Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

[dangermouse]

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And as such, in a sporting environment it is seen as cheating. For there to be real financial fair play, the powers need to apply proper punishments to clubs that enter administration.

My suggestions;
Instant relegation to the 3rd tier (at the highest)
Banned from representing Scotland in Europe for 10 years
Signing ban until the club starts to make operating profit, with the signing ban renewed every year they make a loss or the wages/turnover ratio goes above a certain number (say 80%).

I thought that was what financial fair play was all about. It obviously isn't working.

One flaw in your plan is the signing ban. The team would have to be able to sign U21 players at least otherwise as existing players left for better contracts in higher leagues they'd have no players left. Might have to be on a one out one in basis like how Hearts brought in that prolific striker from down south.

[greenginger]

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The ' it's not fair' brigade need to realise that the owners of Hearts lost everything when they went into admin.
The new owners can't and shouldn't be held liable for pre admin debts.
It's the business's customers that I suspect you want to see punished but that can't happen. If DFS go bust, nobody comes round and repossess your sofa. That's life.

The owners of Hearts lost nothing. They had nothing to start with, everything came from funds now being repaid by the Lithuanian state.

I am also sure the owners managed to line their own pockets from cash generated by HOMFC instead of paying taxes, business rates, utilities , police , etc etc etc.

The new owners of HOMFC will have an extra 2 Scottish Cup wins on the club record to big themselves up with.

Re. your analogy to DFS. If the sofa turned out to be stolen it might well be repossessed , especially if the " customer " knew damn well it was stolen.

[Crazyhorse]

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I disagree. The new owners should be made to repay the unpaid tax. The previous owner was Vlad and he is/was a crook and a conman. Someone needs to pay these debts, that is why we all pay more. Your sofa thing is just daft.

I understood Ozy's point to be that we, the Hibs support, would like to see Hearts customers, i.e. the jambo supporting plums, punished. Because we dislike/hate etc them. The people who actually got punished (along with creditors, charities, Lithuanian pensioners) were the Hearts shareholders and that is as it usually is in this sort of situation. I happen to think the fleecing of the jambos over and over and over again for the past two years has been a very enjoyable spectable and hope it will continue. All the sevco supporters had to do was pay for a season ticket and start climbing through the divisions again.

[Ozyhibby]

We still don't have proper financial fair play regs in Scotland. We have punishments for when clubs go into admin but no way of policing clubs spending while it happens. This is a failure of the SFA.

[VivaHiberña]

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And as such, in a sporting environment it is seen as cheating. For there to be real financial fair play, the powers need to apply proper punishments to clubs that enter administration.

My suggestions;
Instant relegation to the 3rd tier (at the highest)
Banned from representing Scotland in Europe for 10 years
Signing ban until the club starts to make operating profit, with the signing ban renewed every year they make a loss or the wages/turnover ratio goes above a certain number (say 80%).

This seems a bit harsh. As already mentioned, you're punishing the new regime, which would probably act as enough of a deterrent to prevent anyone taking over a club that runs into bother. This would essentially mean that any club that gets into financial trouble would have almost no way out if it and that would kill every Scottish club that enters administration. I know we all want blood but we need to think what if it wasn't someone we hate?

I'll remind you that part of Tom Farmer's plan was to take Hibs into receivership (what's now called administration) to weed out the bad assets. Would he have saved Hibs if your suggested sanctions were in place?

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I disagree. The new owners should be made to repay the unpaid tax. The previous owner was Vlad and he is/was a crook and a conman. Someone needs to pay these debts, that is why we all pay more. Your sofa thing is just daft.

And the new owners are not crooks (probably). See above for why this would kill any club that goes into admin.

It is possible for a football club to genuinely be the victims of an a inept owner (eg. Hibs) and we need to legislate for that possibility too.

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We still don't have proper financial fair play regs in Scotland. We have punishments for when clubs go into admin but no way of policing clubs spending while it happens. This is a failure of the SFA.

There needs to be more transparency and accountability to the SFA, which should be protecting clubs from themselves (I know, I know) as well as others from cheats. Don't let clubs cheat and don't let them drag the reputation of Scottish football down with them when they get caught.

