Scottish Independence

[Moulin Yarns]

Has anybody seen a poll produced after the debate this week?

No, thought not, yet the audience was apparently chosen by IPSOS/MORI.

I find that rather strange that a polling organisation which was a party to the debate have not published a poll. YOUGOV were quick to bring out the Poll result after the Salmond/Darling debates, so where is it?

[JeMeSouviens]

Meanwhile 3 (yes, count them!) of Scotland's distinguished former Secretaries of State for Scotland (whose combined efforts against devolution turned it from a 50-50 in 79 to a landslide in 97) weigh in with a heart rending letter to all of us ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...gravation.html


Memo to BTNT: if you can't even let the current Tory PM loose on Scots for fear of losing votes, what the hell are you letting these 3 chumps above the parapet for?

[JeMeSouviens]

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Has anybody seen a poll produced after the debate this week?

No, thought not, yet the audience was apparently chosen by IPSOS/MORI.

I find that rather strange that a polling organisation which was a party to the debate have not published a poll. YOUGOV were quick to bring out the Poll result after the Salmond/Darling debates, so where is it?

Yougov's poll was published a week after the debate. Rumours are rife that (Yes friendly) Panelbase have been polling again and people are putting tomorrow's guest editorship by Salmond of the Record and that together to come up with a load of nods and winks. (Possibly over 50 of them. )

[NAE NOOKIE]

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A bit about the attack at Tynecastle last weekend.

Quite disgusting behaviour. Foulkes hates a quote, no one else they could have asked.

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...stle-1-3527125

Like Hibs the Yams I would imagine have a fair spread of YES, NO and undecided.

It seems to me that there is a small element around Gorgie who think that their politics and idea of patriotism should be reflected by their view of the club they support ....... I.E. I'm in the 'no' camp coz I'm a Jambo and we as a support fly the Union flag at games.

Its the same ballpark as being persuaded to vote 'no' or 'yes' because your favourite actor or sportsman has declared for that side. FFS follow your own heart or read the evidence .... don't make decisions based on what team you follow or what star you like.

I am positive these neds are not representative of Hearts supporters in general any more than Hibbies beating up no campaigners would be of me.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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Meanwhile 3 (yes, count them!) of Scotland's distinguished former Secretaries of State for Scotland (whose combined efforts against devolution turned it from a 50-50 in 79 to a landslide in 97) weigh in with a heart rending letter to all of us ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...gravation.html


Memo to BTNT: if you can't even let the current Tory PM loose on Scots for fear of losing votes, what the hell are you letting these 3 chumps above the parapet for?

OMG !!!! ... What an utter pile of misty eyed Ertha Kitt full of drivel, historical revisionism and contradictions from 3 political midgets.

The drivel:

Apparently the genius of Scottish inventors, scientists and writers would have died on the vine without the UK because Scotland just wouldn't have had the "global reach"

The contradiction:

They accuse the Nationalistic YES campaign of being hateful and insular, while the Patriotic NO campaign is forward looking and positive ... a campaign which has become a byword for negativity. That's right guys & gals .. if you are thinking YES you are by definition an unpatriotic bigot

And the downright historical revisionism:

Apparently 300 years ago our forebares decided to join the union after due consideration of its benefits to the Scottish people and Scotland's place in the world.

No mention of the fact that Scotland had been nearly bankrupted by the greed of the great and the good of the day, in a failed New World venture, and that in order to save their own asses not to mention fortunes, they resurrected the idea of union with England which had been part of the English agenda for some time. Following the lining of the right Scottish pockets and not a little coercion we had a union. Prompting Burns famous verse ..... you know the one.

The riots in Edinburgh and elsewhere in Scotland following the news coming out reflects the only part played by the people of Scotland in the process. Hardly the picture painted by the 3 wise monkeys.

[ronaldo7]

Scottish members of the RMT union back Independence.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transpo...P8584A.twitter

[ronaldo7]

Jeanne Freeman putting Andrew Neil in his place.


http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09...-scottish-nhs/

[JimBHibees]

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transpo...vote-1-3531501

Good news.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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Jeanne Freeman putting Andrew Neil in his place.


http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09...-scottish-nhs/

That was impressive

[ronaldo7]

2 weeks until we vote and they're just coming to terms with the thought of a Yes vote.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...nce?CMP=twt_gu

[Mibbes Aye]

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Johnson is yet another Eton/Oxford boy. Don't get me wrong, it would be inverted snobbery to suggest an Eton/Oxford boy shouldn't get to the top if he deserves it but we have an Eton/Oxford PM and the only 2 credible candidates to succeed him as leader of the "natural party of government" (as they like to style themselves) are Osbourne (Eton/Oxford) and Johnson (Eton/Oxford).

I mean, seriously?

Osborne didn't go to Eton.

He did go to a very posh school but it wasn't Eton.

[JimBHibees]

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Jeanne Freeman putting Andrew Neil in his place.


http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09...-scottish-nhs/

Quite simply superb. Absolutely owned the combed over hoor meister

[Bristolhibby]

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Osborne didn't go to Eton.

