Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

[Weststandwanab]

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Could it not just be added to the pot for the money they owe budge?

They being who ? Owe = debt = not legal.

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Heres the disclaimer BDO used when Dunfermline tickets were put on sale in May last year

Good shout.

[lord bunberry]

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They being who ? Owe = debt = not legal.

Good shout.

I thought bdo sold season tickets at the start of this season and half season tickets in December, why was it legal to do that but illegal to sell them for next season?

[jacomo]

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Heres the disclaimer BDO used when Dunfermline tickets were put on sale in May last year

Did they forget to mention the deduction of a "very small" admin charge?

[Waxy]

Can they sell STs without knowing for certain(even though we know) which division they'll be in?
Perhaps now it'd suit them to get relegated asap.

[Onion]

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Heres the disclaimer BDO used when Dunfermline tickets were put on sale in May last year

Makes sense. So the only thing really stopping the Yams is knowing what league they will be in next season. It cannot be exiting Admin as this is 100% guaranteed and anyone who says otherwise is a Hobo-loving liar. Budge is due to take over next month, no question about it. Nothing is going to get in the way of this all happening.

So when we pump them 4-0 at the PBS to send them down to the lower leagues, thats the signal to start their ST campaign :)

[Gus Fring]

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I thought bdo sold season tickets at the start of this season and half season tickets in December, why was it legal to do that but illegal to sell them for next season?

Season tickets were on sale before they went in to Admin last year. Half season tickets were usable almost immediately. If Season Tickets for next season went on sale this week for example, there's still 4 months between when the yams fork over the cash and they start to see a return for that money.

[lord bunberry]

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Season tickets were on sale before they went in to Admin last year. Half season tickets were usable almost immediately. If Season Tickets for next season went on sale this week for example, there's still 4 months between when the yams fork over the cash and they start to see a return for that money.

So there's no benefit to putting season tickets on sale now as they couldn't use the money until they exit administration.

[Dashing Bob S]

On Kickback they are now taking the first tentative steps to seriously discussing the future of their club, and on a thread set up to ridicule Hibs.net.

Looks like our work is done!

[GreenLake]

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On Kickback they are now taking the first tentative steps to seriously discussing the future of their club, and on a thread set up to ridicule Hibs.net.

Looks like our work is done!

I saw this wee brainstorming gem from sicksack:

Posted Yesterday, 19:24
We have approx 17000 seats, set prices so that these seats are filled.




The prices would range from £28 for the 7000 twirlers to -£20 for bucket raking Gorgie locals who would go for the price of a good feed.

[Gus Fring]

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So there's no benefit to putting season tickets on sale now as they couldn't use the money until they exit administration.

[Weststandwanab]

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I thought bdo sold season tickets at the start of this season and half season tickets in December, why was it legal to do that but illegal to sell them for next season?

See Bajillions post number 40386

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Can they sell STs without knowing for certain(even though we know) which division they'll be in?
Perhaps now it'd suit them to get relegated asap.

They cannot realistically and yes it would suit BDO.

[Geo_1875]

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Season tickets were on sale before they went in to Admin last year. Half season tickets were usable almost immediately. If Season Tickets for next season went on sale this week for example, there's still 4 months between when the yams fork over the cash and they start to see a return for that money.

The thing with half season tickets is they are valid for home league games from purchase until the end of the season.

If the Yams went bust on Boxing Day that would have been the official end of their season and punters would have had no legal comeback.

[Mikey]

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Another head in the sander from Kickback (I simply cannot resist)



Just a reminder of where the info actually comes from.




All Hobo lies. Does this mean that Ian Murray is actually a Hibs fan? That would certainly explain the fact his office is painted green

Putting them straight is no bad thing. I'm sure plenty of them genuinely do think that we've been making it up as we go along but the facts show that simply isn't the case.

If they have the balls they would set up a Q&A with FOH or BDO to see exactly where they are but I suspect they're too scared of the answers!

[JeMeSouviens]

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A little from column A, a little from column B

My understanding is they can't sell them and use the money without knowing they will 100% be able to honour the commitment. If they do sell them then the money should be ring fenced (as happened at Dunfermline) so that in the event they don't make the start of the season that, let's be generous and say 10,000 Hearts fans, don't get stiffed out of circa £250 each.

