Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

[Springbank]

Always amuses me that hearts fans (and plenty Hibs fans) forget that anyone can win a cup final 5-1 (our last cup win springs to mind)

Also most teams can lose these games 5-1 (check 1996 for reference, rangers vs hearts)

We just don't tend to go overboard about it
And we don't find ourselves going out of business

Is that denial or is that just plain old truth?
Perhaps our eh11 shrinks can help me out here??

[Dashing Bob S]

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I think all of this stuff pointing out that we also were in debt and had financial problems sees them heading towards experimentation. In that they have accepted they are in a mess, and are now looking at what happens after things go wrong.

Regrettably they have reached this stage too late to make any real difference. A recurring theme on here, over the years, ha been, living beyond your means ends in tears. In fact it is a schism that continues in our support.

If they could only have realised earlier that the same rules apply to them as apply to us they may have been able to avoid this. Instead they truly believed all the big team nonsense and thought we were unique in our folly.

They are a big team, relatively speaking. To other outfits in Div 2/Lowland League.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Always amuses me that hearts fans (and plenty Hibs fans) forget that anyone can win a cup final 5-1 (our last cup win springs to mind)

Also most teams can lose these games 5-1 (check 1996 for reference, rangers vs hearts)

We just don't tend to go overboard about it
And we don't find ourselves going out of business

Is that denial or is that just plain old truth?
Perhaps our eh11 shrinks can help me out here??

It was all worth it. (At least it was when they thought it came free of charge,)

[GreenLake]

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They are as up to date with Elizabeth Kubler-Ross as they are with everything else. It is now a seven stage model and the first stage is shock or disbelief followed by denial. There is little point explaining the rest to them as they are stuck between these two.

They do anything they can to avoid 7, even living an 8 day week.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Nope. CWG will confirm your musings as highly factual, if only he would tell us where BDO will get their fee from. :-)

----No effin funny..... oh yez are no effin funy........

v v v v v v v v v v v

[grunt]

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There's been a lot of comments about money laundering on this thread and I've been trying to get my around how this has worked in that the Liths have chucked millions at Hearts but quite how this was cleaned up and recycled back to Romanov in any meaningful amounts I'm not sure. I know various members of his family and other random Liths were employed and were no doubt well rewarded either through Hearts' books or directly from Lithuania. However even if the former is true, as a percentage of what was put into Hearts only a small proportion would be cleaned up even by money laundering standards.

We can only speculate as to the source of the money used to prop up Hearts (and we all have our suspicions) but I can't see how Romanov was recycling significant amounts.

The results of the criminal investigations in Lithuania will make interesting reading I think.

I think the most suspicious time was when they sold Craig Gordon for £9m and still made a loss. There must have been some unusual items of expenditure going through the accounts that year. And even in the most recent set of accounts, they had a highly suspicious charge payable to Kaunas FC. There must be one or two transactions which might bear investigation.

[tomf]

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All excellent points.

I would clarify the bit in bold, however. If the CVA goes through, the land and property are part of the deal. They are owned by HMFC. Therefore UBIG and UKIO transferring the shares in HMFC to FOH/AB effectively transfers the PBS as well.

There is no separate deal for the PBS, if that's what you mean. £2.5m gets the lot.

I am happy to stand corrected. My view was based on my understanding that the ground was basically held as surety against a loan and my belief would be that, if the loan repayments have not been maintained, then the deeds are effectively the property of the lender. That may not be the case but I had thought it would be different from the shares. I presume that the other assets, namely, the playing staff under contract who may have a transfer value are also included in the deal. That would mean that shares once valued at £28.3 million being sold for £50K and a ground, valued at £20.5 million in September 2004 being sold for something like £2 million; plus whatever the relevant members of the current playing squad might be worth also being included does make one wonder if the creditors in Lithuania might want to consider the deal before agreeing to anything. This might already have been agreed and resolved by the CVA but my understanding was that the creditors would vote on its acceptance. That too may be a foregone concusion but I wouldn't be taking anything for granted if it were me. They do have calculators in Lithuania.

[Dashing Bob S]

Those blasted shares arrived yet fawlty?

