Scottish Independence

[yeezus.]

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Brown's like political arsenic. He's better well away from the campaign.

I thought he wasn't so unpopular with Scots...?

[steakbake]

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I thought he wasn't so unpopular with Scots...?

Are you joking? The man is a national embarrassment. Unless you ask him and his cronies who think he saved the world.

Why would Brown be popular? He was one of the most dismal Chancellors we had and probably the worst prime minister.

The Chinese on the other hand, love him as the guy who sold the UK gold reserves for a knock down price.

[green glory]

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Are you joking? The man is a national embarrassment. Unless you ask him and his cronies who think he saved the world. Why would Brown be popular? He was one of the most dismal Chancellors we had and probably the worst prime minister. The Chinese on the other hand, love him as the guy who sold the UK gold reserves for a knock down price.

He also described himself recently as a former politician in China. Something I'm sure his constituents probably aren't to chuffed about.

[southfieldhibby]

So whats the story?Billions extra or leaded weight round our neck?Who should be listen to?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...il-review.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...tay-in-UK.html

[green glory]

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So whats the story?Billions extra or leaded weight round our neck?Who should be listen to? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...il-review.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...tay-in-UK.html

Ask the Norwegians. The mill stone of oil wealth has condemned them to the highest standard of living in the world.

[frazeHFC]

[Sylar]

Any initial thoughts on the White Paper then?

I'm not in any camp per se but there are a lot of good things contained within the document. However, as a Scottish academic, this is still a major stumbling block:

Negotiating with the Westminster government a fair funding formula for the Scottish government to contribute to the funding of university research councils

That's a £3bn uncertainty right there which directly impacts every single academic currently working at a Scottish University.

The Westminster government don't need to accommodate any such requests and I was really hoping the SNP would have outlined a plan B should negotiations not yield an answer or a productive outcome.

As I said, there are a lot of positives outlined in the case but this, for me personally, is the deal-breaker.

[lucky]

Extremely light on detail, EU membership, £, no tax increases, passport if youve live 10 years in Scotland, pensions safeguarded all to be taken as happening because Alex Salmond says so. I doubt today's SNP manifesto will sway many people to vote yes

[Just Alf]

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Any initial thoughts on the White Paper then?

I'm not in any camp per se but there are a lot of good things contained within the document. However, as a Scottish academic, this is still a major stumbling block:



That's a £3bn uncertainty right there which directly impacts every single academic currently working at a Scottish University.

The Westminster government don't need to accommodate any such requests and I was really hoping the SNP would have outlined a plan B should negotiations not yield an answer or a productive outcome.

As I said, there are a lot of positives outlined in the case but this, for me personally, is the deal-breaker.

There you go... it's things like this that are the reason why I'm only "leaning" towards a Yes at the moment.

I've been banging on about Trident, London Crossrail, even the BBC previously ... all things that we put money into and get less value back, you're post shows that there are a lot of swings and roundabouts involved in all this

[Just Alf]

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Extremely light on detail, EU membership, £, no tax increases, passport if youve live 10 years in Scotland, pensions safeguarded all to be taken as happening because Alex Salmond says so. I doubt today's SNP manifesto will sway many people to vote yes

The biggie for me is the £ question.

on one hand are we really saying that the Rest of UK business really want one of their most important "export" markets to move onto another currency with all the additional cost and complexity that would entail?

on the the other hand how can we say we will use the £ "full stop" "end of" "fact" etc?? (and i know the argument that Scotland owns 8-9% of the B of E but that's not enough of an argument)

[Phil D. Rolls]

If we vote "no", will Scotland's position in the Union be stronger, or weaker? It's like Tam Dayell said, you can't go half way down the road to independence.

[speedy_gonzales]

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I was really hoping the SNP would have outlined a plan B

I might not be directing my ire towards the correct group of people, but this is a bugbear I have with the SNP/Scottish Executive,,,,the lack of a plan B for each and every point it has made in the white paper.

Perhaps a little OTT for me to expect such things, but there is a rather important referendum on the horizon, we rarely get 'absolutes' from politicians but lately it's 'we will do this' and 'we will get that',,,but what if the promises made re EU, currency etc are beyond the powers of an independent Scotland? Where would an elected Scotland be if the £ was not an option, are we better/worse or the same?

Whilst I'm on my soap box, even the abolition of trident from the Clyde has softened from 'it will go' to something like 'it will go as soon as as safely and responsibly achieved',,,,not quite a flip-flop, certainly a flip!

[RyeSloan]

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There you go... it's things like this that are the reason why I'm only "leaning" towards a Yes at the moment. I've been banging on about Trident, London Crossrail, even the BBC previously ... all things that we put money into and get less value back, you're post shows that there are a lot of swings and roundabouts involved in all this

What makes you think we pay for London cross rail? Does a city of 3 million more residents than the whole of Scotland not generate enough economic output to pay for such things?

