Scottish Independence

[Bristolhibby]

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No is doubting that we could run Scotland but its a choice of whether we want to or not. As for negative stories, it's all how you take it, I would rather have the facts. The 3 major parties at Westminster have said they will not be going into a currency union. That's not scare stories or negative its fact. As Scottish people we deserve to be told the truth. If some don't like that then that's tough. It's time the SNP told us there currency of choice as the sterling is no longer an opition

But its not a fact though is it? Its merely a set out position as a prerequisate to negotiations.

Scotland could in effect refuse to take on her share of the debt. And forget all the wishy washy statement about debt markets. The debt is backed up by the Bank of England and Sterling. The Scottish Pound wont have any debt. It will have a massive amount of assets to back it up.

Also, the rUK would struggle with said debt if roughly 10% of its ability to service that debt dissapeared overnight. The run on Sterling would be massive as the market would look to dump currency that was perceved as "risky".

Dont believe that the UK parties are looking out for the interests of Scotland and Scotlands people. The status quo suits them. If everybody wants more of the same, then crack on vote no. But dont for a second believe that we could not look after ourselves, be prosperous and a valid contributer to a Sterling Currency Union.

The Negotiations before Independence will take two years. There will be give and take, we wont know what the outcome will be until this has happened.

J

[Beefster]

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Is it a fact though?

Yes. All three UK parties with a chance of being in the current or next UK government have ruled it out.

[JimBHibees]

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Yes. All three UK parties with a chance of being in the current or next UK government have ruled it out.

More like cynical political positioning.

[Beefster]

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More like cynical political positioning.

The cries of "Don't listen to the media. Don't listen to the other parties. Only listen to us." are becoming increasingly ludicrous IMHO. The SNP are currently like a kid with a Christmas list who goes "la, la, la, not listening, Santa will still bring it" whenever he's told that he won't be getting something on the list IMHO.

Most important national issue in most of our lifetimes. The worst national debate in most of our lifetimes.

[Bristolhibby]

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Yes. All three UK parties with a chance of being in the current or next UK government have ruled it out.

You must know, what politicians say and what they actually do, is always the most pragmatic option open to them.

Posturing IMHO. They are just setting out their stall.

Im more interested in the vote for democratic reasons. Scotland can chose who it wants to represent the people 100% of the time. Surely these elected representatives will have whats good for Scotland at heart, not whats good for the rest of the UK?

J

[Hibercelona]

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Yes. All three UK parties with a chance of being in the current or next UK government have ruled it out.

So saying something makes it a fact now does it?

Pulling us out of the currency union would be highly damaging on the rest of the UK. Trading costs would likely sky rocket if we were forced into a currency alternative.

That's not a price that the UK can afford to pay.

We hold the most valuable trading assets in the UK. They "wont" force us out of the currency union regardless of what happens. It's not a route they can afford to take.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Yes. All three UK parties with a chance of being in the current or next UK government have ruled it out.

I'm looking at it in terms of a separation/divorce.

When couples separate, they tend to make the decision first, and then negotiate the practicalities. One party might say "if you leave me, I'll have the kids/the dog/the house", but only as a tool to try and make the other party stay. They can't actually stipulate those terms, no matter how much they might want them, and the actual agreement comes about through negotiation.

If you apply that thinking to the whole independence/separation debate......

[Geo_1875]

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I'm looking at it in terms of a separation/divorce.

When couples separate, they tend to make the decision first, and then negotiate the practicalities. One party might say "if you leave me, I'll have the kids/the dog/the house", but only as a tool to try and make the other party stay. They can't actually stipulate those terms, no matter how much they might want them, and the actual agreement comes about through negotiation.

If you apply that thinking to the whole independence/separation debate......

That's how I look at it. As for the currency, I can't see how the UK political parties can say there won't be a union. They are simply stating their current position but if they get a good deal out of any negotiations they wouldn't be doing what they are elected to do if they refused.

