Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

[Ozyhibby]

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I think the issue is that, by taking in ST money, BDO would be creating a creditor (ie the ST holders). Pretty sure that's not allowed whilst in administration.

Although they did sell season tickets last year?
Main problems I can see is that they would incur another 15 point penalty for next season, they would not be able to sign players (and they are likely to lose a couple of their best players) and therefor another relegation would be likely. Buying a league 1 club was def not the FoH business model.
Also, it costs about £80k a month for BDO to run Hearts.

[jacomo]

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That's A fair old visceral image you have conjured up there.

What kind of sicko plants mines in a train tunnel? Seriously, these Jambos are weird people.

[CropleyisGod]

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The big L was always my favoured option, going back a number of years. I said that, not from a Hibby perspective, but from a dispassionate commercial one. A controlled liquidation 3 years or more ago, and they could have been almost back in the SPFL by now, debt free and still with their fanbase and stadium.

But would they bloody listen?

Surely only Vlad could have listened to you Crops as he was in control? He was too busy flushing the big maroon floater down the pan whilst robbing its followers blind...

[CropleyWasGod]

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Although they did sell season tickets last year?
Main problems I can see is that they would incur another 15 point penalty for next season, they would not be able to sign players (and they are likely to lose a couple of their best players) and therefor another relegation would be likely. Buying a league 1 club was def not the FoH business model.
Also, it costs about £80k a month for BDO to run Hearts.

Pretty sure that was before they went into administration, no?

Think that was one of BJ's gripes when he went in, that the ST money had been spent.

[Jack Hackett]

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Pretty sure that was before they went into administration, no?

Think that was one of BJ's gripes when he went in, that the ST money had been spent.

They did manage to con, sorry, cajole an extra 3k to buy after they took over

[Leithenhibby]

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Although they did sell season tickets last year?
Main problems I can see is that they would incur another 15 point penalty for next season, they would not be able to sign players (and they are likely to lose a couple of their best players) and therefor another relegation would be likely. Buying a league 1 club was def not the FoH business model.
Also, it costs about £80k a month for BDO to run Hearts.

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Pretty sure that was before they went into administration, no?

Think that was one of BJ's gripes when he went in, that the ST money had been spent.

I recall them selling ST..... It was after admin though, and some Yams were buying 2 or 3 at the time...... Pretty sure it was the case.

[CropleyWasGod]

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They did manage to con, sorry, cajole an extra 3k to buy after they took over

Ah, okay. I'm maybe wrong on the ST/creditors bit, then.

Where's RobinP when you need him?

[Ozyhibby]

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Ah, okay. I'm maybe wrong on the ST/creditors bit, then.

Where's RobinP when you need him?

Don't think you are wrong as such. It's not that they can't create creditors but any they do create, BDO are liable to. If they don't finish the season then BDO would have to refund everyone from their own money. Unlikely to happen.
I doubt BDO would take them into another season unless they had a guarantee the shares would eventually be delivered.

[CyberSauzee]

Yesterday in this thread someone mentioned how UBIG's other 'investment's were getting on.

One long forgotten one that was/is actually successful is the Balkan Investment Bank. What's interesting is how they've changed their 'About Us' page over time. Here's the current one:

http://www.bankasrpske.ba/eng/?page=3

And here's the one from yesteryear on their old website by the looks of things:

http://www.bib.ba/eng/?page=103

I especially like the 'Trustworthy Experience' logo. I miss Vlad.

[stevejordan]

Another day and no news tick tock tick tock

[Glesgahibby]

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Ah, okay. I'm maybe wrong on the ST/creditors bit, then.

Where's RobinP when you need him?

The reason they sold extra was IMO,because they knew they would get this far into the season,thus fulfilling there obligation of sale.
I don't think BDO can do that this time.
Without any proper timescale of CVA(proper CVA) completion date,surely that would be unethical and risk there reputation.

[Caversham Green]

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Ah, okay. I'm maybe wrong on the ST/creditors bit, then.

Where's RobinP when you need him?

