Scottish Independence

[Beefster]

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I'm not sure about hysterical, irritable maybe? You've been a tad tetchy at times too if we're going to get pass remarkable. ;-)

I'm a Hibs supporter in his 40's with a wife, kid, dog, mortgage, job and lawn that grows faster that triffids. 'A tad tetchy' is my default state.

[JeMeSouviens]

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I'm a Hibs supporter in his 40's with a wife, kid, dog, mortgage, job and lawn that grows faster that triffids. 'A tad tetchy' is my default state.

Hah, got all that, but 2 kids, and teenagers at that.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Maybe but I can completely understand why people don't respect a man with a voting record like his.

Also, I voted for AV but I don't know why it was rejected, maybe because FPTP is easier to understand.

He has always been a slimy Labour careerist. He was a couple of years ahead of me at Uni, edging his way up the greasy pole via the NUS, where he eventually became president. Imagine my surprise when he totally sold out his membership by supporting Nu-Lab's introduction of student fees.

[Moulin Yarns]

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That's just wrong. I left Scotland 10 years ago and see no valid reason why I should have the right to vote in the referendum.

However I don't have the right to vote here and that really p***es me off !

That can't be right, I know of 2 German nationals who are in Scotland for more than 6 months, are resident here at the time of the referendum and as European Citizens both are allowed to vote.

[Peevemor]

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That can't be right, I know of 2 German nationals who are in Scotland for more than 6 months, are resident here at the time of the referendum and as European Citizens both are allowed to vote.

I think we're at cross purposes.

I think it's right that people currently living in Scotland have the right to vote (if they fulfill certain criteria).

I also think it's right that expats like myself do not have the right to vote.

However, I think it's wrong that I don't have the right to vote in France (eg. Presidential elections) even though I've lived, worked and paid taxes here for 10 years.

[Hibrandenburg]

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I'm a Hibs supporter in his 40's with a wife, kid, dog, mortgage, job and lawn that grows faster that triffids. 'A tad tetchy' is my default state.

[Bristolhibby]

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I think we're at cross purposes.

I think it's right that people currently living in Scotland have the right to vote (if they fulfill certain criteria).

I also think it's right that expats like myself do not have the right to vote.

However, I think it's wrong that I don't have the right to vote in France (eg. Presidential elections) even though I've lived, worked and paid taxes here for 10 years.

Can you vote in municipal elections? I presume you get to vote in EU elections.

I guess it must be a quirk of French democracy when it comes to presidential elections. Sadly I don't see it being a major issue to the majority of French.

Is it something that could be taken up through the EU as to me it seems like discrimination based on Nationality.

J

[Moulin Yarns]

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I think we're at cross purposes.

I think it's right that people currently living in Scotland have the right to vote (if they fulfill certain criteria).

I also think it's right that expats like myself do not have the right to vote.

However, I think it's wrong that I don't have the right to vote in France (eg. Presidential elections) even though I've lived, worked and paid taxes here for 10 years.

That's what I meant, surely if you are resident then you should get the vote where you live and work. It begs the question why foreign nationals temporarily resident can vote here, but you, as a foreign national but permanently resident cant vote where you are. Bonkers!!

[Hibrandenburg]

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Can you vote in municipal elections? I presume you get to vote in EU elections.

I guess it must be a quirk of French democracy when it comes to presidential elections. Sadly I don't see it being a major issue to the majority of French.

Is it something that could be taken up through the EU as to me it seems like discrimination based on Nationality.

J

I can vote in municipal elections over here and have even been given the vote in General elections. The last two general elections I was given the wrong ballot paper after the election supervisor just glanced at my name and photo on my passport whilst cross-checking it with my election letter.

[Peevemor]

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Can you vote in municipal elections? I presume you get to vote in EU elections.

I guess it must be a quirk of French democracy when it comes to presidential elections. Sadly I don't see it being a major issue to the majority of French.

Is it something that could be taken up through the EU as to me it seems like discrimination based on Nationality.

J

I can vote in the municipal (only since 2011) and European elections. A "full" vote was a major issue in the run up to the last presidential elections. Hollande said he was up for it, then changed his mind at the last minute. Sarkozy during a televised debate said no, because there would be too many muslims (I nearly fell off my chaise-longue)!

[JeMeSouviens]

I must admit I was quite a bit of the way through the original before I realised it wasn't a spoof.