[Hibrandenburg]

[QUOTE=Beefster;3905878]The cries of "Don't listen to the media. Don't listen to the other parties. Only listen to us." are becoming increasingly ludicrous IMHO. The SNP are currently like a kid with a Christmas list who goes "la, la, la, not listening, Santa will still bring it" whenever he's told that he won't be getting something on the list IMHO.
[Quote]

Quite rightly too. Unionists have form when it comes to being economical with the truth to the Scottish electorate. It's a risky tactic if they get caught out again then most will see through the bull****.

[Hibercelona]

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That's how I look at it. As for the currency, I can't see how the UK political parties can say there won't be a union. They are simply stating their current position but if they get a good deal out of any negotiations they wouldn't be doing what they are elected to do if they refused.

Exactly. Logic has to be applied here. It would be completely illogical for them to force us out.

All I keep hearing from Westminister is that if we leave the UK, they'll force us out of the currency union, which will have a negative impact on trading.

Which is why it's not in their best interests to force us out, even if we do go independent.

They would be going against the best interests of the UK, by forcing us out.

It's nothing more than blatant scaremongering.

[marinello59]

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I was talking about bbc scotland news.

Where it was widely discussed at the time of his speech and has been referred to when relevant since.

[RyeSloan]

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Jeez I really cannot believe just how ignorant you actually sound by saying that, it's this kind of attitude that makes many Scots want a separate parliament again. I refer you my earlier post about the Scottish pound, in fact all bank notes in Britain are not legal tender in Scotland, only coins are. These notes may be accepted as payment throughout the United Kingdom, but are much more commonly seen in Scotland; they represent the same Pound Sterling value as do Bank of England notes in England and Wales. Whilst banknotes issued by the Scottish banks are legal currency, that is approved by the UK Parliament, no banknotes issued by Scottish banks, Northern Ireland banks nor the Bank of England are legal tender in Scotland. Thus legal tender in Scotland is limited to coin as noted above. So technically I can refuse to take English notes when they visit Edinburgh, would love to see their faces when I tell them payment for their taxi fare is coins only

Keep yer hair on.

So are Scottish bank notes considered legal tender or not? I see nothing in your reply that suggests they are or anything that would make my posting seem so incredibly ignorant...in fact subsequent postings has shown that Scottish notes are not considered legal tender so not quite sure what yer wee hissy fit was about.

Dunno how discussing the technical details of what a certain description of Scottish notes means would lead you to believe that it would drive people to want a separate parliament but whatever floats yet boat I suppose.

[JimBHibees]

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The cries of "Don't listen to the media. Don't listen to the other parties. Only listen to us." are becoming increasingly ludicrous IMHO. The SNP are currently like a kid with a Christmas list who goes "la, la, la, not listening, Santa will still bring it" whenever he's told that he won't be getting something on the list IMHO.

Most important national issue in most of our lifetimes. The worst national debate in most of our lifetimes.

Completely agree the debate is poor however you are not saying that the media are impartial are you. Very one sided and pro-union.

[JimBHibees]

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Where it was widely discussed at the time of his speech and has been referred to when relevant since.

I am talking about the little segment on the BBC breakfast BBC Scotland bit where without fail every morning there is a slanted anti Independence story line. I think the day before they mentioned Carney's speech when obviously he didnt say what they wanted, no coverage was given of it. Like it or not however that segment will be alot of peoples only news of the day and to me it is very biased. I think they had a story once about Scottish Whiskey being dependent on English farmers.

[marinello59]

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I am talking about the little segment on the BBC breakfast BBC Scotland bit where without fail every morning there is a slanted anti Independence story line. I think the day before they mentioned Carney's speech when obviously he didnt say what they wanted, no coverage was given of it. Like it or not however that segment will be alot of peoples only news of the day and to me it is very biased. I think they had a story once about Scottish Whiskey being dependent on English farmers.

Oh dear, I think you are only seeing (or not seeing) what you want to when it comes to press coverage.