As for the BBC...sure BBC Scotland does not receive all of the license fee raised in Scotland but the last time I checked I had access to most of BBC's national output whenever I wanted So not sure what your argument is here.

And as for Trident. Well you either believe in nuclear deterrents or you don't but at least you can't complain about any economic benefit from maintaining the base of being felt in Scotland!

[Glory Lurker]

Judging by the time of posts, we've got some very fast readers in the .net fraternity! Must be just be that us simple "yes" people can't read as well as our unionist betters

If I could pick on certain points that I think I know the answer to:-

"Plan B"s. Who ever goes in to a negotiation saying what their plan B is?

Currency - it will be the pound (yes, full stop). Anyone can use whatever currency they like. The important thing is the currency union. Despite all the huffing and puffing, Westminster is not saying no to this, and would be mad to do so. It would run the risk of sterling ceasing to be an oil currency, plus dismember the very common market they are supposedly so keen to preserve. It wouldn't be "pre-negotiating" to say "we will not allow a currency union", it would be clarity. If it is the case that this is a non-starter, why aren't they saying it?

EU Membership - a given. Scotland is already EU territory, with over 5 million EU citizens. Assuming that we do need to get our own new membership, we are uniquely well-placed. We hold most of the EU's oil reserves, a massive share of its fisheries, and a large proportion of its renewables potential. The EU commission will not push Schengen on us as it would cause barriers within what is presently a free-trading area.

Trident - see ya. It's a negotiating tool, though. I can wait a couple years or so post-independence for it to go. At a slight tangent, SiMar talks about economic benefits of Trident. When the cost of the scheme is worked out against the purported economic benefits, does this genuinely work out in our favour? I don't know, my problem with Trident is in principle, but it would be interesting to know if this assertion really had a basis.

[Just Alf]

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What makes you think we pay for London cross rail? Does a city of 3 million more residents than the whole of Scotland not generate enough economic output to pay for such things?

As for the BBC...sure BBC Scotland does not receive all of the license fee raised in Scotland but the last time I checked I had access to most of BBC's national output whenever I wanted So not sure what your argument is here.

And as for Trident. Well you either believe in nuclear deterrents or you don't but at least you can't complain about any economic benefit from maintaining the base of being felt in Scotland!

Cross rail - the finances of this are split. Very roughly, "london" tax payers are paying around 50%, railtrack (or similar, on phone so can't look it up are 20-25% and Westminster Central government are picking up the rest, from memory "our" share of that is around £44-45 million

BBC's last accounts stated they take in just shy of £199 million in licence fees from Scotland and spend just over £180 million in our programming. There's probably more complexity to it if we factor in what the bbc spends to other tv companies to then air here?

On Trident, I used to be for but now I think it's time expired, if we must spend all the money then I'd rather it was on ships, soldiers etc that are more useful day to day (Philippines etc)... I was told (not read it myself so won't hang my hat on the argument!) the Scottish tax payer contributes £3 billion(really???) towards it.... Whatever the truth I can't imagine we benefit by the amount paid in. (Open to discussion on that tho :-) )

[Sylar]

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Judging by the time of posts, we've got some very fast readers in the .net fraternity! Must be just be that us simple "yes" people can't read as well as our unionist betters

If I could pick on certain points that I think I know the answer to:-

"Plan B"s. Who ever goes in to a negotiation saying what their plan B is?

Currency - it will be the pound (yes, full stop). Anyone can use whatever currency they like. The important thing is the currency union. Despite all the huffing and puffing, Westminster is not saying no to this, and would be mad to do so. It would run the risk of sterling ceasing to be an oil currency, plus dismember the very common market they are supposedly so keen to preserve. It wouldn't be "pre-negotiating" to say "we will not allow a currency union", it would be clarity. If it is the case that this is a non-starter, why aren't they saying it?

EU Membership - a given. Scotland is already EU territory, with over 5 million EU citizens. Assuming that we do need to get our own new membership, we are uniquely well-placed. We hold most of the EU's oil reserves, a massive share of its fisheries, and a large proportion of its renewables potential. The EU commission will not push Schengen on us as it would cause barriers within what is presently a free-trading area.

Trident - see ya. It's a negotiating tool, though. I can wait a couple years or so post-independence for it to go. At a slight tangent, SiMar talks about economic benefits of Trident. When the cost of the scheme is worked out against the purported economic benefits, does this genuinely work out in our favour? I don't know, my problem with Trident is in principle, but it would be interesting to know if this assertion really had a basis.

