Scottish Independence

[One Day Soon]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

1. "That's the problem. IMO the Mother of all Parliaments doesn't reflect the views of the vast majority of Scots."

Technically the Scottish Parliament also doesn't reflect the views of the majority of Scots, most of whom voted in 2011 for parties other than the SNP. And it is elected only by Scots, just as an independent parliament would be. The SNP got about 45% of the vote and more than 50% of the seats yet virtually all policy decisions have been determined by one party. So what's the difference? A simpler and less costly answer to your objection would be electoral reform of the Westminster Parliament.

2. "successive UK Governments have a proven track record handling these matters - £1.4 trillion of debt"

Your comment on £1.4 trillion of debt is irrelevant to the point I was raising and which you did not address. The amount we can borrow and spend is determined on a pooled basis by all the representatives of the nations within the UK - not dictated by non-Scots. (the same pooled basis that John Swinney favours for a future independent Scotland participating in the pound as our currency - but more of that later).

As to the £1.4 trillion of debt itself, do you seriously imagine that simply by being independent we are somehow automatically going to be different from most other western economies or that we would have been unaffected by the global trashing of economies that has taken place over the last five years between banking crisis and economic turndown? Being Scottish doesn't mean you somehow make better spending, borrowing or taxation decisions. Equally being a UK government doesn't mean you somehow automatically make bad economic decisions. As a point of reference, the most recent figures I could find (2012) showed our percentage of debt to GDP (88%) as lower than that of Japan, Italy, Portugal, United States, Ireland, Singapore, Belgium, Iceland and France. Even Germany at 81% is not far behind the UK.

3. "Maybe, just maybe, an iScotland would take a different approach to the politics of greed that prevail at Westminister (witness Helen Liddell in the House of Lords last week - a Labour left winger?? what a ****ing joke)."

I'm not a fan of Liddell but I don't follow this bit. What did she say in the debate?

4. "The Bank of England, is not an rUK institution. I think a quick look at the UK balance of payments will tell you that a 'sterling zone' is in the best interests of rUK."

Nothing is as yet an rUK institution, but the Bank of England certainly would be.

Jim Sillars, former SNP Deputy Leader, doesn't agree with you: "The claim that sterling is as much ours as that of Westminster, an asset Scotland has the right to share, doesn’t stand examination. Foreign currency balances and gold held by the Bank of England are indeed assets to be divided (if they still have any), but a currency per se, like sterling, is a badge of sovereignty printed by a sovereign government, and that will be the badge of ‘England plus’ or what has come to be called rUK, once we depart.

.....Mark Carney, to his credit, came here and remained in technocratic mode. What he pointed out about a currency union is true – joining means “ceding” sovereignty. He did not say sovereignty was ‘pooled’, a word favoured by John Swinney, because Mr. Carney knows, and quoted the eruozone as evidence, that you don’t pool sovereignty, you transfer it, and lose it. The Greeks and Portuguese have learned that lesson in the harshest way imaginable.

....Scotland could also, of course, enter into a currency union with a future Westminster Government, but a lot more than transaction issues would be involved. To create a currency union requires a Treaty between two sovereign states. If the Westminster will not sign, there can be no currency union, and we have uncertainty. In the present debate, the SNP having tied itself to such a union, with no plan B, has passed to Osbourne control of its policy. Not clever politics. But, that’s the political corner SNP has painted itself into."

5. "Again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make regarding world markets? Does our Scottish Parliament really reflect and express the will of the Scottish people. If it does, why are the 3 Unionist Parties at Holyrood currently reviewing the powers of the Parliament?"

My point is that you are proposing massive constitutional change to little purpose as far as a good deal of factors such as interest rates etc are concerned given that international money markets effectively constrain what freedom governments actually have in reality to determine policy. My understanding is that the three parties that want Scotland to stay in the UK are currently reviewing the powers of the Scottish Parliament with a view to subtantially increasing them.

6. "As I've already said, the Bank of England does not belong to rUK. Yes, rUK would be the main player, but, after the political posturing is put to one side, I have no doubt both parties (rUK and iScotland) would look to find a common platform from which to progress their respective economies. You're obviously no fool, and know full well that Independence in the modern era is a lot different to what was mean't by Independence even 40 or 50 years ago. The bottom line, however, is that Scotalnd would be able to decide when, and with whom, to pool sovereignty."

See the Jim Sillars quotes above and below. It wouldn't be pooling sovereignty, it would be ceding it.

Until someone can explain why we would want to sign up for a deal that means we get to decide tax rates, while another country decides the cost of our mortgages this will remain a daft proposal. I don't know what you mean when you say "Independence in the modern era is a lot different to what was mean't by Independence even 40 or 50 years ago" unless that is supposed to somehow explain away or massage a proposed independence trade off that gives us the appearance of sovereignty but the reality of constitutional economic emasculation.