My feeling is that it's more a difference of emphasis. Last year, it was the close season when BDO were punting STs, and the bulk had already been sold prior to A-day so to some extent they were just continuing an operation that had already started. They also had a degree of confidence that HoMFC would start the season, although they were making it very clear that they may not finish it.

Marketing STs now is a different kettle of worms - it's effectively a new sales operation, and that is not in BDO's remit as administrators. At this stage they would also have to stress that the club might not be able to take part in the season they were selling tickets for - that would seriously damage sales in any case and would create panic amongst the yams.

I think they probably could sell tickets if they absolutely had to, but it would have to be under instruction and indemnity from FoH or the Budgie bird.

[Brunswickbill]

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The liquidator drives the disposal. Ukio get their slice after his.

Could UKIO call in the debt for the stadium and force a liquidation?

[Ozyhibby]

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Could UKIO call in the debt for the stadium and force a liquidation?

Ukio appointed BDO so they can probably end it all now if the wanted, I think.

[Craig_in_Prague]

I do like this old beauty from back in August:

1 HMFC Limited's bid will provide a new 25,000 capacity stadium as a valuable income generator for the Hearts over the next 30 years.
2 There is no need for fans to dip into their pockets.
3 The ownership will be in the hands of local Hearts supporters.
4 Hearts fans will be represented on the new BoD.
5 Tynecastle will be retained for posterity and developed like Highbury, retaining Hearts HQ, conference & exhibition facilities and museum etc in a newly modified main stand.
6 The three stands will be dismantled and sold to Knockhill Racing Circuit.
7 The ground will be tastefully developed into an open space with surrounding 'terracing' available for former fans ashes and a memorial fountain in the centre circle.
8 The funding will come from new money generated by the stadium.
9 Bob Jamieson has worked on this proposal for over two years.
10 He has also instructed three top QCs and an advocate at Ampersand to provide a report on the possibility of a successful application to join the English Championship. Their report was ready in May and the advice is that the application would be 99% successful

[CropleyWasGod]

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Could UKIO call in the debt for the stadium and force a liquidation?

I'm pretty sure that they can't, while they are in administration. Administration provides a level of protection against that type of action.

Besides, UKIO's creditors are still arguing about who pinched each other's pens, and why there are no biscuits.

[Kato]

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I do like this old beauty from back in August:

1 HMFC Limited's bid will provide a new 25,000 capacity stadium as a valuable income generator for the Hearts over the next 30 years.
2 There is no need for fans to dip into their pockets.
3 The ownership will be in the hands of local Hearts supporters.
4 Hearts fans will be represented on the new BoD.
5 Tynecastle will be retained for posterity and developed like Highbury, retaining Hearts HQ, conference & exhibition facilities and museum etc in a newly modified main stand.
6 The three stands will be dismantled and sold to Knockhill Racing Circuit.
7 The ground will be tastefully developed into an open space with surrounding 'terracing' available for former fans ashes and a memorial fountain in the centre circle.
8 The funding will come from new money generated by the stadium.
9 Bob Jamieson has worked on this proposal for over two years.
10 He has also instructed three top QCs and an advocate at Ampersand to provide a report on the possibility of a successful application to join the English Championship. Their report was ready in May and the advice is that the application would be 99% successful

"Here's what you might have won, but you backed the wrong horse."

[jacomo]

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"Here's what you might have won, but you backed the wrong horse."

You think? Even the dumbwits who were taken in by Romanov thought this was too good to be true. It reads like a fantasy wish list, with ludicrous sentimentality ladled on top for good measure.

I love his final assertion - that a bid to join the English Championship would be 99% successful. What about the 1%? Would HMFC still play one fixture every other season in Scotland?

[Paisley Hibby]

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I still think it's the most likely option.

Going into a second season admin with no guarantee if or when the shares issue could be obtained and the CVA completed, would mean depleting FOH resources, which were meant to buy rather than operate the club. (Assuming this could be done.) It could place the club in an unsatisfying limbo (from their POV) for a long, long, time and set of a cycle of decline and despair. Once the emotional resonance at having 'saved' their cub dissipates, Hearts fans who have set up DD's might start to feel that they have ended up paying a hell of a lot for championship football and a club with minimal investment on the playing side.