I believe that legally you can't create new creditors whilst in admin (I might log in as my other name, CropleyWasGod in a minute and confirm) and that's exactly what selling season tickets would create. They definitely can't offer a payment plan.

It's also tactical. The FOH business plan need that money more than anything else to work. Without it, the whole plan is doomed from the start. They can't keep spending next seasons money before the current one is over otherwise they'll never recover.

Ah, well, it'll all be hypothetical when the trifling formalities of the stampage are concluded.

[Gus Fring]

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The thing with half season tickets is they are valid for home league games from purchase until the end of the season.

If the Yams went bust on Boxing Day that would have been the official end of their season and punters would have had no legal comeback.

Yes but BDO will have some idea of whether or not they are likely to go bust and knew they weren't back then so fans would get at least some return for their outlay. Now though, it's not their money to spend and they'd be taking payment several months in advance.

[Dashing Bob S]

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Putting them straight is no bad thing. I'm sure plenty of them genuinely do think that we've been making it up as we go along but the facts show that simply isn't the case.

If they have the balls they would set up a Q&A with FOH or BDO to see exactly where they are but I suspect they're too scared of the answers!

The fear of the answers is a very big issue, which is why most Yams in the know choose to stay out of the debate.

The Yam equivalents of Sergey/Bajillions/CWG/etc who have financial/legal expertise and or inside contacts, actually do exist, but are keeping away from Kickback. I've a friend who has close ties with the club and who is an expert on EC international law. When I told him about the Sergey/Bajillions posts on here he said something along the lines of: "I'm finding the whole thing too depressing to look at, and to be honest, I'm basically just ignoring it till we have either the CVA in place or move towards liquidation. But the scenario you've outlined (frozen shares, court inaction, running out of cash) is the by far the most likely. The barriers to the CVA are likely to be huge legal ones and not minor procedural ones, given that the shares form part of the asset base being held as part of a criminal investigation."

It's pretty strange on there now as most have opted to talk about everything other than their club's future, bar the dwindling band of the usual trumpets taking utter nonsense.

[Mikey09]

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The fear of the answers is a very big issue, which is why most Yams in the know choose to stay out of the debate.

The Yam equivalents of Sergey/Bajillions/CWG/etc who have financial/legal expertise and or inside contacts, actually do exist, but are keeping away from Kickback. I've a friend who has close ties with the club and who is an expert on EC international law. When I told him about the Sergey/Bajillions posts on here he said something along the lines of: "I'm finding the whole thing too depressing to look at, and to be honest, I'm basically just ignoring it till we have either the CVA in place or move towards liquidation. But the scenario you've outlined (frozen shares, court inaction, running out of cash) is the by far the most likely. The barriers to the CVA are likely to be huge legal ones and not minor procedural ones, given that the shares form part of the asset base being held as part of a criminal investigation."

It's pretty strange on there now as most have opted to talk about everything other than their club's future, bar the dwindling band of the usual trumpets taking utter nonsense.

Aye Bob.... There is a simple answer to all that for a yam.... 5-1.... Keep up pal

[JeMeSouviens]

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It's pretty strange on there now as most have opted to talk about everything other than their club's future, bar the dwindling band of the usual trumpets taking utter nonsense.

The Kickback Black Knights: "'tis but a scratch".

[Craig_in_Prague]

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Aye Bob.... There is a simple answer to all that for a yam.... 5-1.... Keep up pal

oh yeah, the wee comfort blanket............


Pink_blanket.jpg

[Weststandwanab]

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The fear of the answers is a very big issue, which is why most Yams in the know choose to stay out of the debate.

The Yam equivalents of Sergey/Bajillions/CWG/etc who have financial/legal expertise and or inside contacts, actually do exist, but are keeping away from Kickback. I've a friend who has close ties with the club and who is an expert on EC international law. When I told him about the Sergey/Bajillions posts on here he said something along the lines of: "I'm finding the whole thing too depressing to look at, and to be honest, I'm basically just ignoring it till we have either the CVA in place or move towards liquidation. But the scenario you've outlined (frozen shares, court inaction, running out of cash) is the by far the most likely. The barriers to the CVA are likely to be huge legal ones and not minor procedural ones, given that the shares form part of the asset base being held as part of a criminal investigation."