[CropleyWasGod]

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I am happy to stand corrected. My view was based on my understanding that the ground was basically held as surety against a loan and my belief would be that, if the loan repayments have not been maintained, then the deeds are effectively the property of the lender. That may not be the case but I had thought it would be different from the shares. I presume that the other assets, namely, the playing staff under contract who may have a transfer value are also included in the deal. That would mean that shares once valued at £28.3 million being sold for £50K and a ground, valued at £20.5 million in September 2004 being sold for something like £2 million; plus whatever the relevant members of the current playing squad might be worth also being included does make one wonder if the creditors in Lithuania might want to consider the deal before agreeing to anything. This might already have been agreed and resolved by the CVA but my understanding was that the creditors would vote on its acceptance. That too may be a foregone concusion but I wouldn't be taking anything for granted if it were me. They do have calculators in Lithuania.

Cheers.

The CVA has still to be formally approved by the UKIO creditors (in effect, the Insurance guys,whose name I keep forgetting, as they have the voting power.) Whether they will vote for it is still unknown. It may well be nodded through and given the famous rubber stamp. It may be questioned.

[Joe6-2]

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Those blasted shares arrived yet fawlty?

They certainly are fawlty!

[jacomo]

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I think the most suspicious time was when they sold Craig Gordon for £9m and still made a loss. There must have been some unusual items of expenditure going through the accounts that year. And even in the most recent set of accounts, they had a highly suspicious charge payable to Kaunas FC. There must be one or two transactions which might bear investigation.

How about the fact that wages seemed to be paid each month via a bank transfer from Lithuania (as became clear when they started having problems). And as mentioned above, large chunks of cash were leaving Edinburgh in return for Lithuania. If you were laundering money, this seems like a way to set it up: cash from as yet unknown sources in, cash from legitimate trading out.

We shall see what the investigators find out.

[Kato]

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How about the fact that wages seemed to be paid each month via a bank transfer from Lithuania (as became clear when they started having problems). And as mentioned above, large chunks of cash were leaving Edinburgh in return for Lithuania. If you were laundering money, this seems like a way to set it up: cash from as yet unknown sources in, cash from legitimate trading out.

Way back when Vlad first arrived a discussion took place on here as to how money could be laundered through Hearts. The above was just one scenario mentioned.

[leggeto]

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I think the most suspicious time was when they sold Craig Gordon for £9m and still made a loss. There must have been some unusual items of expenditure going through the accounts that year. And even in the most recent set of accounts, they had a highly suspicious charge payable to Kaunas FC. There must be one or two transactions which might bear investigation.

that got spent on fuel for nades Lamborghini

[Coco Bryce]

Couple of my mates attended the Willie Bauld memorial dinner at Tynie last night. One of them said a lot of talk by many attendees was how useless and unprofessional Barry Anderson has been over the last year or so. Even they hate him

[Jack Hackett]

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Couple of my mates attended the Willie Bauld memorial dinner at Tynie last night. One of them said a lot of talk by many attendees was how useless and unprofessional Barry Anderson has been over the last year or so. Even they hate him

I don't hate #allisbarry as such. It just annoys me that such a useless prat is employed at a level way above his abilities. Office pencil sharpener would be a better use of his talents

[Kato]

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Couple of my mates attended the Willie Bauld memorial dinner at Tynie last night. One of them said a lot of talk by many attendees was how useless and unprofessional Barry Anderson has been over the last year or so. Even they hate him

They only noticed over the last year or so?

For the whole of Vlad's tenure he soft soaped them with chat like "corridors of power at Tynecastle", "Mr Romanov's ambition" and "self-sufficient".

Bet they liked that sort of unprofessionalism.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Couple of my mates attended the Willie Bauld memorial dinner at Tynie last night. One of them said a lot of talk by many attendees was how useless and unprofessional Barry Anderson has been over the last year or so. Even they hate him

He's tried to be their pal, and now they are turning on him and saying its all his fault. The fact is they haven't needed anyone to point out the shambles - it's been staring them in the face for years, in the shape of a stand built in 1914.

The minute Vlad told them about his plan to replace Archie Leitchs masterpiece, they should have suspected a crock. The fact that they didn't run him out of town, but lamely went along with his lunacy, has been their biggest failing.

