Scottish Independence

[ronaldo7]

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How many of the SNP promises will come to fruition if Labour win the first post-independence election?

I would think none. I'd still be delighted though as we would have won the yes vote to a new beginning. I'm voting yes for an independent scotland, not for the snp.

[Beefster]

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I would think none. I'd still be delighted though as we would have won the yes vote to a new beginning. I'm voting yes for an independent scotland, not for the snp.

That wasn't really the point you were making when you were attempting to dismiss Labour's proposals though. I don't recall you dismissing the SNP White Paper quite so readily, despite it being arguably more unlikely to have a chance of implementation than the Labour stuff.

[allmodcons]

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Labour will launch their report into further devolved powers on Tuesday. It will contain significant additional powers for the Scottish Parliament. Basically it's "Devo Max" that majority of Scots have said they want. It will then be voted on by the Scottish Labour conference on Friday morning and will be part of Labours 2015 UK manifesto.

Having had some time to digest what's on offer from 'Scottish Labour' would it be safe to say that you got this wrong?
You can call it a lot of things but one thing's for sure it certainly is not Devo Max.
One other thing, as they will be responsible for implementing this 'half baked' proposal, can I ask if the recommendations will be included in the UK Labour Party's 2015 General Election manifesto?

[JeMeSouviens]

Nailed:

Ben Thomson, chairman of the Devo Plus thinktank, which has Labour, Lib Dem and Tory membership, said he was deeply disappointed by the new proposals and said it remained unclear how Labour believed the limited tax devolution was equal to 40% of Holyrood's spending.

It would not make Scottish politicians accountable enough for the money they spend, he said. "It's just tinkering with the current system," Thomson said. "It's just lip service towards real devolved powers. The SNP will benefit from this; they will just say that the unionist parties aren't interested in real devolution."

Strange days when you're awaiting the Tory proposals with more interest.

[lucky]

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Having had some time to digest what's on offer from 'Scottish Labour' would it be safe to say that you got this wrong?
You can call it a lot of things but one thing's for sure it certainly is not Devo Max.
One other thing, as they will be responsible for implementing this 'half baked' proposal, can I ask if the recommendations will be included in the UK Labour Party's 2015 General Election manifesto?

It will be part of the UK labour manifesto if accepted by this weekend Scottish conference

[lucky]

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Nailed:



Strange days when you're awaiting the Tory proposals with more interest.

Labour went with these proposals as we would still receive funding from Westminster through the Barnett formula. There has been much debate within the party over tax and how much should be devolved. Personally I believe it's a fudge and I would have gone further but others were against this. We shall have a full debate on this on Friday

[allmodcons]

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Labour will launch their report into further devolved powers on Tuesday. It will contain significant additional powers for the Scottish Parliament. Basically it's "Devo Max" that majority of Scots have said they want. It will then be voted on by the Scottish Labour conference on Friday morning and will be part of Labours 2015 UK manifesto.

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Having had some time to digest what's on offer from 'Scottish Labour' would it be safe to say that you got this wrong?
You can call it a lot of things but one thing's for sure it certainly is not Devo Max.
One other thing, as they will be responsible for implementing this 'half baked' proposal, can I ask if the recommendations will be included in the UK Labour Party's 2015 General Election manifesto?

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It will be part of the UK labour manifesto if accepted by this weekend Scottish conference

So you 'jumped the gun' with the Devo Max line?

Provided we vote No, are you sure this will form part of the 2015 UK Labour Party GE manifesto?
I could be wrong but my understanding is that this is a proposal for the 2016 Scottish Election.

Whatever way you look at it, it's a complete dog's breakfast and only goes as far as tinkering around the edges. If you want confirmation of this you should take a look at Gordon Brewer interviewing Johann Lamont on Newsnight last night. This from a woman who aspires to be Scotland's FM!!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...nd_18_03_2014/

My favourite bit:-

BREWER: What if Ed Balls should become Chancellor of the Exchequer and he says “Right, I’m going to put the top rate up to 50p”, can the Scottish Parliament say no, we’re not going to do that, we’ll just keep it at 45p?
LAMONT: I wouldn’t have thought so.