It's pretty strange on there now as most have opted to talk about everything other than their club's future, bar the dwindling band of the usual trumpets taking utter nonsense.

And here it starts.

http://www.ub.lt/en/to-creditors/news/73-notification-of-uab-valnetas-the-bankruptcy-administrator-of-bab-ukio-bankas-on-convening-the-first-meeting-of-creditors-of-bab-ukio-bankas

Hope the link works.

To Yams reading be afraid very afraid.

[Hermit Crab]

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And here it starts.

http://www.ub.lt/en/to-creditors/news/73-notification-of-uab-valnetas-the-bankruptcy-administrator-of-bab-ukio-bankas-on-convening-the-first-meeting-of-creditors-of-bab-ukio-bankas

Hope the link works.

To Yams reading be afraid very afraid.

Link doesn't work :(

[Ozyhibby]

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So there's no benefit to putting season tickets on sale now as they couldn't use the money until they exit administration.

While they can't use the money now, the earlier they are on sale, the more they will sell.
Assume they get their CVA and eventually come out of admin a week before the season starts. The chances of them selling 8000 season tickets in a week to people with cash up front is very slim.
The sooner they are on sale the better for them.

[Craig_in_Prague]

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Link doesn't work :(

Notification of UAB Valnetas, the Bankruptcy administrator of BAB Ūkio bankas, on convening the first meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio bankas
2014-02-28

Dear creditor,

The bankruptcy administrator of the failing AB Ūkio Bankas, legal entity code 112020136 (hereinafter, BAB Ūkio Bankas) hereby notifies you of the convocation of the first meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas. The receipt of this letter confirms that your financial claim against BAB Ūkio Bankas has been approved by the final judgement of the Kaunas Regional Court and you are entitled to take part in the meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas and express your will by voting on the matters included on the agenda of the meeting in accordance with the procedure prescribed herein and in the ballot paper.

Basic information about the ground for convening the meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas, the place and time of the meeting

By the judgement of 2 May 2013, the Kaunas Regional Court initiated bankruptcy proceedings against AB Ūkio Bankas, appointed UAB Valnetas (legal entity code 135778275, authorisation for provision of bankruptcy administration services No. 69) to be the bankruptcy administrator ofBAB Ūkio Bankas, with Gintaras Adomonis (bankruptcy administrator qualification certificate No. 427c) as an authorised person, tel.: (8 37) 20 27 22, fax.: (8 37) 20 27 40, e-mail: [email protected] email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. . The Kaunas Regional Court’s judgement initiating bankruptcy proceedings came into effect on 7 June 2013.

By the judgement of 17 October 2013, the Kaunas Regional Court confirmed the list of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas and their financial claims. On 11 February 2014, the Court of Appeal of Lithuania by its final judgement rejected the complaints regarding the approval of the financial claim of the State undertaking Deposit and Investment Insurance (VĮ Indėlių ir Investicijų Draudimas), constituting more than half of the total financial claims lodged against the Bank.

In the light of the above circumstances and referring to Article 22 of the Enterprise Bankruptcy Law, please be informed that the first meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas will be held on 18 March 2014 (Tuesday) at 10:00 a.m., at the following address: Kovo 11 – osios g. 26, Kaunas (in the hall of the Girstutis Culture Centre (Girstučio kultūros centras)). The registration of participants begins at 09:00 a.m.

Agenda of the meeting of creditors of the Bank and voting on the matters on the agenda

The purpose of the first meeting of creditors being convened is to elect the committee of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas, which, referring to Article 85(6) of the Law of the Republic of Lithuania on Banks, may enjoy all the rights granted by the Enterprise Bankruptcy Law of the Republic of Lithuania to the creditors’ meeting (except for the right to form and change the composition of the creditors’ meeting). Therefore, the first meeting of creditors of the Bank will consider the following agenda, where resolutions on the agenda matters will be taken in voting by the creditors:

1.Electing the secretary and the chairman of the meeting of creditors;
2.Determining the number of members of the creditors’ committee of BAB Ūkio Bankas;
3.Electing the members of the creditors’ committee of BAB Ūkio Bankas.
Referring to Article 85(6) of the Law on Banks and Article 25 of the Enterprise Bankruptcy Law, the creditors’ committee of the Bank must have at least 5 members and not more than 15 members. The State undertaking Deposit and Investment Insurance (VĮ Indėlių ir Investicijų Draudimas) must be one of the members of the creditors’ committee. The representative of the Bank’s employees authorised to defend employment-related claims must be elected to the creditors’ committee.