At least with liquidation, they would be starting at the bottom with nowhere to fall to, and the only way would be up, with a united support for a fan-owned club.

The great variable, as you say, is the PBS. Not only is it their home, the land on it is the biggest fixed asset to borrow against. If they lose that, then it becomes a much, much bigger struggle.

I really hope they don't get liquidated. The alternative of them being in an unsatisfying limbo for a long, long, time sounds much more pleasing to me.

[Famous Fiver]

Reading all this I don't know whether to laugh at or feel sorry for all those people who put money in for shares, did cake bakes, brauhaus etc etc. to 'save' their club.
When the big L happens all that money will have been flushed down the pan, for what? A relegation. Wasted, burnt, sp*nked, choose an appropriate word.
I'm with you CWG, big L should have been addressed yoinks ago and all that wasted money could have gone into rebuilding the club.
I think Ill laugh at them......

TICK TOCK

[Dashing Bob S]

Well another week goes by and still no sign of a timetable for exiting admin.

No sense in panicking, let's just suck on that 5-1 dummy tit one more time...

NEXT week will see some positive developments in this vehway vehway compwex case.

[CyberSauzee]

Realistically they will have to wait until they are officially relegated before selling season tickets. When that happens it will be interesting to see if they do.

If yes to flogging them then the money will presumably be ring fenced like the Pars as pointed out by Bajillions. If there are any delays starting to sell them then it's safe to assume that BDO are envisaging problems as predicted by Sergey. And if they do start selling them and there is no sign of admin ending over the summer the malcontents will become greater in number as the new season approaches with a points deduction. Will it get that far?

I'm well aware that a malcontented Yam is an oxymoron, but I'm assuming that there are a few who don't post on PoppyThievesAreUs whose heads are well aware of the reality pointed out by CWG/Serge/Baj, but whose hearts (excuse the pun) won't quite let them believe what's going on.

[jacomo]

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Well another week goes by and still no sign of a timetable for exiting admin.

No sense in panicking, let's just suck on that 5-1 dummy tit one more time...

NEXT week will see some positive developments in this vehway vehway compwex case.

Frankly, I'm getting a bit bored. No developments, no mad pronouncements from their Leaders, not even a trade mark Banderson blunder to liven things up.

If The Famous want to keep their audience interested, they're going to have to do a bit better than this.

[Craig_in_Prague]

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Frankly, I'm getting a bit bored. No developments, no mad pronouncements from their Leaders, not even a trade mark Banderson blunder to liven things up.

If The Famous want to keep their audience interested, they're going to have to do a bit better than this.

Was thinking the same earlier, all too quiet. Where is allisbarry to give us a wee chuckle during these quiet times.
Where's big Bri and his interviews with Jackson.
It feels like quite a while, since some mouthpiece in the media gave all the wee lambs a warm fuzzy feeling that exiting admin was imminent.

The evening news is even boring. Locke saying Andy Webster would have made all the difference, they are envious of D UTD and a balanced side. Ah diddumms.

[Dashing Bob S]

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I really hope they don't get liquidated. The alternative of them being in an unsatisfying limbo for a long, long, time sounds much more pleasing to me.

Liquidation probably equals unsatisfactory even longer term limbo plus, well, liquidation.

[stevejordan]

It is amazing how blinkered some of the hear7s supporters are they all are going with the " we will be debt free and sorted soon " the reality is they are in a mess and the frozen shares are a long long way from being un frozen months possibly years AKA Portsmouth FC

[robinp]

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The reason they sold extra was IMO,because they knew they would get this far into the season,thus fulfilling there obligation of sale.
I don't think BDO can do that this time.
Without any proper timescale of CVA(proper CVA) completion date,surely that would be unethical and risk there reputation.

That's my view on it too. Day 1 BJ would have drafted up a pretty accurate cash flow projection for the rest of the season (prize money, TV money, etc etc) and said I need x amount to complete the season. If we sell x amount of ST's then we can see out the season and honour the pre-admin STs as well, thus not pissing off our own fans! Which they look to have just about achieved.