What should be considered though, was that both Hearts and Rangers won competitions despite having gained an unfair advantage by breaking the rules. This is the very definition of cheating and as such a fair punishment would be stripping of all titles that can be proven to have been won with an improper advantage. It genuinely astonishes me that Rangers were let off with it* and that Hearts' cup titles haven't been discussed like this yet.



*Assuming we consider them to be the same club. Either way the record should show "No winner" for those seasons.

[BarneyK]

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We still don't have proper financial fair play regs in Scotland. We have punishments for when clubs go into admin but no way of policing clubs spending while it happens. This is a failure of the SFA.

correct

[EH6 Hibby]

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...in which case all those individuals who go bankrupt, whether by their own fault or not, should be denied public resources until they pay their Council Tax. Yeah?

Why not? I'm not saying every penny should be paid back immediately, but put a payment plan in place to repay the money over a set affordable period.

I doubt the majority of private companies that have been done out of money will do business with the people that shafted them, so why should the public sector have to?

[Nando™]

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This seems a bit harsh. As already mentioned, you're punishing the new regime, which would probably act as enough of a deterrent to prevent anyone taking over a club that runs into bother. This would essentially mean that any club that gets into financial trouble would have almost no way out if it and that would kill every Scottish club that enters administration. I know we all want blood but we need to think what if it wasn't someone we hate?
I'll remind you that part of Tom Farmer's plan was to take Hibs into receivership (what's now called administration) to weed out the bad assets. Would he have saved Hibs if your suggested sanctions were in place?

It maybe does prevent future owners, but these ideas would very likely scare every club into ensuring this never happens and to play fair. Also, the fans could influence how the regime is managed. These are the people who should, IMO, be the ones that feel the hit the most. If they take the "good times" without any remorse or protest at what was happening then they deserve everything that comes their way.

Maybe STF would have or wouldn't have, but maybe we wouldn't have been in that position if the deterrents were there in the first place.

[Seveno]

The football authorities were too slow to act over Hearts. There should be an immediate points deduction for the following offences:

• Failure to lodge annual report and accounts on time
• Failure to pay yaxes on due date
• Failure to pay wages on due date.

The penalty should double with each suucessive offence.

If this had been in place, Hearts would have been relegated long before they went into Administration.

[Mikey09]

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We still don't have proper financial fair play regs in Scotland. We have punishments for when clubs go into admin but no way of policing clubs spending while it happens. This is a failure of the SFA.

One of many many failures....

[MrSmith]

This seems a bit harsh. As already mentioned, you're punishing the new regime, which would probably act as enough of a deterrent to prevent anyone taking over a club that runs into bother. This would essentially mean that any club that gets into financial trouble would have almost no way out if it and that would kill every Scottish club that enters administration. I know we all want blood but we need to think what if it wasn't someone we hate?

However, most of those involved in FOH and Anne Budge herself, new fair well what was going on and did not act at the time therefore, certain aspects of punishment should be upheld!

I'll remind you that part of Tom Farmer's plan was to take Hibs into receivership (what's now called administration) to weed out the bad assets. Would he have saved Hibs if your suggested sanctions were in place?

STF, weeded out those toxic assets, sold them off, paid every creditor and issued shares to fans.

And the new owners are not crooks (probably). See above for why this would kill any club that goes into admin.

The new owners of HMFC new exactly what was happening behind the scenes, inaction nor ignorance negates association!

It is possible for a football club to genuinely be the victims of an a inept owner (eg. Hibs) and we need to legislate for that possibility too.

It very much is possible however, Vlad was known and sent packing by how many Scottish teams, 3?

What should be considered though, was that both Hearts and Rangers won competitions despite having gained an unfair advantage by breaking the rules. This is the very definition of cheating and as such a fair punishment would be stripping of all titles that can be proven to have been won with an improper advantage. It genuinely astonishes me that Rangers were let off with it* and that Hearts' cup titles haven't been discussed like this yet.