Draft resolutions on the agenda matters proposed by the bankruptcy administrator are specified in the enclosed ballot paper for written voting.

Creditors may vote in writing on the matters included on the agenda, by filling in the enclosed ballot paper for written voting. Witten votes will be included in the voting for the resolutions adopted at the creditors’ meeting. The ballot paper for written voting may be delivered in two ways:

1.by 12 March 2014 (inclusive), sending a properly filled in and singed ballot paper to BAB Ūkio Bankas by mail to the following address: Maironio g. 26/Laisvės al. 80, Kaunas. All ballot papers received by BAB Ūkio Bankas after 17:00 p.m. on 17 March 2014 will not be included in the voting results;
2.by 12 March 2014 (inclusive), serving a properly filled in and singed ballot paper to BAB Ūkio Bankas upon arrival at the bank, at the following address: Maironio g. 26/Laisvės al. 80, Kaunas. Ballots may be delivered within the established time limit on business days from 9:00 a.m. till 12:00 p.m. and from 13:00 p.m. till 17:00 p.m. Upon arrival at BAB Ūkio Bankas, the creditor must have a personal identification document.
The Bank’s creditors are entitled to submit draft resolutions proposed by them with respect to the matters on the agenda to be voted at the first meeting of creditors by 12 March 2014, 17:00 p.m. Proposals may be submitted by filling in the ballot paper for written voting (unless the creditor attends the meeting) or by submitting a written proposal on the matter included on the agenda (if the creditor attends the meeting and/or does not wish to vote in writing). Proposals for the agenda must be submitted following the same procedure as in the event of the ballot paper for written voting. The creditor may propose to vote and the meeting will vote only for the whole composition of the creditors’ committee (not for individual members of the committee).

The course and the procedure of the meeting.

Upon arrival at the meeting of creditors, please have with you:

1.a personal identification document (passport, identity card);
2.a proxy if you represent a natural or legal person (if you represent other natural person, a proxy certified by a notary public; if you represent a legal person, a proxy issued by a representative of the legal person; attorneys-at-law representing a natural or legal person must have the representation agreement);
3.a pen for filling in a ballot paper.
The bankruptcy administrator of the Bank by his decision establishes the following procedure of the expected meeting of creditors:

•Registration of the participants of the meeting begins at 09:00 a.m.;
•The meeting of creditors begins at 10:00 a.m. and the agenda and the procedure of the meeting is presented;
•The participants of the meeting adopt resolutions on the agenda matters by voting;
•The review of actions carried out in the bankruptcy proceedings against the Bank is presented (no voting takes place);
•The meeting is closed.
Please note that you are not obliged to participate and vote at the meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas, you should decide yourself as to the participation and voting in the meeting. Your choice not to participate and/or vote at the meeting will not affect your financial claim and/or its satisfaction in accordance with the procedure prescribed by law. No issues relating to the satisfaction of claims or sale of the assets of BAB Ūkio Bankas or any other matters, with the exception of those specified in the agenda provided for herein, will be considered in the meeting of creditors being convened.

ENCLOSED: Ballot paper for written voting in the first meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas.

Sincerely

Gintaras Adomonis,

Authorised person of UAB Valnetas, the bankruptcy administrator of BAB Ūkio Bankas

[Weststandwanab]

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Link doesn't work :(

Sorry it does for me.

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Thanks for doing that.

[Mikey09]

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oh yeah, the wee comfort blanket............




Pink_blanket.jpg

Ahh.... That's the very one!! How something so small and insignificant can take all your troubles away. Thanks Craig....