Whilst I hear what you're saying, there's far too much at stake to otherwise expect an entire work sector to vote without a semblance of plan B. The loss of that money destroys the Further Education sector in Scotland and 'we'll see what we can do' is not a valid security position.

I'm still reading it and as I said, there's a lot of good stuff for the case of independence but a lot of it is also very woolly and vague.

[PatHead]

I said on the other thread (PM) that I was undecided. I wish the UK Parliament would go over the benefits of staying in the Union rather than just being negative all the time. At least the Yes camp are coming out with some propaganda.

[monktonharp]

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IMHO the sooner we get the referendum over and done with, the better. I'll admit to being totally scunnered of the nonsense spouted by both sides. It's been a debate short on facts and full of pie-in-the-sky notions of the future.

take a look at the recently published white paper re-Scottish independence then. Salmond's writing, is good. the vote "yes" is not about voting for him, btw. It is all about voting for the kind of society we deserve in this small country.modern Scottish parties will be formed/come back to the fore, and have social values, fairness at the helm, not who can get a quick buck at the demise of others round them. there will be no bedroom tax, that is for sure , whichever new party took the lead. vote with your heart, and be proud to vote with your head too. it's time to rid this country of the notion that we are part of the world powers that the UK once was.

[heretoday]

Am I right in thinking that the Queen will still remain Head of State after Independence?

What's that all about?

[steakbake]

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Am I right in thinking that the Queen will still remain Head of State after Independence?

What's that all about?

I suppose if people want to have a referendum on becoming a republic, it can wait till after we've decided on the independence question?

Most countries in the commonwealth have gone down that route - independence, then deciding whether to remain in the commonwealth. Australia still frequently debate it and I think Jamaica recently has seen a rise in republican sentiment.

[Fergus52]

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Judging by the time of posts, we've got some very fast readers in the .net fraternity! Must be just be that us simple "yes" people can't read as well as our unionist betters

If I could pick on certain points that I think I know the answer to:-

"Plan B"s. Who ever goes in to a negotiation saying what their plan B is?

Currency - it will be the pound (yes, full stop). Anyone can use whatever currency they like. The important thing is the currency union. Despite all the huffing and puffing, Westminster is not saying no to this, and would be mad to do so. It would run the risk of sterling ceasing to be an oil currency, plus dismember the very common market they are supposedly so keen to preserve. It wouldn't be "pre-negotiating" to say "we will not allow a currency union", it would be clarity. If it is the case that this is a non-starter, why aren't they saying it?

EU Membership - a given. Scotland is already EU territory, with over 5 million EU citizens. Assuming that we do need to get our own new membership, we are uniquely well-placed. We hold most of the EU's oil reserves, a massive share of its fisheries, and a large proportion of its renewables potential. The EU commission will not push Schengen on us as it would cause barriers within what is presently a free-trading area.

Trident - see ya. It's a negotiating tool, though. I can wait a couple years or so post-independence for it to go. At a slight tangent, SiMar talks about economic benefits of Trident. When the cost of the scheme is worked out against the purported economic benefits, does this genuinely work out in our favour? I don't know, my problem with Trident is in principle, but it would be interesting to know if this assertion really had a basis.

. If there is a yes vote, no way will westminster block a currency union - they need us.

[Fergus52]

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I said on the other thread (PM) that I was undecided. I wish the UK Parliament would go over the benefits of staying in the Union rather than just being negative all the time. At least the Yes camp are coming out with some propaganda.

Quite a hard thing for them to do.

[MyJo]

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I said on the other thread (PM) that I was undecided. I wish the UK Parliament would go over the benefits of staying in the Union rather than just being negative all the time. At least the Yes camp are coming out with some propaganda.

The arguments against seem to be limited to:

- Its better for everyone to stay as the united kingdom.

Ok then tell us why its better for everyone? or more specifically tell us scots why we are better off staying in the UK because thats what we are basing our decision on or is it that the united kingdom is better for England/Wales & NI and we are supposed to sacrifice our independence and ability to self-govern to benefit everyone else apart from us.

- We wont get membership of the EU.

Why not? Yes, the SNP have been vague on the process and ability to gain EU membership post-independence but the better together campaign has presented nothing other than the assertion of pro-union politicians that it wont happen. Where is the evidence or reasoning behind this stance?

- We wont get to keep the pound.

Ok, get the prime minister to come out and confirm that there will be no possibility of a currency union should scotland become independent. Given that good ol' Dave is pro-union he'd be more than happy to dispel this myth that a common currency would be used or indeed in the best interests of both sides post-independence.

Ironically after many months of complaints from the better together side about the lack of information or clarity on how independence would work the publishing of this white paper has shown up exactly how little they are actually putting into justifying thier stance of no independence beyond sniping at everything said by the SNP

[yeezus.]