Jim Sillars:

"On the fundamental issue of a currency union, common sense , and past forgotten lessons, have flown out of the SNP cabinet window. For years, the SNP has complained about the Bank of England and its obsessive concern for London and south east England. John Swinney is on the record, criticising Eddie George the then Governor for saying it was not feasible to protect “particular sections or regions. The Swinney response noted the Bank’s policy “does not take into account the needs of the north of England or Scotland – as evidenced by the fact that members of the Bank of England monetary policy committee is overwhelmingly based in the south east of England.”
Staggeringly, this is the same MPC John Swinney would have us join now: A committee comprising; five from the bank and four nominated by the UK Government. Six are Oxbridge, and all nine are anchored in London. Only one of them has any past connection outside the south of England bubble. One Scot among that lot would make no difference whatsoever. Nine members would represent 55 million people, while one represented our 5 million. We would have traded independent power over our economy for the status, once again, of a powerless region. That is not a price worth paying to use a currency, which we can access anyway."


7. "With regard to Mark Carney, I thought his analysis was fairly balanced but happen to think that the economic dispartities between certain Eurozone member states make any comparsion with a 'Sterling Zone' somewhat shaky."

Not really. Once you cede power over currency in the way proposed you are then locked in the boot of Big Brother's car. And Jim Sillars has spotted that perfectly.

8. "On a lighter note:-
1. You've still not trumped John Barrowman.
2. Did you enjoy the dance around your lounge with your son whilst watching 9 man ICT beat Hearts?
3. Are you Ian Gray?

"

I will grant you that trumping John Barrowan (oo err missus) is not easy. But I think Sean Connery, Eddi Reader and Elaine C Smith are a pretty unedifying bunch for a variety of reasons related variously to residency, tax contributions, pompousness and just general irrelevance. To be honest I detest the involvement of 'celebrities' in politics of any sort. I think it is shallow and helps debase political debate. It's kind of like "Oi you working class/tv addled oiks, we can't think of a way to engage you in a serious discussion about this so here's some completely unqualified talking head to reach out to you patronisingly and dumb it all down". Kenny Everett with the Tories, Tracy Ullman with Labour, Ian ****ing Hislop with the Lib/Dems. Give it a rest I say.

The wee guy was happy as Larry with the result and with how joyously his dad was shouting his head off and whooping around the room. Still smirking about that.

I'm not Ian Gray - there is more than one Hibs supporter in favour of Scotland remaining within the UK you know! I am however a thinking critic of 5hit politics and particularly the politics we are treated to in Scotland by all sides. What gets my goat most is the use of assertion in place of facts or evidence. I'm getting worse about this stuff too, I think it is a function of age.

You kindly said that I'm no fool. But look at this, I'm s******ing at you writing "economic dispartities" above. So I can be childish if not foolish.

[allmodcons]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

"

I will grant you that trumping John Barrowan (oo err missus) is not easy. But I think Sean Connery, Eddi Reader and Elaine C Smith are a pretty unedifying bunch for a variety of reasons related variously to residency, tax contributions, pompousness and just general irrelevance. To be honest I detest the involvement of 'celebrities' in politics of any sort. I think it is shallow and helps debase political debate. It's kind of like "Oi you working class/tv addled oiks, we can't think of a way to engage you in a serious discussion about this so here's some completely unqualified talking head to reach out to you patronisingly and dumb it all down". Kenny Everett with the Tories, Tracy Ullman with Labour, Ian ****ing Hislop with the Lib/Dems. Give it a rest I say.

The wee guy was happy as Larry with the result and with how joyously his dad was shouting his head off and whooping around the room. Still smirking about that.

I'm not Ian Gray - there is more than one Hibs supporter in favour of Scotland remaining within the UK you know! I am however a thinking critic of 5hit politics and particularly the politics we are treated to in Scotland by all sides. What gets my goat most is the use of assertion in place of facts or evidence. I'm getting worse about this stuff too, I think it is a function of age.

You kindly said that I'm no fool. But look at this, I'm s******ing at you writing "economic dispartities" above. So I can be childish if not foolish.

Will try to address some of the points in your 'essay' at a later date, but have to say your pointing our my 'economic dispartities' made me s****** too. Like a 15 year old schoolboy picking up on his teacher making a wee faux pas.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I don't have any time for Cameron or politics for that matter, but, I was quite impressed with his speech today. He might have balanced it too much towards an emotional plea for the union to remain intact, although as he said the speech was directed at people outwith Scotland, so, providing facts and figures to folk who can't vote would've just switched people off.