[lucky]

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So you 'jumped the gun' with the Devo Max line?

Provided we vote No, are you sure this will form part of the 2015 UK Labour Party GE manifesto?
I could be wrong but my understanding is that this is a proposal for the 2016 Scottish Election.

Whatever way you look at it, it's a complete dog's breakfast and only goes as far as tinkering around the edges. If you want confirmation of this you should take a look at Gordon Brewer interviewing Johann Lamont on Newsnight last night. This from a woman who aspires to be Scotland's FM!!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...nd_18_03_2014/

My favourite bit:-

BREWER: What if Ed Balls should become Chancellor of the Exchequer and he says “Right, I’m going to put the top rate up to 50p”, can the Scottish Parliament say no, we’re not going to do that, we’ll just keep it at 45p?
LAMONT: I wouldn’t have thought so.

Did not jump the gun on the Devo max, it is actually described as such in the document. If the SLP conference votes to accept the SEC recommendation then it will be part of the UK manifesto in 2015.

On a side note, unite the union have decided to stay neutral. I would say that's more disappointing for the NO campaign as Unite are a Labour affiliated union.

[allmodcons]

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Did not jump the gun on the Devo max, it is actually described as such in the document. If the SLP conference votes to accept the SEC recommendation then it will be part of the UK manifesto in 2015.

On a side note, unite the union have decided to stay neutral. I would say that's more disappointing for the NO campaign as Unite are a Labour affiliated union.

You sound a smidgen pissed off with the lack of commitment shown by the Labour Party?

Maybe you should drop the Better Together link, seize the opportunity and vote Yes .

[lucky]

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You sound a smidgen pissed off with the lack of commitment shown by the Labour Party?

Maybe you should drop the Better Together link, seize the opportunity and vote Yes .

I'm a democrat and accept collective responsibility. When we engage in these processes you seldom get everything you want.

Joking aside Labour have done a decent job on this considering there are many within the party that did not want further devolution. I took the decision to vote no based on my head not my heart. As I have said previously there are too many questions unanswered to take a risk with a yes vote. Some of that is my pathological hatred of the Nats. Been involved in too many campaigns over decades to change that.

[ronaldo7]

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That wasn't really the point you were making when you were attempting to dismiss Labour's proposals though. I don't recall you dismissing the SNP White Paper quite so readily, despite it being arguably more unlikely to have a chance of implementation than the Labour stuff.

The point on the SLP devo nano document was to show how they have back tracked from their interim reports, maybe someone from Westminster told them to pipe down. On the white paper, still digesting it thanks.

[ronaldo7]

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None but as you've belittled them you won't be bothered. The Tories are going to publish their proposals in the next couple of months but god knows what they will come up with.

So when I point out the changes from the interim report to the final document its belittling it. I would say back tracking would be more appropriate. Westminster labour have had their day.

[lucky]

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So when I point out the changes from the interim report to the final document its belittling it. I would say back tracking would be more appropriate. Westminster labour have had their day.

It's an internal labour document so changes were always going to happen. But your wrong if you think Westminster is finished. The bookies the polls and commentators are saying a No vote is likely to win. The trouble with being a separatist is that you and your kind can't / won't see the benefits of devolution

[ronaldo7]

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It's an internal labour document so changes were always going to happen. But your wrong if you think Westminster is finished. The bookies the polls and commentators are saying a No vote is likely to win. The trouble with being a separatist is that you and your kind can't / won't see the benefits of devolution

Care to elaborate.

I am not a member of any political party and have looked at how the country has been run in both Scotland since Devolution, and the UK. I prefer to be given a shot at doing it for ourselves.

On the subject of Devolution, I've seen benefits and can see no harm in pushing it further. If you want to take your pocket money from Gideon and Co, that's your prerogative. I wouldn't hold out much hope of getting into power in any parliament any time soon.

[Glory Lurker]

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It's an internal labour document so changes were always going to happen. But your wrong if you think Westminster is finished. The bookies the polls and commentators are saying a No vote is likely to win. The trouble with being a separatist is that you and your kind can't / won't see the benefits of devolution

Quite the opposite. We've always seen it as a means of Scotland gaining confidence on the road to independence. It's done a grand job. Labour is very late to the devolution party. If it hadn't have been for Sillars winning Govan in '88 I do wonder when you would have got round to it at all.