[davcar]

It's not Banderson's fault they chose to believe his Vlad / FOH / Budge propaganda, the facts have been here for years in this thread which they chose to ignore! Plenty have looked in and poured scorn over words which have made more sense than those of #allisbarry

.net seekers of true and justice, now the neighbours from West can suffer.

[greenginger]

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Way back when Vlad first arrived a discussion took place on here as to how money could be laundered through Hearts. The above was just one scenario mentioned.

If you are looking for a link between Hearts and money laundering here is an article that might be of interest.

http://grahamstack.wordpress.com/201...ukraine-graft/

On first reading it might just appear that the connection is just some Vlad stooge who likes Maroon but go down to para 9.

This company Corpmark Impex LLP ( Virgin Islands registered and now dissolved ) rung a bell.

In Hearts 2010 Accounts £ 14.2 million of the Clubs debts were assigned to Impex Net and £ 5.9 million was written off.

If someone could link the two Impex companies, it could be shown that Hearts were being funded by the proceeds of crime.

[Coco Bryce]

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If you are looking for a link between Hearts and money laundering here is an article that might be of interest.

http://grahamstack.wordpress.com/201...ukraine-graft/

On first reading it might just appear that the connection is just some Vlad stooge who likes Maroon but go down to para 9.

This company Corpmark Impex LLP ( Virgin Islands registered and now dissolved ) rungs a bell.

In Hearts 2010 Accounts £ 14.2 million of the Clubs debts were assigned to Impex Net and £ 5.9 million was written off.

If someone could link the two Impex companies, it could be shown that Hearts were being funded by the proceeds of crime.

I take it the Herbalife didn't work out to well for Stacky so he chose a new sideline

[GreenLake]

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If you are looking for a link between Hearts and money laundering here is an article that might be of interest.

http://grahamstack.wordpress.com/201...ukraine-graft/

On first reading it might just appear that the connection is just some Vlad stooge who likes Maroon but go down to para 9.

This company Corpmark Impex LLP ( Virgin Islands registered and now dissolved ) rungs a bell.

In Hearts 2010 Accounts £ 14.2 million of the Clubs debts were assigned to Impex Net and £ 5.9 million was written off.

If someone could link the two Impex companies, it could be shown that Hearts were being funded by the proceeds of crime.

They both share the name Impex - will that do?

[HoboHarry]

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If you are looking for a link between Hearts and money laundering here is an article that might be of interest.

http://grahamstack.wordpress.com/201...ukraine-graft/

On first reading it might just appear that the connection is just some Vlad stooge who likes Maroon but go down to para 9.

This company Corpmark Impex LLP ( Virgin Islands registered and now dissolved ) rungs a bell.

In Hearts 2010 Accounts £ 14.2 million of the Clubs debts were assigned to Impex Net and £ 5.9 million was written off.

If someone could link the two Impex companies, it could be shown that Hearts were being funded by the proceeds of crime.

If this was proved what would be the likely implications for Hearts as they currently are? Free of Vlad etc etc.....

[Kaiser1962]

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If you are looking for a link between Hearts and money laundering here is an article that might be of interest.

http://grahamstack.wordpress.com/201...ukraine-graft/

On first reading it might just appear that the connection is just some Vlad stooge who likes Maroon but go down to para 9.

This company Corpmark Impex LLP ( Virgin Islands registered and now dissolved ) rung a bell.

In Hearts 2010 Accounts £ 14.2 million of the Clubs debts were assigned to Impex Net and £ 5.9 million was written off.

If someone could link the two Impex companies, it could be shown that Hearts were being funded by the proceeds of crime.

If its Corpmark Impex LLP and City Impex LLP then they had two matching directors in IRELAND & OVERSEAS ACQUISITIONS LIMITED and MILLTOWN CORPORATE SERVICES LTD who share an address at No.35 New Road, Belize City, Belize.

[greenginger]

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If its Corpmark Impex LLP and City Impex LLP then they had two matching directors in IRELAND & OVERSEAS ACQUISITIONS LIMITED and MILLTOWN CORPORATE SERVICES LTD who share an address at No.35 New Road, Belize City, Belize.

The name of the Company that wrote off Hearts debts was Impex Net according to the Accounts prepared by Johnston Carmichael.

I don't know if the auditors were required to establish if that was the correct name of the company providing the funding or if the money was " clean ".