[heretoday]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I don't have any time for Cameron or politics for that matter, but, I was quite impressed with his speech today. He might have balanced it too much towards an emotional plea for the union to remain intact, although as he said the speech was directed at people outwith Scotland, so, providing facts and figures to folk who can't vote would've just switched people off.

Everyone knows where Cameron's sympathies lie - with the Union naturally enough. I don't see any point in his coming up to Scotland and debating with Salmond. Is Alex likely to change his mind? Or vice-versa?

It's more a chance for Salmond to try and score some cheap points. Let him do that against a fellow Scot, though he'll have a struggle against the articulate Mr Darling.

[One Day Soon]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Will try to address some of the points in your 'essay' at a later date, but have to say your pointing our my 'economic dispartities' made me s****** too. Like a 15 year old schoolboy picking up on his teacher making a wee faux pas.

I know, it was a bit of a slow day in the office this morning. Thought I would get into it.

[7 Hills]

Interesting report here: http://www.yesscotland.net/news/scot...onomic-experts

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Interesting report here: http://www.yesscotland.net/news/scot...onomic-experts

I love how anything that appears on yesscotland.net or similar cybernat sites is deemed interesting when actually all they are doing is preaching to the converted.

[hibs0666]

I passed some yes blokes handing out leaflets at queen street station. The rallying call was around vote yes and you'll never have a Tory government ever again.

Not surprising at all but pretty pathetic all the same.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[7 Hills]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I love how anything that appears on yesscotland.net or similar cybernat sites is deemed interesting when actually all they are doing is preaching to the converted.

Rather more interesting that the report referred to was compiled by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research which is based in the City of Westminster, London, wouldn't you say? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...ocial_Research

And you're unlikely to see this referred to in mainstream Scottish media outlets which are, by and large, ultimately controlled by London offices.

[Hibercelona]

Salmond tearing into the "non bias" BBC presenter and calling that coward Cameron out of hiding.

I don't usually have much time for Salmond, but he got stuck right in on this occassion.

[7 Hills]

Another interesting article - hopefully The Scotsman isn't deemed a "Cybernat" source…

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotlan...debt-1-3185848

[Beefster]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

And you're unlikely to see this referred to in mainstream Scottish media outlets which are, by and large, ultimately controlled by London offices.

Yet the London offices are reporting it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-26070030

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...rdable-warning

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...-finances.html

[Hibercelona]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I don't have any time for Cameron or politics for that matter, but, I was quite impressed with his speech today. He might have balanced it too much towards an emotional plea for the union to remain intact, although as he said the speech was directed at people outwith Scotland, so, providing facts and figures to folk who can't vote would've just switched people off.

I must have missed the facts and figures in his speech. All I kept hearing was "We're better together", with no real explaination as to why.

[Beefster]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Another interesting article - hopefully The Scotsman isn't deemed a "Cybernat" source…

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotlan...debt-1-3185848

The Scotsman may not be a Cybernat source but there is no doubt about where Gordon Macintyre-Kemp's loyalties lie given that he stood for the SNP before.

The message I keep hearing is don't trust the media but you can rely on 'YesScotland' and SNP folk.

[Glory Lurker]

[QUOTE=One Day Soon;3899368]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

As a Social Democrat I take the view that reinstating borders at Berwick and Carlisle - and thereby condeming Cardiff, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle and many other parts of England and Wales to legislation they don't want - isn't a very social or democratic way of behaving.

This is something I just don't understand. Why put up with the rubbish if you can walk away from it? Sure, it would be a shame for folk in rUK but I don't see the need to pass up on opportunities to improve Scotland just so that I can share a pain I can easy avoid.

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Rather more interesting that the report referred to was compiled by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research which is based in the City of Westminster, London, wouldn't you say? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...ocial_Research

And you're unlikely to see this referred to in mainstream Scottish media outlets which are, by and large, ultimately controlled by London offices.

The case for both sides has been well reported if you look without blinkers on. It's just a pity that both sides are making such a cr@p job of getting their messages across.

[Glory Lurker]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Let him do that against a fellow Scot, though he'll have a struggle against the articulate Mr Darling.

Salmond's opposite number is David Cameron. Perhaps if Cameron wasn't giving it all the "it's up to the Scots" while sticking his oar in at every opportunity then Salmond would be wrong to target him.

Darling's role in all this is as head honcho of Better Together. His opposite number is either Blair Jenkins or Denis Canavan (think it's Jenkins).

I wouldn't have any fears at all for Salmond versus Darling, but it's not the appropriate title bout.

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Another interesting article - hopefully The Scotsman isn't deemed a "Cybernat" source…

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotlan...debt-1-3185848

An opinion piece form the CEO of a group campaigning for a Yes vote? Surely that wouldn't be allowed in the mainstream media?