[lucky]

To me it is a fact, the 3 parties that could/will govern the rUK have ruled out a currency union. It's time for the SNP to give us an alternative. As for politicians bluff and telling half truths I think we will all struggle to be beat Salmond. If Scotland does not take it share of the debt it will not get a share of the assets. If that's the case how do we pay for the start up of the new country? No army, navy, airforce with equipment. No fisheries protection. No joined up railway as Network rail is UK based. No passports. No embassies or high commissions. That's before we start looking at our services. It's time for the separatists to tell us how this is all going happen rather than taking the Yam way of burying their heads in the sand and hoping it will all be better tomorrow

[CropleyWasGod]

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To me it is a fact, the 3 parties that could/will govern the rUK have ruled out a currency union. It's time for the SNP to give us an alternative. As for politicians bluff and telling half truths I think we will all struggle to be beat Salmond. If Scotland does not take it share of the debt it will not get a share of the assets. If that's the case how do we pay for the start up of the new country? No army, navy, airforce with equipment. No fisheries protection. No joined up railway as Network rail is UK based. No passports. No embassies or high commissions. That's before we start looking at our services. It's time for the separatists to tell us how this is all going happen rather than taking the Yam way of burying their heads in the sand and hoping it will all be better tomorrow

An alternative view, from a reasonably well-informed source.

http://www.adamsmith.org/news/press-...-pound-without

[JimBHibees]

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Oh dear, I think you are only seeing (or not seeing) what you want to when it comes to press coverage.

Not at all, think it is one sided to a large degree. Admittedly I only really see little bits here and there usually BBC in the morning. Do you genuinely think that the press are balanced and fair? Some of the press would never write anything positive about the possibility of an Independent Scotland.

[JimBHibees]

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To me it is a fact, the 3 parties that could/will govern the rUK have ruled out a currency union. It's time for the SNP to give us an alternative. As for politicians bluff and telling half truths I think we will all struggle to be beat Salmond. If Scotland does not take it share of the debt it will not get a share of the assets. If that's the case how do we pay for the start up of the new country? No army, navy, airforce with equipment. No fisheries protection. No joined up railway as Network rail is UK based. No passports. No embassies or high commissions. That's before we start looking at our services. It's time for the separatists to tell us how this is all going happen rather than taking the Yam way of burying their heads in the sand and hoping it will all be better tomorrow

No nuclear weapons as well. I thought you were beginning to sound like the Proclaimers , Letter from America or the song from Only fools and Horses, No income tax, no vat etc

[PeeJay]

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Keep yer hair on.

So are Scottish bank notes considered legal tender or not? I see nothing in your reply that suggests they are or anything that would make my posting seem so incredibly ignorant...in fact subsequent postings has shown that Scottish notes are not considered legal tender so not quite sure what yer wee hissy fit was about.

Dunno how discussing the technical details of what a certain description of Scottish notes means would lead you to believe that it would drive people to want a separate parliament but whatever floats yet boat I suppose.

The answer seems to be "no" and here's the BoE's definition to prove it ...

"Are Scottish & Northern Ireland notes "legal tender"?"
In short ‘No’ these notes are not "legal tender"; furthermore, Bank of England notes are only legal tender in England and Wales. Legal tender has, however, a very narrow technical meaning in relation to the settlement of debt. If a debtor pays in legal tender the exact amount he/she owes under the terms of a contract (and in accordance with its terms), or pays this amount into court, he/she has good defence in law if he/she is sued for non-payment of the debt.
In ordinary everyday transactions, the term "legal tender" in its purest sense need not govern a note's acceptability in transactions. The acceptability of a Scottish or Northern Ireland note as a means of payment is essentially a matter for agreement between the parties involved. If both parties are in agreement, Scottish and Northern Ireland notes can be used in England and Wales. Holders of genuine Scottish and Northern Ireland notes are provided with a level of protection similar to that provided to holders of Bank of England notes. This is because the issuing banks must back their note issue using a combination of Bank of England notes, UK coin and funds in an interest bearing bank account at the Bank of England. More information on these arrangements can be found at
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/about/
scottish_northernireland.aspx

[marinello59]

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Not at all, think it is one sided to a large degree. Admittedly I only really see little bits here and there usually BBC in the morning. Do you genuinely think that the press are balanced and fair? Some of the press would never write anything positive about the possibility of an Independent Scotland.