[Nando™]

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If you are looking for a link between Hearts and money laundering here is an article that might be of interest.

http://grahamstack.wordpress.com/201...ukraine-graft/

On first reading it might just appear that the connection is just some Vlad stooge who likes Maroon but go down to para 9.

This company Corpmark Impex LLP ( Virgin Islands registered and now dissolved ) rung a bell.

In Hearts 2010 Accounts £ 14.2 million of the Clubs debts were assigned to Impex Net and £ 5.9 million was written off.

If someone could link the two Impex companies, it could be shown that Hearts were being funded by the proceeds of crime.

Stopped reading after they tried to tell me that Hearts are a venerable club.

[Jack]

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If its Corpmark Impex LLP and City Impex LLP then they had two matching directors in IRELAND & OVERSEAS ACQUISITIONS LIMITED and MILLTOWN CORPORATE SERVICES LTD who share an address at No.35 New Road, Belize City, Belize.

Next door to Greggs.

[CropleyWasGod]

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If this was proved what would be the likely implications for Hearts as they currently are? Free of Vlad etc etc.....

There would be no great implications for Hearts as a club/company, given that they are about to (at best) come under new ownership. There would be a smell, of course, but we're used to that.

If any money-laundering, or proceeds of crime, could be proven, the implications would be for individuals within the company. Even at that, one would have to prove intent, knowledge, conspiracy etc.

There might also be implications for their advisers.......and I'll deal with GG's query about the auditors in a minute, once I get my head around it

[CropleyWasGod]

Right.....the auditors.

As far as getting evidence about the write-off of the debt is concerned, a signed letter from that company on its headed paper should be sufficient as a starting-point. However, given the amount of the write-off, my instinct would be to find out a little more about the company itself. Not necessarily from an audit-evidence point of view, but from the perspective of finding out more about the environment in which Hearts/UBIG/UKIO operated. Remember, of course, that Johnston Carmichael found it difficult to get any information out of UBIG and their auditors, so any additional information would be very useful.

On to money-laundering.

The writing off of a debt does not, of itself, suggest money-laundering. (That term, by the way, has become a bit of a misnomer.... we are really talking about "profiting from the proceeds of crime"... but ML is easier to say.) However, again given the lack of clarity around UBIG etc, it would have been good practice on JC's part to establish "why" the debt was written off. Good practice from an audit point of view, but also to try and satisfy their anti-ML obligations.

Did they do that? We can't know.

Let's assume that they did, and that the reasons appeared to be sound, sensible, commercial etc. In that case, JC have nothing to be concerned about in that particular aspect.

Now, let's assume that they did, and that the reasons are none of the above. If that is the case, the law is quite clear. If an accountant/lawyer etc has "suspicion" (not evidence, or knowledge.... mere suspicion) that someone with whom they have come into contact in their business dealings has profited from the proceeds of crime, then they MUST report that suspicion to the authorities. (at the last count, that was the National Crime Agency, but they keep changing the bloody rules.)

So, if JC suspect that Impex or Hearts have profited from crime, and they report that suspicion, they have satisfied their obligations..... whether or not anything comes from that report. If they don't report it, they (specifically, probably the auditor in charge of the job, and their Money Laundering Reporting Officer) could be liable to 7 years in the jail.

[The Falcon]

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On to money-laundering.

The writing off of a debt does not, of itself, suggest money-laundering. (That term, by the way, has become a bit of a misnomer.... we are really talking about "profiting from the proceeds of crime"... but ML is easier to say.) However, again given the lack of clarity around UBIG etc, it would have been good practice on JC's part to establish "why" the debt was written off. Good practice from an audit point of view, but also to try and satisfy their anti-ML obligations.

Did they do that? We can't know.

Surely the movement of funds inter company, or through companies in off shore tax havens, would be a matter of interest to the Lithuanian investigators.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Surely the movement of funds inter company, or through companies in off shore tax havens, would be a matter of interest to the Lithuanian investigators.

Indeed it would. And, if that uncovered suspicion about inter-company transactions that involved officers of HMFC, the UK authorities would be advised accordingly.

My post was from the perspective of HMFC's auditors.... since some on here (no names ) want to know what their "contribution" was.