He did go to a very posh school but it wasn't Eton.

Just the £10,880 a year St. Paul's.

Man of the people.

J

[Mibbes Aye]

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Just the £10,880 a year St. Paul's.

Man of the people.

J

I'm not disagreeing, though as JMS says, you should be careful about being an inverted snob.

But the point is, once again, a Yesser make an argument that simply isn't backed up by the facts

[CapitalGreen]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...th_PPE_degrees

[Hibs Class]

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Meanwhile 3 (yes, count them!) of Scotland's distinguished former Secretaries of State for Scotland (whose combined efforts against devolution turned it from a 50-50 in 79 to a landslide in 97) weigh in with a heart rending letter to all of us ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...gravation.html


Memo to BTNT: if you can't even let the current Tory PM loose on Scots for fear of losing votes, what the hell are you letting these 3 chumps above the parapet for?

Wasn't the current Tory PM in Scotland only last week? Have I missed something?


If you are referring to his refusal to do a TV debate then that's a different question, but it is obvious that it would quickly move from a yes/no debate to a Tory/Thatcher debate. All you have to do is listen to Salmond's repeated anti-Tory rhetoric to realise that a head to head would degenerate even faster than the Salmond/Darling debates.

[Stranraer]

Cameron wanted to host a "debate" with undecided voters on STV but it didn't go ahead.

[ronaldo7]

A letter to England. From our English friends

http://www.englishscotsforyes.org/a-letter-to-england/

[Mibbes Aye]

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Wasn't the current Tory PM in Scotland only last week? Have I missed something?


If you are referring to his refusal to do a TV debate then that's a different question, but it is obvious that it would quickly move from a yes/no debate to a Tory/Thatcher debate. All you have to do is listen to Salmond's repeated anti-Tory rhetoric to realise that a head to head would degenerate even faster than the Salmond/Darling debates.

Many Yes posters keep saying Yes is not about Salmond and the SNP.

But they're never slow to turn No into Thatcher and the Tories.

I think it's demeaning and insulting to Scottish voters.

But that chimes with the Yes approach - if you dare think No, then you're feart or stupid

One question for the Yes camp. Why do women consistently poll 'No' in far higher numbers than men?

Does the Yes camp think they are more feart and stupid?

[JeMeSouviens]

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Osborne didn't go to Eton.

He did go to a very posh school but it wasn't Eton.

That's me telt then! ;-)

[JeMeSouviens]

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Wasn't the current Tory PM in Scotland only last week? Have I missed something?


If you are referring to his refusal to do a TV debate then that's a different question, but it is obvious that it would quickly move from a yes/no debate to a Tory/Thatcher debate. All you have to do is listen to Salmond's repeated anti-Tory rhetoric to realise that a head to head would degenerate even faster than the Salmond/Darling debates.

I said he wasn't "let loose". He only appears (and rarely at that) in front of handpicked closed gatherings of Tories. To be fair, I think he wants to be involved but BTNT won't let him.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Cameron wanted to host a "debate" with undecided voters on STV but it didn't go ahead.

Aye, but miss out the part where STV offered a debate, with Bernard Ponsonby AND the undecided voters and Cameron declined BEFORE offering the debate ONLY with undecided voters and you get some balance.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Many Yes posters keep saying Yes is not about Salmond and the SNP.

But they're never slow to turn No into Thatcher and the Tories.

I think it's demeaning and insulting to Scottish voters.

But that chimes with the Yes approach - if you dare think No, then you're feart or stupid

One question for the Yes camp. Why do women consistently poll 'No' in far higher numbers than men?

Does the Yes camp think they are more feart and stupid?

REALLY???

As for women polling no in "Far Higher Numbers" can you provide a source?

In the latest poll, and I have checked, the OVER 64s are the only group where there is a BIG gap

[JeMeSouviens]

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Many Yes posters keep saying Yes is not about Salmond and the SNP.

But they're never slow to turn No into Thatcher and the Tories.

I think it's demeaning and insulting to Scottish voters.

But that chimes with the Yes approach - if you dare think No, then you're feart or stupid

One question for the Yes camp. Why do women consistently poll 'No' in far higher numbers than men?

Does the Yes camp think they are more feart and stupid?

Not far higher but a bit higher. Tbh, I've no idea but one thing that is clear from polling is that a very clear majority of people who identify as Scots (regardless of their ethnicity or gender or country of birth) are planning Yes. I am thus heartened that we're not feart. I wouldn't say stupid either, just some are wrong about this. Hopefully not enough for No.

[Mibbes Aye]

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Not far higher but a bit higher. Tbh, I've no idea but one thing that is clear from polling is that a very clear majority of people who identify as Scots (regardless of their ethnicity or gender or country of birth) are planning Yes. I am thus heartened that we're not feart. I wouldn't say stupid either, just some are wrong about this. Hopefully not enough for No.

Thanks and fair dos to you for not claiming to have a reason.