[lucky]

I had interesting meeting with the Electoral Commission today about donations and the "rules" of the referendum debate and campaigning. Think quiet a lot of groups/individuals are in for a shock on how strict it is. A lot of the splinter Yes groups such as Hibs for Yes or Yes Hibs, whatever they are called, could potentially be in breech of the spending rules. Especially when they have joining up to promote a Yes vote with others such as Jags for Yes as seen at the recent Thistle game. If the commission deem that these groups are working together then their cost are added together. So if every Premiership team had a similar organisation and do joint promotions at games or are seen to be working together then they will have to be a registered participant. I'll post the power point up as it's interesting how the referendum differed from a normal election.

[lucky]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/agbeh9v9ov...ion%202014.ppt


Hope this works

[stoneyburn hibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

"

I will grant you that trumping John Barrowan (oo err missus) is not easy. But I think Sean Connery, Eddi Reader and Elaine C Smith are a pretty unedifying bunch for a variety of reasons related variously to residency, tax contributions, pompousness and just general irrelevance. To be honest I detest the involvement of 'celebrities' in politics of any sort. I think it is shallow and helps debase political debate. It's kind of like "Oi you working class/tv addled oiks, we can't think of a way to engage you in a serious discussion about this so here's some completely unqualified talking head to reach out to you patronisingly and dumb it all down". Kenny Everett with the Tories, Tracy Ullman with Labour, Ian ****ing Hislop with the Lib/Dems. Give it a rest I say.

The wee guy was happy as Larry with the result and with how joyously his dad was shouting his head off and whooping around the room. Still smirking about that.

I'm not Ian Gray - there is more than one Hibs supporter in favour of Scotland remaining within the UK you know! I am however a thinking critic of 5hit politics and particularly the politics we are treated to in Scotland by all sides. What gets my goat most is the use of assertion in place of facts or evidence. I'm getting worse about this stuff too, I think it is a function of age.

You kindly said that I'm no fool. But look at this, I'm s******ing at you writing "economic dispartities" above. So I can be childish if not foolish.

I will give you Sean Connery as being unedifying, the other two naw. Both are passionate regarding Independence. Both live in Scotland too, so actually have a vote

[stoneyburn hibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I don't have any time for Cameron or politics for that matter, but, I was quite impressed with his speech today. He might have balanced it too much towards an emotional plea for the union to remain intact, although as he said the speech was directed at people outwith Scotland, so, providing facts and figures to folk who can't vote would've just switched people off.

It is people like yourself that dont have any interest in politics that is a worry, if you decide to vote. Especially if you are impressed by Dave.

[stoneyburn hibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Everyone knows where Cameron's sympathies lie - with the Union naturally enough. I don't see any point in his coming up to Scotland and debating with Salmond. Is Alex likely to change his mind? Or vice-versa?

It's more a chance for Salmond to try and score some cheap points. Let him do that against a fellow Scot, though he'll have a struggle against the articulate Mr Darling.

Dave has been saying since the beginning that it is a Scottish matter and he wont get involved, his stance ended today.
Lets see that debate now please.

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Dave has been saying since the beginning that it is a Scottish matter and he wont get involved, his stance ended today.
Lets see that debate now please.

Any debate between Salmond and Cameron would be an enjoyable sideshow at best. I'd rather see the Scots politicians on both sides raise their game than see Salmond's crude attempt to reduce the referundum to an anti-English Tory vote indulged.

[lucky]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Any debate between Salmond and Cameron would be an enjoyable sideshow at best. I'd rather see the Scots politicians on both sides raise their game than see Salmond's crude attempt to reduce the referundum to an anti-English Tory vote indulged.

100% correct. It's just spin by the SNP. What politician who can't vote in an election is going to take part in 121 debate. Cameron is not stupid. But its time the Nats realised this debate is not about Tory Britain v. Salmond's Scotland.

[Beefster]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It is people like yourself that dont have any interest in politics that is a worry, if you decide to vote. Especially if you are impressed by Dave.

Pesky electorate.

[marinello59]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Pesky electorate.

They ruin elections.

[CropleyWasGod]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

100% correct. It's just spin by the SNP. What politician who can't vote in an election is going to take part in 121 debate. Cameron is not stupid. But its time the Nats realised this debate is not about Tory Britain v. Salmond's Scotland.

Yet that same politician is urging those non-Scots who don't have a vote to try and influence those who do.

[stoneyburn hibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Pesky electorate.

Fair enough, point taken.

[lucky]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Yet that same politician is urging those non-Scots who don't have a vote to try and influence those who do.

Big difference asking friends and family to save the union compared to a live TV debate.