money?

Subsidised to allow us to further develop the technology, making it cheaper and more efficient. Being subsidised doesn't mean it is loss making, it just means it is not the most efficient method. The subsidy is to offset the shortfall caused by the inefficiency.

The planet is moving towards renewables, I want Scotland to be at the forefront of that movement, not playing catch up.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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How can you trust what either side says?

How do you know what is realistic, the white paper, the conflicting economic arguments, the scale of the potential upheaval? It's all so 'unknown' and not really the basis to make such a fundamental decision on.

I'm with the OP on this one...a good balanced post that probably a lot of people can empathise with.

Agreed. I have decided to go for the side that appears to have a plan for the future, rather than the one that doesn't. I gave up on No because they weren't offering solutions.

In addition, I worry about the way English politics are developing, with an increasingly xenophobic, and isolationist attitude in evidence.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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renewable energy is something which is currently massively subsidised though, so when our wages from oil run out we replace it with something that loses money?

No, we wait for the Union to help us out. And then we wait. And then we wait a bit longer.

Seven of the poorest regions in Europe are in the North of England - the richest is London. What does that tell you about the Union.

[Albion Hibs]

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Subsidised to allow us to further develop the technology, making it cheaper and more efficient. Being subsidised doesn't mean it is loss making, it just means it is not the most efficient method. The subsidy is to offset the shortfall caused by the inefficiency.

The planet is moving towards renewables, I want Scotland to be at the forefront of that movement, not playing catch up.

My point is when something that makes up 15% upwards of the nations bank account runs out it has always been stated that renewable energy will replace! yet it either loses or does not make money. How can any country sustain this loss?

You point is different, it is about renewable energy, and I don't disagree with it, but you don't need independence to achieve it. How does a campaign / white paper based so heavily on oil extraction sit with your green principles?

[Mon Dieu4]

Good article by Cosgrove here

http://www.thedrum.com/news/2014/09/...-not?desktop=1

[CapitalGreen]

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My point is when something that makes up 15% upwards of the nations bank account runs out it has always been stated that renewable energy will replace! yet it either loses or does not make money. How can any country sustain this loss?

You point is different, it is about renewable energy, and I don't disagree with it, but you don't need independence to achieve it. How does a campaign / white paper based so heavily on oil extraction sit with your green principles?

It depends whether you think renewables will become more efficient in the future or not. The experts seems to think they will, hence the continued investment around the world, and I'm inclined to believe them over somebody on a football forum (no offence).

[Jamesconnolly]

To vote yes is to be TRULY Scottish

[Colonel_HFC]

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The delusion at times does astound me. I see yet another link to a country that 'we could be like', I don't often see them putting up ones of Greece, funny that!

I am not putting the future of my family and theirs on the nonsense white paper and the chance that eck salmond will be successful in every single avenue of his negotiation, why do people think he will be? Furthermore if people think the economy will last till all that is said and done then they need to think again. It is not about fear but reality, and there has been a noticeable shift in the angry undertones of the yes gang since the reality started coming out.

It's pretty worrying for a lot of people in Scotland that have worked hard and lived well only to have the risk of things being destroyed by a small minded nationalist movement backed up by ifs buts and maybes.

Fortunately for me I live overseas and will not be affected too much, other than my flat in Scotland potentially becoming worthless because SNP dollars (or whatever fictitious currency they want to claim to be able to use next) will not be of any value elsewhere. So I may lose a flat that is currently rented. I wouldn't even mind that so much because it could be worth it just to see the place fall to pieces - it would maybe show other places in the world that nationalism is stupid and worthless.

Sadly I still have family and friends in Scotland that may have to suffer the consequences directly. If I was there I'd vote no. And if a yes vote happened I'd be leaving anyway. But I'm fortunate that way - it's not a viable option for a lot of people.

[Peevemor]

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My point is when something that makes up 15% upwards of the nations bank account runs out it has always been stated that renewable energy will replace! yet it either loses or does not make money. How can any country sustain this loss?

You point is different, it is about renewable energy, and I don't disagree with it, but you don't need independence to achieve it. How does a campaign / white paper based so heavily on oil extraction sit with your green principles?

Global economics dictate that the oil will be exploited, green principles or not. Scotland has the potential in both research capacity and geography/resources to be at the forefront in renewable energies. We all know Westminster's track record when it comes to supporting Scottish industry, yet you can't see how an independent Scotland, aided in the 'short' term by oil revenue, is the best way forward?

[Peevemor]

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It's pretty worrying for a lot of people in Scotland that have worked hard and lived well only to have the risk of things being destroyed by a small minded nationalist movement backed up by ifs buts and maybes.

Fortunately for me I live overseas and will not be affected too much, other than my flat in Scotland potentially becoming worthless because SNP dollars (or whatever fictitious currency they want to claim to be able to use next) will not be of any value elsewhere. So I may lose a flat that is currently rented. I wouldn't even mind that so much because it could be worth it just to see the place fall to pieces - it would maybe show other places in the world that nationalism is stupid and worthless.

Sadly I still have family and friends in Scotland that may have to suffer the consequences directly. If I was there I'd vote no. And if a yes vote happened I'd be leaving anyway. But I'm fortunate that way - it's not a viable option for a lot of people.

Wow!