[Ozyhibby]

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And here it starts.

http://www.ub.lt/en/to-creditors/news/73-notification-of-uab-valnetas-the-bankruptcy-administrator-of-bab-ukio-bankas-on-convening-the-first-meeting-of-creditors-of-bab-ukio-bankas

Hope the link works.

To Yams reading be afraid very afraid.

Looks like the yams are facing another delay. There is no way they can be discussed at this meeting or there would be a mention in the postal voting part?

[GreenLake]

Lithuanians are very concerned about the events unfolding in Ukraine and fear they might be next in line for Russian tanks rolling in. Yams don't do themselves any favours by incessantly lauding "King Vlad" and his "proud" Russian origins. Lithuanians in fear of their national security won't be worried about unfreezing shares and passing a CVA, especially when the Jambos worship a Russian Submariner who looted their banks.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/03/0...-takeover.html

[Hermit Crab]

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Notification of UAB Valnetas, the Bankruptcy administrator of BAB Ūkio bankas, on convening the first meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio bankas
2014-02-28

Dear creditor,

The bankruptcy administrator of the failing AB Ūkio Bankas, legal entity code 112020136 (hereinafter, BAB Ūkio Bankas) hereby notifies you of the convocation of the first meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas. The receipt of this letter confirms that your financial claim against BAB Ūkio Bankas has been approved by the final judgement of the Kaunas Regional Court and you are entitled to take part in the meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas and express your will by voting on the matters included on the agenda of the meeting in accordance with the procedure prescribed herein and in the ballot paper.

Basic information about the ground for convening the meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas, the place and time of the meeting

By the judgement of 2 May 2013, the Kaunas Regional Court initiated bankruptcy proceedings against AB Ūkio Bankas, appointed UAB Valnetas (legal entity code 135778275, authorisation for provision of bankruptcy administration services No. 69) to be the bankruptcy administrator ofBAB Ūkio Bankas, with Gintaras Adomonis (bankruptcy administrator qualification certificate No. 427c) as an authorised person, tel.: (8 37) 20 27 22, fax.: (8 37) 20 27 40, e-mail: [email protected] email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. . The Kaunas Regional Court’s judgement initiating bankruptcy proceedings came into effect on 7 June 2013.

By the judgement of 17 October 2013, the Kaunas Regional Court confirmed the list of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas and their financial claims. On 11 February 2014, the Court of Appeal of Lithuania by its final judgement rejected the complaints regarding the approval of the financial claim of the State undertaking Deposit and Investment Insurance (VĮ Indėlių ir Investicijų Draudimas), constituting more than half of the total financial claims lodged against the Bank.

In the light of the above circumstances and referring to Article 22 of the Enterprise Bankruptcy Law, please be informed that the first meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas will be held on 18 March 2014 (Tuesday) at 10:00 a.m., at the following address: Kovo 11 – osios g. 26, Kaunas (in the hall of the Girstutis Culture Centre (Girstučio kultūros centras)). The registration of participants begins at 09:00 a.m.

Agenda of the meeting of creditors of the Bank and voting on the matters on the agenda

The purpose of the first meeting of creditors being convened is to elect the committee of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas, which, referring to Article 85(6) of the Law of the Republic of Lithuania on Banks, may enjoy all the rights granted by the Enterprise Bankruptcy Law of the Republic of Lithuania to the creditors’ meeting (except for the right to form and change the composition of the creditors’ meeting). Therefore, the first meeting of creditors of the Bank will consider the following agenda, where resolutions on the agenda matters will be taken in voting by the creditors:

1.Electing the secretary and the chairman of the meeting of creditors;
2.Determining the number of members of the creditors’ committee of BAB Ūkio Bankas;
3.Electing the members of the creditors’ committee of BAB Ūkio Bankas.
Referring to Article 85(6) of the Law on Banks and Article 25 of the Enterprise Bankruptcy Law, the creditors’ committee of the Bank must have at least 5 members and not more than 15 members. The State undertaking Deposit and Investment Insurance (VĮ Indėlių ir Investicijų Draudimas) must be one of the members of the creditors’ committee. The representative of the Bank’s employees authorised to defend employment-related claims must be elected to the creditors’ committee.

Draft resolutions on the agenda matters proposed by the bankruptcy administrator are specified in the enclosed ballot paper for written voting.