All titles and trophies should be removed without question nor comeback! Also the SPFL should ensure from now, that any unpaid tax by clubs entering administration/liquidation will not be treated as a newco, sevco, bidco etc, until the public purse has been fully settled!

[Weststandwanab]

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The ' it's not fair' brigade need to realise that the owners of Hearts lost everything when they went into admin.
The new owners can't and shouldn't be held liable for pre admin debts.
It's the business's customers that I suspect you want to see punished but that can't happen. If DFS go bust, nobody comes round and repossess your sofa. That's life.

Why would they take a sofa that has been paid for ?

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

I bought a new corner sofa from Land of Leather at Straiton about 5 years ago. Went in on the Saturday, signed up, paid etc. It was to be delivered the next Wednesday, stopped on the Monday night for another look at it and the shop had shut down. Sign on the door saying they had been liquidated!! 21 weeks later it arrived. This has no relevance to anything really, just wanted to join in the sofa chat

[Spike Mandela]

Passed Gary Locke with his wife and kids in M & S the Gyle today. He looked like a man without a care in the world. Anyone suggesting Hearts haven't "gotten away with it" haven't looked at his smug pus.

Wonder if he was buying a sofa? Hope they got him to pay up front.

[Billy Whizz]

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Passed Gary Locke with his wife and kids in M & S the Gyle today. He looked like a man without a care in the world. Anyone suggesting Hearts haven't "gotten away with it" haven't looked at his smug pus.

Wonder if he was buying a sofa? Hope they got him to pay up front.

I saw him today also at the Gyle, coming out of NEXT. Looked smug as well

[VivaHiberña]

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However, most of those involved in FOH and Anne Budge herself, new fair well what was going on and did not act at the time therefore, certain aspects of punishment should be upheld!

The new owners of HMFC new exactly what was happening behind the scenes, inaction nor ignorance negates association!

A) We don't know that for certain.
B) You can't punish someone for something they might have known about (Romanov et al., however, should of course be brought to justice).
C) You've not really answered my point, if we had these really harsh penalties no one would ever have tried to save Hearts. As much as we might hate them we can't just let Scottish clubs keep dying.

Lets imagine FOH never happened and the Scandinavians were named as preferred bidders by BDO. Should their hypothetical 'regime' be punished for Romanov's actions? The chances are they wouldn't have seen trying to rescue Hearts as worth their while.

While in their case that's probably fair, what about an innocent club?

STF, weeded out those toxic assets, sold them off, paid every creditor and issued shares to fans.

I'm not disputing that, but imagine Hibs had had a massive signing ban, automatic relegation, the other suggested penalties etc. We'd never have won the League Cup in 1992 because of the previous owners' mistakes forcing STF's hand yet by the apparent logic the fans should have been punished for not pressuring the board earlier. If we're going to apply draconian sanctions we need to be consistent.

It very much is possible however, Vlad was known and sent packing by how many Scottish teams, 3?

In Vlad's case, yes he was. But my point is that people can slip through nets and not every new owner will be as obviously dodgy as Vlad. What if we were talking about another club and another owner where the fans had genuinely been fleeced? I'm not saying there shouldn't be sanctions but lets be proportionate and consider all the circumstances that come into play without letting our contempt for the **** blind us to the big picture.

All titles and trophies should be removed without question nor comeback!

At least we agree on something.

Also the SPFL should ensure from now, that any unpaid tax by clubs entering administration/liquidation will not be treated as a newco, sevco, bidco etc, until the public purse has been fully settled!

This gets tricky though. If they have to repay HMRC why not small businesses, private individuals etc? There's no easy answer so as much as I hate to say it the SFA are probably best off as they are letting the law deal with this while "protecting their own" with regards to football debts.

And breathe...

[Kaiser1962]

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I'll remind you that part of Tom Farmer's plan was to take Hibs into receivership (what's now called administration) to weed out the bad assets. Would he have saved Hibs if your suggested sanctions were in place?

The receivership part was only deemed necessary because David Rowland wanted an excessive amount for his shareholding.