I do think the coverage has been pretty fair when it comes to getting the issues out there. If you are talking about opinion pieces then of course some correspondents will write very little that is positive about us becoming Independent whilst some will write nothing positive about remaining in the Union.
The reporting on Carney's speech I found particularly well done. It was portrayed as being a pretty neutral speech which both sides could claim as being good news for their argument. Which is exactly what it was.

[Alex Trager]

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I do think the coverage has been pretty fair when it comes to getting the issues out there. If you are talking about opinion pieces then of course some correspondents will write very little that is positive about us becoming Independent whilst some will write nothing positive about remaining in the Union.
The reporting on Carney's speech I found particularly well done. It was portrayed as being a pretty neutral speech which both sides could claim as being good news for their argument. Which is exactly what it was.

Have a wee look at this piece carried out by the university of west of Scotland

[Alex Trager]

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php...academic-study

[JimBHibees]

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http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php...academic-study

Interesting study and completely fits with my view to be honest in particular the bit about the Irish politician's comments about EU membership and the refusal by the BBC to broadcast her rebuttal is absolutely disgusting.

[allmodcons]

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If we vote Yes then this will be subject to negotiation with both sides having to concede ground. I'm not so sure that a Tory chancellor playing hard ball at this stage is helpful. A currency union would have benefits to the rest of the UK so to simply dismiss it now without any meaningful debate seems wrong.

This is correct!

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That's just completely wrong.

Currency union is not functionally related to share of debt except in so far as Sturgeon/Salmond etc may try to make it a negotiating position that they would not take a share of debt unless the rest of the UK agrees to the currency union they are demanding.

The problem with that nuclear option is the effect it would have on both the capacity to borrow and the interest rate at which any borrowing would require to be paid by a separate Scotland. Money markets seeing that one of the first acts of a separate Scottish Goverment was to walk away from any debt responsibility would take a pretty dim view of any prospective future lending. In other words they would loan less and charge much more because of the risk premium.

That means taxes up to pay for the higher costs of borrowing, public spending further restricted to pay for the higher costs of borrowing and a smaller capital expenditure budget all round. But greater freedom to raise and spend more money on capital projects like infrastructure is one of the main public finance arguments John Swinney prays in aid for independence. They're shooting their own fox if they pursue this line.

Come on ODS, don’t tell me international lenders will refuse us credit. They won’t look at the morality if that’s what it is. They are profiteers who will look at our credit worthiness….£1.5 trillion in oil assets, a highly developed successful economy, a highly educated workforce, renewables, exports including whisky and food and to cap it all – NO SOVEREIGN DEBT.

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Oh dear, I think you are only seeing (or not seeing) what you want to when it comes to press coverage.

You've got this wrong M59. Check out the facts:-

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-gov...on/#more-49655

[lucky]

Loving the quoting of two Nat websites. Come on that's as bad as the Yams phrase of " we owe it to ourself" let's have some decent evidence to back the argument not a Nat telling us Nats are right

[LancsHibs]

The chancellors statement today was a typical attempt at bullying, this is what it's come down to." Now settle down Scotland and tow the line, or else". Now if his statement and attitude hasn't made anybody's mind up to vote Yes then I don't know what will. The establishment at Westminster do not view Scotland as equals and never will. Stick it to the toffs

[yeezus.]

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Loving the quoting of two Nat websites. Come on that's as bad as the Yams phrase of " we owe it to ourself" let's have some decent evidence to back the argument not a Nat telling us Nats are right

newsnetscotland and wingsoverscotland are hardly impartial, evidence-based sites.

[allmodcons]

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Loving the quoting of two Nat websites. Come on that's as bad as the Yams phrase of " we owe it to ourself" let's have some decent evidence to back the argument not a Nat telling us Nats are right

Unlike you, this is where we have to go see the other side of the story. You can pick up a Daily Record, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Guardian, Daily Express and get the Unionist slant. Have a wee look at Alan Cochrane in the Daily Telegraph if you don't believe me.

Also, can you name a single newspaper with a pro iScotland editorial line?

Do you think this is a healthy state of affairs for readers of MSM?

[allmodcons]

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newsnetscotland and wingsoverscotland are hardly impartial, evidence-based sites.

See my reply to Lucky.