P.S. love the "you and your kind" comment - are we still a virus?

[marinello59]

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Quite the opposite. We've always seen it as a means of Scotland gaining confidence on the road to independence. It's done a grand job. Labour is very late to the devolution party. If it hadn't have been for Sillars winning Govan in '88 I do wonder when you would have got round to it at all.

P.S. love the "you and your kind" comment - are we still a virus?

You maybe want to rethink the Labour late to devolution line. A wee bit silly given that Labour were ever presents in the Scottish Constituonal Convention which lead directly to the creation of the devolved Scottish government.

[ronaldo7]

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I'm a democrat and accept collective responsibility. When we engage in these processes you seldom get everything you want.

Joking aside Labour have done a decent job on this considering there are many within the party that did not want further devolution. I took the decision to vote no based on my head not my heart. As I have said previously there are too many questions unanswered to take a risk with a yes vote. Some of that is my pathological hatred of the Nats. Been involved in too many campaigns over decades to change that.

You really need the channel that Hatred bud.

[Glory Lurker]

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You maybe want to rethink the Labour late to devolution line. A wee bit silly given that Labour were ever presents in the Scottish Constituonal Convention which lead directly to the creation of the devolved Scottish government.

No, I'll stick by it. The Scottish Constitutional Convention kicked up in the wake of Sillars winning Govan.

[BroxburnHibee]

People really need to forget about hating the SNP and vote on whether they think Independence is good for Scotland.

Salmond's an erse and I expect him to be voted out of a job at the earliest opportunity (only if Labour get a more credible leader mind you) that interview the other day along with her stupid performance against Sturgeon a few weeks back have done Lamont irreparable damage IMO.

[marinello59]

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No, I'll stick by it. The Scottish Constitutional Convention kicked up in the wake of Sillars winning Govan.

Nope, it evolved from the ashes of the failed '79 referundum. And Sillars had little to do with it. Like it or not Labour delivered devolution. Saying they are late to the Devo party is simply not true.

[snooky]

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People really need to forget about hating the SNP and vote on whether they think Independence is good for Scotland.

Salmond's an erse and I expect him to be voted out of a job at the earliest opportunity (only if Labour get a more credible leader mind you) that interview the other day along with her stupid performance against Sturgeon a few weeks back have done Lamont irreparable damage IMO.

The only thing she's missing is a half dozen clothes pegs in her mouth.
If that's the best Labour leader Scotland can come up with then God help us in Westminster or Holyrood, where'er the future lies.

[marinello59]

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People really need to forget about hating the SNP and vote on whether they think Independence is good for Scotland.

Salmond's an erse and I expect him to be voted out of a job at the earliest opportunity (only if Labour get a more credible leader mind you) that interview the other day along with her stupid performance against Sturgeon a few weeks back have done Lamont irreparable damage IMO.

Sturgeon was just as bad as Lamont when they went head to head. In some ways she was worse as she was always going to look slicker in a TV setting yet she failed to add any meaningful arguments to the Yes side. Very disappointing, I admire both of them.
Anyway... I can't stand the SNP but will be voting YES. I really hope they disappear for good after Independence.

[Glory Lurker]

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Nope, it evolved from the ashes of the failed '79 referundum. And Sillars had little to do with it. Like it or not Labour delivered devolution. Saying they are late to the Devo party is simply not true.

Sorry, I don't agree. Labour's lack of commitment to devolution led to the failure of the 79 referendum that you mention. The party was hopelessly split on the issue then and in the years after. The Campaign for a Scottish Assembly did not have full support from the party, and there were many in Labour strenuously anti. The CSA was barely a movement, either. The first march I ever went on was with them and I was almost embarrassed at how few of us were there.

Devolution was a fringe topic for Labour in the '80s. Sillars won Govan and all hell broke lose. The Constitutional Convention was formed the next again year, so it's not right to say it evolved from the 79 referendum.

My take on all of this is from growing up through the 80s, despairing of Labour's lack of interest in pressing the Scottish agenda. I might be doing you a dis-service assuming that you are old enough to remember it too (). Perhaps we just took different impressions of what was going on?