[BarneyK]

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It's pretty worrying for a lot of people in Scotland that have worked hard and lived well only to have the risk of things being destroyed by a small minded nationalist movement backed up by ifs buts and maybes.

Fortunately for me I live overseas and will not be affected too much, other than my flat in Scotland potentially becoming worthless because SNP dollars (or whatever fictitious currency they want to claim to be able to use next) will not be of any value elsewhere. So I may lose a flat that is currently rented. I wouldn't even mind that so much because it could be worth it just to see the place fall to pieces - it would maybe show other places in the world that nationalism is stupid and worthless.

Sadly I still have family and friends in Scotland that may have to suffer the consequences directly. If I was there I'd vote no. And if a yes vote happened I'd be leaving anyway. But I'm fortunate that way - it's not a viable option for a lot of people.

Latest ICM poll interprets No voters as more driven by feelings of nationalism, whereas Yes voters cite a dislike of the Westminster model of crony capitalism.

[CapitalGreen]

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It's pretty worrying for a lot of people in Scotland that have worked hard and lived well only to have the risk of things being destroyed by a small minded nationalist movement backed up by ifs buts and maybes.

Fortunately for me I live overseas and will not be affected too much, other than my flat in Scotland potentially becoming worthless because SNP dollars (or whatever fictitious currency they want to claim to be able to use next) will not be of any value elsewhere. So I may lose a flat that is currently rented. I wouldn't even mind that so much because it could be worth it just to see the place fall to pieces - it would maybe show other places in the world that nationalism is stupid and worthless.

Sadly I still have family and friends in Scotland that may have to suffer the consequences directly. If I was there I'd vote no. And if a yes vote happened I'd be leaving anyway. But I'm fortunate that way - it's not a viable option for a lot of people.

Property in Scotland is now gonna be worthless? That's a new one, an absolute belter it is too.

[Peevemor]

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Property in Scotland is now gonna be worthless? That's a new one, an absolute belter it is too.

I'm surprised it's not been reported in the Daily Mail. Yet.

[Mon Dieu4]

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Property in Scotland is now gonna be worthless? That's a new one, an absolute belter it is too.

I'm all for it, think I will become a property tycoon in the new Scotland by buying worthless properties for peanuts

[Betty Boop]

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To vote yes is to be TRULY Scottish

Nonsense ! So if you vote NO you can't be a proud Scot ?

[#FromTheCapital]

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To vote yes is to be TRULY Scottish

Perhaps you're at the wind up here, but I'm going to bite anyway.

I'm Scottish because I was born and raised in Scotland. Just because I don't buy into a nationalists vision of how great an independent Scotland could be doesn't make me any less Scottish. So your post is complete bull**** and it makes me cringe that some yes voters hold this belief.

[hibbydog]

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Oh me, oh my.....:

Stop worrying and start thinking. That includes thinking hard about whether either sides claims are realistic, and which one you would trust.

Come on, make a decision, and stop dithering about.

Och...

Can't choose who I trust or believe because it's all claims, counter claims, assertions, selective quoting of whatever statistics suit either side. Zero solid facts.

All I've got to base my decision on is a row.

If you saw two drunk men shouting at each other in a pub, you'd decide not to get involved and walk away thinking that they're both phannies.

It's the same here.

[CropleyWasGod]

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To vote yes is to be TRULY Scottish

Behave yourself Nigel

[hibbydog]

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To vote yes is to be TRULY Scottish

Re arrange these two words: p!sh. Utter.

[Leith Green]

Latest opinium/observer poll due out at 8pm tonight.

Wonder how that might compare to the last few? Im guessing it'll have Nos at 53 with yes at 47 after removing maybe 11 per cent dont know

[Colonel_HFC]

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Property in Scotland is now gonna be worthless? That's a new one, an absolute belter it is too.

Maybe not, but it's quite possible that values will drop and without a stable currency then who can say? The SNP certainly can't. It's a worst case scenario for me (practically at least). I have no confidence in the idea of indenpendence and, if not for some interests left in Scotland, I wouldn't even care and it would actually be funny if it was a disaster - not for the people that didn't want it obviously and couldn't leave. And not even for the people that did want it...

I suppose if it's a yes vote it could potentially be a bit like watching a disaster film where you really care about some of the characters.

[Jamesconnolly]

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Nonsense ! So if you vote NO you can't be a proud Scot ?

Of course you can't be a true scot if you vote no.how could you be ??

[MyJo]

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It's pretty worrying for a lot of people in Scotland that have worked hard and lived well only to have the risk of things being destroyed by a small minded nationalist movement backed up by ifs buts and maybes.

Fortunately for me I live overseas and will not be affected too much, other than my flat in Scotland potentially becoming worthless because SNP dollars (or whatever fictitious currency they want to claim to be able to use next) will not be of any value elsewhere. So I may lose a flat that is currently rented. I wouldn't even mind that so much because it could be worth it just to see the place fall to pieces - it would maybe show other places in the world that nationalism is stupid and worthless.

Sadly I still have family and friends in Scotland that may have to suffer the consequences directly. If I was there I'd vote no. And if a yes vote happened I'd be leaving anyway. But I'm fortunate that way - it's not a viable option for a lot of people.

Tell you what, I'll give you £1000 for your flat on Friday if it's a yes vote then?

Save you having to hang onto something that's worthless in a country you don't give a s**t about.