There's a thread about the ref on the PM board too and I posted this gender question several weeks ago but no one proffered a reason there either.

It's been higher for No consistently. Not by a million miles but comfortably more consistently.

Why does the Yes campaign not persuade women?

[Mibbes Aye]

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REALLY???

As for women polling no in "Far Higher Numbers" can you provide a source?

In the latest poll, and I have checked, the OVER 64s are the only group where there is a BIG gap

Yes, REALLY

We can both go back on this thread and find several posts saying that.

As for the polls, I've just done what anyone else who was interested would do - Google using 'referendum', 'polls' and 'women' or the like. Invariably you get the links to the various polling sites and within those, the gender breakdowns.

It has been mentioned broadly in the general debate by both sides, though maybe hasn't been given the attention it should admittedly, so I'm surprised you're querying it?

Same question to you, why does the Yes campaign not persuade women?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Thanks and fair dos to you for not claiming to have a reason.

There's a thread about the ref on the PM board too and I posted this gender question several weeks ago but no one proffered a reason there either.

It's been higher for No consistently. Not by a million miles but comfortably more consistently.

Why does the Yes campaign not succeed as well with women?

I don't think you can just isolate "women" as such. The reasons are as various as women and their experiences and lifestyles.

A generation or two ago, when women traditionally were home-makers, it might have been easier to categorise them as a group on their own. Indeed, when I saw the BT video, I felt like I was watching a party political broadcast from the 70's. Things were so much "simpler" then.

Maybe there are just more old women these days......

[Mibbes Aye]

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I don't think you can just isolate "women" as such. The reasons are as various as women and their experiences and lifestyles.

A generation or two ago, when women traditionally were home-makers, it might have been easier to categorise them as a group on their own. Indeed, when I saw the BT video, I felt like I was watching a party political broadcast from the 70's. Things were so much "simpler" then.

Maybe there are just more old women these days......

Perhaps CWG, perhaps

The polling difference seems significant enough to suggest there is something to explore though.

I was always intrigued by the dynamic between Salmond and his opponents. He seems to thrive on trying to be the 'alpha' male, throwing his weight around and adopting almost a bullying, hectoring style.

That arguably worked for him when up against an Iain Gray or the like. And it would sit favourably with a stereotypical perspective where males judged political success on who 'wins'.

It didn't work for him with the likes of Annabel Goldie though, he just couldn't employ the same style and whenever I saw them debate, she trumped him or saw him off, despite having to represent a party that was practically toxic in Scotland.

The flaw in having to defend nationalist ideology is that it isn't consensual, by definition. It depends on arguing that one thing is absolutely better than another thing, it's binary. The reality of people's lives, individually and as a society is much more complex than that and isn't going to be improved by the pattern on the flag fluttering over our civic buildings.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Perhaps CWG, perhaps

The polling difference seems significant enough to suggest there is something to explore though.

I was always intrigued by the dynamic between Salmond and his opponents. He seems to thrive on trying to be the 'alpha' male, throwing his weight around and adopting almost a bullying, hectoring style.

That arguably worked for him when up against an Iain Gray or the like. And it would sit favourably with a stereotypical perspective where males judged political success on who 'wins'.

It didn't work for him with the likes of Annabel Goldie though, he just couldn't employ the same style and whenever I saw them debate, she trumped him or saw him off, despite having to represent a party that was practically toxic in Scotland.

The flaw in having to defend nationalist ideology is that it isn't consensual, by definition. It depends on arguing that one thing is absolutely better than another thing, it's binary. The reality of people's lives, individually and as a society is much more complex than that and isn't going to be improved by the pattern on the flag fluttering over our civic buildings.

No, it's going to improve because of the power that will be brought to the civic buildings close to us. The nicer flags is just a bonus. ;-)

[CropleyWasGod]

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Perhaps CWG, perhaps

The polling difference seems significant enough to suggest there is something to explore though.

I was always intrigued by the dynamic between Salmond and his opponents. He seems to thrive on trying to be the 'alpha' male, throwing his weight around and adopting almost a bullying, hectoring style.

That arguably worked for him when up against an Iain Gray or the like. And it would sit favourably with a stereotypical perspective where males judged political success on who 'wins'.

It didn't work for him with the likes of Annabel Goldie though, he just couldn't employ the same style and whenever I saw them debate, she trumped him or saw him off, despite having to represent a party that was practically toxic in Scotland.

The flaw in having to defend nationalist ideology is that it isn't consensual, by definition. It depends on arguing that one thing is absolutely better than another thing, it's binary. The reality of people's lives, individually and as a society is much more complex than that and isn't going to be improved by the pattern on the flag fluttering over our civic buildings.

But that, for me, is one of the most fascinating things about the debate. It's not just about one thing. People are voting as they do for a whole range of reasons. Some selfish, some altruistic, some ideological, some for personal family reasons, some because of the East Enders issue. All of them are, IMO, valid.

As is the notion that people vote for one guy because they don't like the other guy. Superficial, sure, but it happens in elections.