[Weststandwanab]

Where are the multi quote complainers ?

[Kaiser1962]

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Where are the multi quote complainers ?

Good point!

[#FromTheCapital]

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Where are the multi quote complainers ?

We've decided to start complaining about hibs instead ;-)

[Weststandwanab]

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Good point!

Thank you.

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We've decided to start complaining about hibs instead ;-)

In that case I hope you revert to complaining about me soon.

[Tynie01011973]

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A)

I'm not disputing that, but imagine Hibs had had a massive signing ban, automatic relegation, the other suggested penalties etc. We'd never have won the League Cup in 1992 because of the previous owners' mistakes forcing STF's hand yet by the apparent logic the fans should have been punished for not pressuring the board earlier. If we're going to apply draconian sanctions we need to be consistent.

And breathe...

*Cough cough* '91

[Jack]

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The ' it's not fair' brigade need to realise that the owners of Hearts lost everything when they went into admin.
The new owners can't and shouldn't be held liable for pre admin debts.
It's the business's customers that I suspect you want to see punished but that can't happen. If DFS go bust, nobody comes round and repossess your sofa. That's life.

I bought a sofa from Reids furniture place. My sofa was bust but Reids did nothing about it. ********!

[Keith_M]

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I'm not disputing that, but imagine Hibs had had a massive signing ban, automatic relegation, the other suggested penalties etc. We'd never have won the League Cup in 1992 because of the previous owners' mistakes forcing STF's hand yet by the apparent logic the fans should have been punished for not pressuring the board earlier. If we're going to apply draconian sanctions we need to be consistent.

I'd suspected by your previous comments that you know nothing about the events of 1990 & 91. Thanks for confirming that with the comment above.

Pray tell, oh wise one, WHY would Hibs have received the penalties you mentioned above for an Administration event if they did not even go into Administration? You seem to be perpetuating Yam fantasies of the events of the time, things that never happened.

Oh and Hibs won the League cup in 91, not 92.

[lapsedhibee]

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I bought a sofa from Reids furniture place. My sofa was bust but Reids did nothing about it. ********!

After Hibs won the league cup in 1993 I saw Gareth Evans and a wumman looking at a new sofa in Reid's at Picardy Place. Presumably looking to spend his winning bonus. If the sofa turned out faulty, Hibs should hand back the trophy.

[southsider]

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After Hibs won the league cup in 1993 I saw Gareth Evans and a wumman looking at a new sofa in Reid's at Picardy Place. Presumably looking to spend his winning bonus. If the sofa turned out faulty, Hibs should hand back the trophy.

Yip and STF should pay everyones debts and go live in a shoebox in the middle of the road, eating hot gravel.

[jdships]

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The receivership part was only deemed necessary because David Rowland wanted an excessive amount for his shareholding.

100% correct and thanks to STF and his " team" this was quickly sorted out !!!
Administration was never discussed other than in the scenario you mention

[CropleyWasGod]

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Why not? I'm not saying every penny should be paid back immediately, but put a payment plan in place to repay the money over a set affordable period.

I doubt the majority of private companies that have been done out of money will do business with the people that shafted them, so why should the public sector have to?

If that were law, then it's likely that most administrations would fail. Liquidation would become the norm for insolvent companies, which would defeat the object of the admin provisions.

[Stax]

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I bought a new corner sofa from Land of Leather at Straiton about 5 years ago. Went in on the Saturday, signed up, paid etc. It was to be delivered the next Wednesday, stopped on the Monday night for another look at it and the shop had shut down. Sign on the door saying they had been liquidated!! 21 weeks later it arrived. This has no relevance to anything really, just wanted to join in the sofa chat

My favourite post for a while on here

[Peevemor]

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I bought a new corner sofa from Land of Leather at Straiton about 5 years ago. Went in on the Saturday, signed up, paid etc. It was to be delivered the next Wednesday, stopped on the Monday night for another look at it and the shop had shut down. Sign on the door saying they had been liquidated!! 21 weeks later it arrived. This has no relevance to anything really, just wanted to join in the sofa chat

Sofa so good.