[Moulin Yarns]

I am watching and following this

https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/indyref

[7 Hills]

Not that the Scotland International team is high on my list of priorities for an Independent Scotland, but the article at the attached link is interesting nonetheless. http://en.ria.ru/analysis/20140828/1...rnational.html

[Hibrandenburg]

http://fbcdn-video-a.akamaihd.net/hv...0c6fd731aefda8

[Future17]

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http://fbcdn-video-a.akamaihd.net/hv...0c6fd731aefda8

That makes the vomit rise in my throat, but it's important to remember that those shown in that video are, I hope, in the minority. It would probably be very easy to make a video montage of intense, anti-English sentiment being expressed by residents of Scotland in all walks of life.

I has the "pleasure" of speaking to someone today who wanted the Electoral Commission to resign its role in the referendum because its bus shelter adverts which publicise the voting guide were "too Scottish" which meant they favoured a "Yes" vote. The person asked why the adverts depicted a tourist version of Scotland instead of a quaint, English village which would "make people vote no".

This person was not the first I've encountered who fits the stereotype of an anti-Scottish "No" voter. It seems impossible for them to understand that "No" voters are capable of loving Scotland (in all its beauty) just as much as "Yes" voters, despite the fact they claim to be on the "No" side. Don't get me wrong, I've also experienced this extreme paranoia from those on the "Yes" side, but all it does is exacerbate the elements of "debate" which ordinarily turn so many people away from politics.

I think part of the reason that "Yes" seems to be behind in the polls is that our culture all too often reinforces the negative connotations of where we currently are as a nation and it is very difficult to go against the tide to sell people on where we could be as an independent nation.

[speedy_gonzales]

Not very happy tonight, got a text from a mate saying well done on voting yes, I texts back asking WTF, he said my FaceBook profile said I was going to vote yes. This was news to me, turns out some innocuous link I clicked (funny vid) ended up adding a post to my profile stating I was going to an event on the 18th and voting YES. I'd seen this on other people's timeline and just assumed they were. Turns out it's just spam or some very clever cyber Nats. Not very happy as it gives the illusion that everyone on FB is voting yes,,,,

[Hibrandenburg]

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Not very happy tonight, got a text from a mate saying well done on voting yes, I texts back asking WTF, he said my FaceBook profile said I was going to vote yes. This was news to me, turns out some innocuous link I clicked (funny vid) ended up adding a post to my profile stating I was going to an event on the 18th and voting YES. I'd seen this on other people's timeline and just assumed they were. Turns out it's just spam or some very clever cyber Nats. Not very happy as it gives the illusion that everyone on FB is voting yes,,,,

Think yourself lucky, I supposedly disposed of my socks in a very undignified manner.

[Glory Lurker]

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Not very happy tonight, got a text from a mate saying well done on voting yes, I texts back asking WTF, he said my FaceBook profile said I was going to vote yes. This was news to me, turns out some innocuous link I clicked (funny vid) ended up adding a post to my profile stating I was going to an event on the 18th and voting YES. I'd seen this on other people's timeline and just assumed they were. Turns out it's just spam or some very clever cyber Nats. Not very happy as it gives the illusion that everyone on FB is voting yes,,,,

You are joking here, right?

[speedy_gonzales]

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You are joking here, right?

I promise you I'm not, like I said, I got a text from a friend. Checked out my FB profile and right enough it said I was going to an event (on the 18th, voting YES etc). I've genuinely no idea how it got there, I thought I must have clicked something but on hindsight I wasn't even near a PC or on my phone when the post was made. I then had a look on my news feed and noticed a few other friends had the exact same post. When I messaged them about it, it turns out some were aware of it but others weren't.
Not exactly sure how it's happening, my profile has settings on it that prevent others tagging me at check-ins or in pics, would love to think it's something innocent but I still feel it's an underhanded way to behave through this referendum.

[Glory Lurker]

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I promise you I'm not, like I said, I got a text from a friend. Checked out my FB profile and right enough it said I was going to an event (on the 18th, voting YES etc). I've genuinely no idea how it got there, I thought I must have clicked something but on hindsight I wasn't even near a PC or on my phone when the post was made. I then had a look on my news feed and noticed a few other friends had the exact same post. When I messaged them about it, it turns out some were aware of it but others weren't.
Not exactly sure how it's happening, my profile has settings on it that prevent others tagging me at check-ins or in pics, would love to think it's something innocent but I still feel it's an underhanded way to behave through this referendum.

Okay, i'll take your word for it. I find it a bit of a stretch though to think there's someone with the ability to hack Facebook and all they use it for is getting folk to say they're voting Yes. I'd at least get Maggie Gyllenhaal's page to have a post saying how much she fancies me!

[Moulin Yarns]

The Better Together stand is doing a roaring trade in Pitlochry, 5 staff and NO interest by the public.