Post admin expenditure is lower, having shed the debts attributed to the old owners and they are on a semi level financial footing (just). He trades on, preserving the business as a going concern, on a shoestring budget, to try and find a buyer.

His current problem as I see it is this:

It is reported that the **** business plan is dependent on them getting all the ST money as working capital. They do not want BJ to start eating in to "their" cash. In order to preserve the business long enough for the shares to be de-frosted and handed over is going to need either a free cash injection from somebody or ST's to be sold. BJ is going to start running out of cash very soon. The end of the season is when cashflow is at it's tightest for clubs if you take out their season ticket sales/money; no games, cup games, etc. They have none of this and no cash in the bank. ST's being sold mean's **** might have to walk away. Who blinks first?

Something you also need to consider in all of this:
When an IP trades on with an insolvent business he cherry picks which contracts to preserve. He would normally enter into new contracts with suppliers he wishes to retain and this would normally be under the name such as "BJ and Tonto as Administrators for HOMFC (In Administration)". If it all goes tit's up during the season and their income was not as projected and had traded at a loss, owing suppliers cash, then THEY (BJ and Tonto) are PERSONALLY liable to those suppliers. Those are post administration creditors who come calling to BJ.

In a similar vein, if they took £2,000,000 in season ticket sales before the summer, spend the money on wages, trading etc and then come the new season the takeover falls apart having spend £500,000.00 of the supporters cash, BJ and Tonto are in deep ****. They close the doors with new creditors owned money. I would love to know the regulator's/monitor's take on them if that was to happen. This is effectively what Crops means when he says "selling ST potentially creates creditors". (I even ran this scenario past my boss, an IP, and he agrees with my scenario, BJ would also be extremely reprimanded and questioned by the authorities if that was to happen)

When you realise that trading on is not viable you close down immediately, no questions asked. Selling ST opens up a BIG (team) can of worms for BJ, but so does not selling them (does he want to be the Grim Reaper of Hearts!?).

People have also mentioned about the money being ring-fenced like Dunfermline. Dunfermline were very clear that if the CVA vote was rejected, the club would be liquidated that day and the meeting was very close to the start of the season (I think). There was also no other parties in the running for DAFC, it was the Supporters take over or nothing.

HOMFC, going by BJs previous mutterings, would appear to need this cash soon. They likely need to sell STs soon to meet an impending cash flow black hole, but he cannot guarantee that they can fulfill those tickets. DAFC had made it through the summer and the ST money was for the season ahead, they had gotten through the worst time for trading. It would appear that HOMFC will need such cash just to get to the new season, then what? How many less walkups, hospitality sales, shirt sales you going to have on an even lower budget team next season? in the Championship, fans paying less money etc etc?

Oh and are BDO really going to trade this on for years and years if the shares remain frozen? Where is the cash for their fees coming from...oh yes, even less money for the team, it's a never ending spiral of money problems.

edit: I'm sure/certain that in the DAFC scenario some third party agreed to meet the running costs of trading the club to keep it going until the CVA meeting, so that BDO didn't need the ST money. HOMFC's trading will cost a lot more to cover than DAFC!

[johnbc70]

BBC Football reported in November that Hearts could be out of admin in February, FOH then said these timescales were "entirely consistent" with the process of taking them out of admin.

Just saying likes.

Tick Tock

[CropleyWasGod]

Thanks, Robin, excellent summary.

Knowing BJ of old, there's no way he will be putting himself and BDO in the IPA's sights. He may well come under pressure to sell ST's, of course, but I would be very surprised if he did succumb.

[robinp]

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Thanks, Robin, excellent summary.

Knowing BJ of old, there's no way he will be putting himself and BDO in the IPA's sights. He may well come under pressure to sell ST's, of course, but I would be very surprised if he did.

Glad it makes some sense.

The usual botched summary job at lunch time, can't sacrifice chargeable time! I'm sure BJ would agree with that.

edit: another potential Big (team) can of worms is player contracts, extending them, new contracts, wage increases/reductions, that's another issue entirely for another day. Another worry for BJ!