As for delivery, Labour delivered the vote - it was the Scottish people that delivered the result.

[snooky]

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Sturgeon was just as bad as Lamont when they went head to head. In some ways she was worse as she was always going to look slicker in a TV setting yet she failed to add any meaningful arguments to the Yes side. Very disappointing, I admire both of them.
Anyway... I can't stand the SNP but will be voting YES. I really hope they disappear for good after Independence.

I agree with you entirely. Sturgeon came over as smug and over confident.
I was very disappointed with the performance of all three of the women on that programme.
Catfight.

[Glory Lurker]

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Sturgeon was just as bad as Lamont when they went head to head. In some ways she was worse as she was always going to look slicker in a TV setting yet she failed to add any meaningful arguments to the Yes side. Very disappointing, I admire both of them.
Anyway... I can't stand the SNP but will be voting YES. I really hope they disappear for good after Independence.

A good opportunity to put my cards on the table while we debate Labour's 1980s devolution policy (we really do need to get out more!). I have always supported the SNP because I support independence. I am a member for that reason. I am really enjoying the Yes campaign because I don't need to be party political. If you get your wish after independence I'll not greet my eyes out.

[BroxburnHibee]

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Sturgeon was just as bad as Lamont when they went head to head. In some ways she was worse as she was always going to look slicker in a TV setting yet she failed to add any meaningful arguments to the Yes side. Very disappointing, I admire both of them.
Anyway... I can't stand the SNP but will be voting YES. I really hope they disappear for good after Independence.

Neither of them got any credit from that performance but for me Sturgeon at least gave some answers when called on but it was hard to hear it with all the cackling going on. Lamont's whole tactic was clearly to disrupt the whole thing as often as she could (and as a Labour voter my whole life I found it pathetic). This is the woman that won 'Debater of the year' last year!!!!

That Newsnight interview was frankly ridiculous and I'm afraid it will be used again and again to beat her up. Gordon Brewer could hardly believe his ears.

I can't stand Salmond but I don't think the SNP will wilt away after Independence. Sturgeon will get the leadership soon enough once the referendum is over and will be a force to reckon with in Scottish politics for many years.

[marinello59]

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Voting yes, I really dont see any reason not to.

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Sorry, I don't agree. Labour's lack of commitment to devolution led to the failure of the 79 referendum that you mention. The party was hopelessly split on the issue then and in the years after. The Campaign for a Scottish Assembly did not have full support from the party, and there were many in Labour strenuously anti. The CSA was barely a movement, either. The first march I ever went on was with them and I was almost embarrassed at how few of us were there.

Devolution was a fringe topic for Labour in the '80s. Sillars won Govan and all hell broke lose. The Constitutional Convention was formed the next again year, so it's not right to say it evolved from the 79 referendum.

My take on all of this is from growing up through the 80s, despairing of Labour's lack of interest in pressing the Scottish agenda. I might be doing you a dis-service assuming that you are old enough to remember it too (). Perhaps we just took different impressions of what was going on?

As for delivery, Labour delivered the vote - it was the Scottish people that delivered the result.

Fair comments. We have a different perception of what went on . At least we agree on the right way to vote in September.

[Hibrandenburg]

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Sturgeon was just as bad as Lamont when they went head to head. In some ways she was worse as she was always going to look slicker in a TV setting yet she failed to add any meaningful arguments to the Yes side. Very disappointing, I admire both of them.
Anyway... I can't stand the SNP but will be voting YES. I really hope they disappear for good after Independence.

The SNP are like the Tories during the war years. They've been voted in to get a job done and will be launched on completion.

[Saorsa]

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It's an internal labour document so changes were always going to happen. But your wrong if you think Westminster is finished. The bookies the polls and commentators are saying a No vote is likely to win. The trouble with being a separatist is that you and your kind can't / won't see the benefits of devolution

Never paid much attention tae these things, canvass returns on the other hand.....

[JeMeSouviens]

Latest Panelbase (conducted 7-14 March, ex don't knows and changes versus prior Panelbase poll):

Yes 47 (+3)
No 53 (-3)


Interesting.