I'm thinking of giving them a visit later, just to get some answers, you understand.

I intend trying this approach

Imagine Scotland was already independent and we were about to have a referendum on whether to join a union with the rest of the UK.
Could the Pro-union side convince us that getting together would be better when we were told what would happen to Scotland after such a union? Some bullet points from the campaign…
-Your main Parliament will move 600 miles away, and your MPs will be in a tiny minority & will therefore have limited ability to effect policy on your behalf
-Scotland will get a government it didn’t vote for.
-All of your oil and gas revenues will be handed over to the treasury in London.
-Even though not 1 inch of track will touch Scottish soil your taxpayers will contribute £4.2bn to the HS2 project.
-Your taxpayers will also subsidise the crossrail project to the tune of £4.2bn
-The biggest nuclear weapons facility in Western Europe will be built on the river Clyde, just 30 miles from your largest city.
-Even though you only have 8.2% of the UK’s population you will contribute 9.9% of the UK’s total tax take yet will only receive 9.3% of that tax take back to spend in Scotland (you will lose £4.4bn per year to the UK treasury)
-You will devolve all of the economic levers you have used to shape your economy directly to London and will now only have control of 7% of your economy
-Even though 79% of Scottish MP's voted against it we will privitise your publicly owned mail service
-Even though 91% of Scottish MPs voted against the bedroom tax in your parliament, we will impose it.
-Even though 82% of Scottish MP's believed that a VAT increase would be detrimental to your economy, we will impose a VAT increase.
-You will join a country whose health and education services are rapidly being privatised.
-Now and again you’ll get dragged into an illegal foreign war.
-An austerity budget will be imposed from London cutting jobs and threatening vital public services even though 81% of your MP's voted against the cuts.
-The financial regulation system will be so weak and so lax that your whole economy will be brought to the brink of collapse.
-The most weak and vulnerable in society, instead of getting the protection and support they deserve will be interrogated and humiliated in an effort to get them off the meagre levels of support to which they are entitled.

Ask yourself, would you vote for such a package?
Would you vote for that Better Together campaign?

[James.]

This poll should really read 231 for yes and 87 for no as I changed my mind a while back

[Speedy]

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The Better Together stand is doing a roaring trade in Pitlochry, 5 staff and NO interest by the public.

I'm thinking of giving them a visit later, just to get some answers, you understand.

I intend trying this approach

Imagine Scotland was already independent and we were about to have a referendum on whether to join a union with the rest of the UK.
Could the Pro-union side convince us that getting together would be better when we were told what would happen to Scotland after such a union? Some bullet points from the campaign…
-Your main Parliament will move 600 miles away, and your MPs will be in a tiny minority & will therefore have limited ability to effect policy on your behalf
-Scotland will get a government it didn’t vote for.
-All of your oil and gas revenues will be handed over to the treasury in London.
-Even though not 1 inch of track will touch Scottish soil your taxpayers will contribute £4.2bn to the HS2 project.
-Your taxpayers will also subsidise the crossrail project to the tune of £4.2bn
-The biggest nuclear weapons facility in Western Europe will be built on the river Clyde, just 30 miles from your largest city.
-Even though you only have 8.2% of the UK’s population you will contribute 9.9% of the UK’s total tax take yet will only receive 9.3% of that tax take back to spend in Scotland (you will lose £4.4bn per year to the UK treasury)
-You will devolve all of the economic levers you have used to shape your economy directly to London and will now only have control of 7% of your economy
-Even though 79% of Scottish MP's voted against it we will privitise your publicly owned mail service
-Even though 91% of Scottish MPs voted against the bedroom tax in your parliament, we will impose it.
-Even though 82% of Scottish MP's believed that a VAT increase would be detrimental to your economy, we will impose a VAT increase.
-You will join a country whose health and education services are rapidly being privatised.
-Now and again you’ll get dragged into an illegal foreign war.
-An austerity budget will be imposed from London cutting jobs and threatening vital public services even though 81% of your MP's voted against the cuts.
-The financial regulation system will be so weak and so lax that your whole economy will be brought to the brink of collapse.
-The most weak and vulnerable in society, instead of getting the protection and support they deserve will be interrogated and humiliated in an effort to get them off the meagre levels of support to which they are entitled.

Ask yourself, would you vote for such a package?
Would you vote for that Better Together campaign?

I see posts in this style from both sides.

What they have in common is that they are so clearly biased that they lose credibility.

[Mr Grieves]

Just out of interest, have any former do not knows or anybody changed sides, based on the discussion on this thread?

[Beefster]

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I see posts in this style from both sides.

What they have in common is that they are so clearly biased that they lose credibility.