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The arguments against seem to be limited to:

- Its better for everyone to stay as the united kingdom.

Ok then tell us why its better for everyone? or more specifically tell us scots why we are better off staying in the UK because thats what we are basing our decision on or is it that the united kingdom is better for England/Wales & NI and we are supposed to sacrifice our independence and ability to self-govern to benefit everyone else apart from us.

- We wont get membership of the EU.

Why not? Yes, the SNP have been vague on the process and ability to gain EU membership post-independence but the better together campaign has presented nothing other than the assertion of pro-union politicians that it wont happen. Where is the evidence or reasoning behind this stance?

- We wont get to keep the pound.

Ok, get the prime minister to come out and confirm that there will be no possibility of a currency union should scotland become independent. Given that good ol' Dave is pro-union he'd be more than happy to dispel this myth that a common currency would be used or indeed in the best interests of both sides post-independence.

Ironically after many months of complaints from the better together side about the lack of information or clarity on how independence would work the publishing of this white paper has shown up exactly how little they are actually putting into justifying thier stance of no independence beyond sniping at everything said by the SNP

An independent Scotland would be considered a new country and therefore have to re-apply for membership of the European Union, that doesn't mean we "wouldn't get membership" at all - it just means that there would be long negotiations. That being said, the rules are laid down in the Lisbon Treaty and it will come down to law, not talks.

[Hibrandenburg]

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An independent Scotland would be considered a new country and therefore have to re-apply for membership of the European Union, that doesn't mean we "wouldn't get membership" at all - it just means that there would be long negotiations. That being said, the rules are laid down in the Lisbon Treaty and it will come down to law, not talks.

Great, that'll make us even more like Norway.

[Peevemor]

For those that are as yet undecided.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm5EBDa42ck

[Beefster]

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For those that are as yet undecided.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm5EBDa42ck

I keep hearing that folk shouldn't make up their mind on the basis of hating Salmond but then keep seeing links to stuff like this. What next? 'Jeremy Kyle does independence'?

[tcm1875]

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I keep hearing that folk shouldn't make up their mind on the basis of hating Salmond but then keep seeing links to stuff like this. What next? 'Jeremy Kyle does independence'?

You keep seeing? Really!! All two links. It was hard to tell the difference between that video and the Rangers one. All were obnoxious, ignorant and uninformed.......

[ballengeich]

My criticism of the SNP's white paper is that it has too much detailed planning. It will turn the referendum into a vote for or against the SNP's policy platform. This allows the unionist parties to focus on criticising details and pointing out possible snags in implementation of these policies, without being expected to put forward any constructive alternative vision.

That's not what the whole thing's about. The referendum isn't about whether you approve of the SNP's policies or even about what sort of society you'd like to see in Scotland in the future. It's about who should be making the decisions about the type of Scotland we want in the coming decades.

In the union Scots are a decreasing minority. Power lies with the south of England, in particular the City of London, and if they want something the opinions of Scots will be overridden. There will be difficulties in independence, but we have to decide whether to confront and work through these or continue as a peripheral and largely disregarded province of an outstandingly centralised state.

[Alex Trager]

Just posted this on the white paper thread so thought I'd do the same here


I've sat back and read this thread for a few days now, taking in what people are saying and what not. I was very much a man that stood for the no vote before I had a look at what it all actually meant. I have simple views that are easy to follow and for me they are the sole reason that I will vote yes. I have trust In our political parties- can't believe I just said that- to sort out the intricacies that follow of we go independent.
For all those undecided here are my reasons for voting yes.


In 14 of the last 18 elections the Scottish vote has counted for nothing. That is my first reason. I'm thinking why would I want to continue this? Is this a fair system to be part of?

Then I learn that we send £500B roughly per year to Westminster. Fair doos. Then it comes back up £450B, I start to think wait the now? That's not quite right.

Anyway I continue to plod along, and learn that on average and to take the last year on record 2011/12 we paid 10700 in tax per head whereas others in the uk 9000. Now I'm really wondering what on earth is going on here.

Then I find out Scotland has run on average net fiscal profit of 0.2% since 1980. Not a lot huh? No. But I hear that the uk has run itself at a 3% deficit. And now I'm really thinking why am I paying for these people to continue to waste money on things I don't even think we should be involved in. Now I want independence


I also had a yes campaigner at my door last night who I had a great discussion with. To refer to my first reason, it came to my attention in one of the leaflets he have me, with regards to the cuts the government are making 11 out of 57 Scottish mps votes in favour of them. Fair enough, so I assume we didn't take part in te cuts?

Wrong: 324 out 592 in Westminster votes yes for them. And guess what we're now undergoing cuts.


I have lots more reasons if anyone wants to know let me know. Anyway these are my fundamental reasons. Good to hear your points of view on them