Creditors may vote in writing on the matters included on the agenda, by filling in the enclosed ballot paper for written voting. Witten votes will be included in the voting for the resolutions adopted at the creditors’ meeting. The ballot paper for written voting may be delivered in two ways:

1.by 12 March 2014 (inclusive), sending a properly filled in and singed ballot paper to BAB Ūkio Bankas by mail to the following address: Maironio g. 26/Laisvės al. 80, Kaunas. All ballot papers received by BAB Ūkio Bankas after 17:00 p.m. on 17 March 2014 will not be included in the voting results;
2.by 12 March 2014 (inclusive), serving a properly filled in and singed ballot paper to BAB Ūkio Bankas upon arrival at the bank, at the following address: Maironio g. 26/Laisvės al. 80, Kaunas. Ballots may be delivered within the established time limit on business days from 9:00 a.m. till 12:00 p.m. and from 13:00 p.m. till 17:00 p.m. Upon arrival at BAB Ūkio Bankas, the creditor must have a personal identification document.
The Bank’s creditors are entitled to submit draft resolutions proposed by them with respect to the matters on the agenda to be voted at the first meeting of creditors by 12 March 2014, 17:00 p.m. Proposals may be submitted by filling in the ballot paper for written voting (unless the creditor attends the meeting) or by submitting a written proposal on the matter included on the agenda (if the creditor attends the meeting and/or does not wish to vote in writing). Proposals for the agenda must be submitted following the same procedure as in the event of the ballot paper for written voting. The creditor may propose to vote and the meeting will vote only for the whole composition of the creditors’ committee (not for individual members of the committee).

The course and the procedure of the meeting.

Upon arrival at the meeting of creditors, please have with you:

1.a personal identification document (passport, identity card);
2.a proxy if you represent a natural or legal person (if you represent other natural person, a proxy certified by a notary public; if you represent a legal person, a proxy issued by a representative of the legal person; attorneys-at-law representing a natural or legal person must have the representation agreement);
3.a pen for filling in a ballot paper.
The bankruptcy administrator of the Bank by his decision establishes the following procedure of the expected meeting of creditors:

•Registration of the participants of the meeting begins at 09:00 a.m.;
•The meeting of creditors begins at 10:00 a.m. and the agenda and the procedure of the meeting is presented;
•The participants of the meeting adopt resolutions on the agenda matters by voting;
•The review of actions carried out in the bankruptcy proceedings against the Bank is presented (no voting takes place);
•The meeting is closed.
Please note that you are not obliged to participate and vote at the meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas, you should decide yourself as to the participation and voting in the meeting. Your choice not to participate and/or vote at the meeting will not affect your financial claim and/or its satisfaction in accordance with the procedure prescribed by law. No issues relating to the satisfaction of claims or sale of the assets of BAB Ūkio Bankas or any other matters, with the exception of those specified in the agenda provided for herein, will be considered in the meeting of creditors being convened.

ENCLOSED: Ballot paper for written voting in the first meeting of creditors of BAB Ūkio Bankas.

Sincerely

Gintaras Adomonis,

Authorised person of UAB Valnetas, the bankruptcy administrator of BAB Ūkio Bankas

Cheers for that.

[Sergey]

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Looks like the yams are facing another delay. There is no way they can be discussed at this meeting or there would be a mention in the postal voting part?

This is old news as GreenGinger posted this when the document was issued on the 28th February.

As has been mentioned, this is nothing more than an election of the creditors committee - the exact same thing needs to happen with UBIG and as yet, there's no mention of their initial meeting taking place.

#allverycomplex
#allverytimeconsuming
#freezerstillon

[Ozyhibby]

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This is old news as GreenGinger posted this when the document was issued on the 28th February.

As has been mentioned, this is nothing more than an election of the creditors committee - the exact same thing needs to happen with UBIG and as yet, there's no mention of their initial meeting taking place.

#allverycomplex
#allverytimeconsuming
#freezerstillon

So there is a fair chance that these guys are going meet, elect a creditors committee, have a quick vote to see who brings the custard creams to the next meeting and schedule it for about 6 months time when the new creditor committee will have had a chance to see what they are dealing with?