They're also generally copied and pasted from somewhere else and not even the poster's words.

[Just Alf]

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Just out of interest, have any former do not knows or anybody changed sides, based on the discussion on this thread?

Sort of... I was don't know / no'ish leaning. I dropped the no'ish bit quite quickly I guess, then have steadily shifted to a firmer and firmer yes.

[CapitalGreen]

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They're also generally copied and pasted from somewhere else and not even the poster's words.

Heaven forbid.

[Hibrandenburg]

Just watched Salmond give Jim Murphy a verbal kicking on Sky News. Love him or hate him he's a smooth operator.

[Moulin Yarns]

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They're also generally copied and pasted from somewhere else and not even the poster's words.

COPY AND PASTE ALERT

I am posting this from a self-declared 'undecided' billionaire businessman. I have posted some of his observations in the past as I think they help people get some unbiased perspective compared to News websites. If that is such a bad thing then I really worry about the future.




Last night I spent the evening in my old home town of New Cumnock at a ‘tattiefest’ – a music and tattie combo; they are still pretty inventive there!
The town, and ultimately my dad Campbell’s grocery store there, was decimated by the pit closures when the notion of a job for life finally ended as the nationalised pits, steel and shipbuilding industries collapsed.
So as the music skirled and the tatties were consumed inevitably the conversation turned to the Referendum and I think this is an important and positive aspect of this Referendum people are engaged, I also think that the debates that happen between friends and family are proving more productive than the claim and counter claim we get from our politicians more later. Unsurprisingly the discussion wasn’t led by Trident, Euro, EU membership or the currency, it was about how a yes or no vote could affect the daily lives there and rightly so.
If we go would the pension be safe, how many more jobs would be created, could there be new investment in New Cumnock and the surrounding areas and would we need a passport to get to the Yorkshire Dales? Will we still be able to afford free prescriptions, education and elderly care? And what if we stay with the UK what changes then; we’ve had three different offers of more powers but which one, or combination do we get and when?
All these points are absolutely bang on and require an answer, an answer I’m saddened to say I expect from neither camp. Business people like me are absolutely concerned with the currency issue as it will have a distinct and material impact on both rUK and Scotland, most people just want to know will I be better off, have more opportunity for my family in or out of the Union? It’s a good question.
Fundamentally sadly that brings us back to the currency question.
What saddens me most about this referendum is the willingness of both sides for brinkmanship, to play with normal people’s lives, the one’s who can’t up sticks if they don’t like the yes or no answer we offer on the 18th of September.
On the one hand we have Alex Salmond and John Swinney declaring that if we don’t negotiate a currency union we are not paying our share of the UK’s debts. There are two crucial points to note in that assertion.
The first is this, if we do agree to a currency union our public finances will in absolute terms be governed by the UK, or more precisely the Bank of England. Is that what Yes voters are signing up for because I am struggling hard to see how with such constraints Alex’s White Paper vision can be delivered on that basis – perhaps he could explain?
Secondly say we take the brinkmanship to the end point, fail to get a currency union and default on our debts. I think we all know when walking into a bank for a loan having just failed to pay off a massive debt elsewhere what the bank manager might say – countries are no different. To be extreme will the headline be ‘Scotland signs deal with Wonga for long-term capital requirements?’
Be assured if we go down that route the cost of capital will inflate markedly and thus we the taxpayer need either to generate more taxes, through building more successful businesses, or cut back on the very services Alex wants to protect.
So there are two positions set out by Alex both of which have very material consequences to the questions posed by the people of New Cumnock I talked to…
The people we democratically elected in the Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem parties have united in saying no to a currency union in the hope of exposing the perils of Plan B.
But here’s the big question that exposes their duplicity in all of this – if they can unite to say no to currency union why is it they can’t unite to say yes to an agreed package of devolved powers: what is it we get if we tick no on the 18th of September. Answers please before the 18th Mr. Cameron, Clegg and Milliband.
On the one hand Alex wants us signing up for a walk in the fog with cliffs nearby, while Alistair and the unionists want us blindfolded knowing only what lies behind us and not in front of us.
Most undecided people I speak to say this – if it’s more of the same that’s not that appealing, the trouble is I don’t know what we will get if I vote no and I’m unclear if independence will make me better or worse off.
Curiously, to the point of playing with people’s lives, when Alex Salmond sat down with David Cameron to define the question we would be asked on the 18th of September, Alex asked for a second question – in essence do you want more devolution for Scotland? Cameron refused and to my mind cast the dice that now has brinkmanship on every side.

[Moulin Yarns]

This is just for a laugh, folks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KphfN-Bk7M