Hearts bump HWU for training ground rent (merged)

[007 Mickey Weir]

But we do own the complex and land that has value.

[cocopops1875]

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But we do own the complex and land that has value.

Does it ? Apparently can't be used for housing so unless someone is looking for a training center or farm it won't be worth more than we paid for the land, we have then paid x amount to lay pitches, convert buildings and the like

[green day]

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Does it ? Apparently can't be used for housing so unless someone is looking for a training center or farm it won't be worth more than we paid for the land, we have then paid x amount to lay pitches, convert buildings and the like

There is also intangible value in owning your own centre - not sure how old you are, but can you remember when hibs (and most clubs) were training at the jack kane, saughton, sighthill - pretty much wherever was 'available' - its not exactly professional. I know we might say 'we have not had the benefit' but who can say how dire we would be without it !

And on a day like today, whats the training going to be like at spartans / saughton for the jambos once they actually start 'living within their means'? Lets never forget that the £0.4M that they have 'paid' annually for HWU facilities was still money they did not have and couldnt afford - similar to the players they bankrolled, it was all on the never never.

Hibs are unique outside the Old Firm in having these facilities.

[greenginger]

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Does it ? Apparently can't be used for housing so unless someone is looking for a training center or farm it won't be worth more than we paid for the land, we have then paid x amount to lay pitches, convert buildings and the like

I seem to remember something about there being a few acres of extra land at East Mains that is not required for the sports centre.
It was suggested a change to housing use may be possible in future. Remember, its not Edinburgh Council we would have to apply to for planning permission.

[Jack]

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Just out of interest how do you arrive at this conclusion ? We paid whatever to build EM then a running cost of more than hearts pay rent so we are not exactly getting a great deal in comparison

I was just wondering the other day how much it costs us to run EM and was going to ask at the AGM. Do you know?

[cocopops1875]

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There is also intangible value in owning your own centre - not sure how old you are, but can you remember when hibs (and most clubs) were training at the jack kane, saughton, sighthill - pretty much wherever was 'available' - its not exactly professional. I know we might say 'we have not had the benefit' but who can say how dire we would be without it !

And on a day like today, whats the training going to be like at spartans / saughton for the jambos once they actually start 'living within their means'? Lets never forget that the £0.4M that they have 'paid' annually for HWU facilities was still money they did not have and couldnt afford - similar to the players they bankrolled, it was all on the never never.

Hibs are unique outside the Old Firm in having these facilities.

On my phone so will take your points one at a time.
I'm not an east mains basher ( if you look through my previous posts on the subject you will see I'm a huge supporter of us having it ) I was only taking exception to the suggestion that having spent £5 million we were not in essence wasting 400k per year like hearts, we are however still spending that and a wee bit more per year on our 5mil "investment". Urban myths and Hibs.net say it enough and it becomes FACT

[cocopops1875]

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I seem to remember something about there being a few acres of extra land at East Mains that is not required for the sports centre.
It was suggested a change to housing use may be possible in future. Remember, its not Edinburgh Council we would have to apply to for planning permission.

Have you had many dealings with East Lothian Council ? 😃 But yes I have heard this also and if that's the case then great and another fine bit of business by rod

[Kaiser1962]

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I may well be wrong, but were Hearts not meant to joint builders and owners of the facility, but they eventually couldn't afford to do that. The rent is in lieu of their share of the development

Dont have the exact figures to hand but the short answer is yes. Under Robinson Hearts agreed to meet part of the costs of development of the facility (around £2m from memory) but did not pay when due as they were broke. HW eventually picked up the shortfall with the rest coming from government agencies (I recall Scottish Council for Sport who used lottery money) Hearts renegotiated and ended up with a long term agreement to use the centre but, as we know, they have rogered them for that as well.

For HW to be bumped once by Hearts is unfortunate and twice is really quite careless, are they going to give them the opportunity for a third?

[cocopops1875]

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I was just wondering the other day how much it costs us to run EM and was going to ask at the AGM. Do you know?

There were all sorts of figures getting banded about 250k to 1million but someone posted a quote from an AGM or the like a while back at £500k now that will have been trimmed to the bare bones in the last 18months like everything at Hibs to give the manager a budget so could be a good bit lower now

[green day]

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On my phone so will take your points one at a time.
I'm not an east mains basher ( if you look through my previous posts on the subject you will see I'm a huge supporter of us having it ) I was only taking exception to the suggestion that having spent £5 million we were not in essence wasting 400k per year like hearts, we are however still spending that and a wee bit more per year on our 5mil "investment". Urban myths and Hibs.net say it enough and it becomes FACT

I actually dont know what it costs us, but even if the costs are similar to HWU its like asking if you would rather pay £600 month flat rent or £600 on mortgage for your flat - its a no brainer in that world and a no brainer in the training centre one too in my opinion.

[Spike Mandela]

I see Robbo was giving it the old administration mantra of "something is better than nothing" In other words it's better for HWU to have Hearts in using their facilities for a pittance than nobody at all.

Clearly this is a negotiating position from Hearts/BDO to hold HWU to ransom but surely the fact that the National Performance for sport centre is to be built there would suggest they aren't dependant on Hearts being there at any price.

Hearts just seem to think they have a god given right for things even though they don't pay for them.

[Caversham Green]

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Dont have the exact figures to hand but the short answer is yes. Under Robinson Hearts agreed to meet part of the costs of development of the facility (around £2m from memory) but did not pay when due as they were broke. HW eventually picked up the shortfall with the rest coming from government agencies (I recall Scottish Council for Sport who used lottery money) Hearts renegotiated and ended up with a long term agreement to use the centre but, as we know, they have rogered them for that as well.

For HW to be bumped once by Hearts is unfortunate and twice is really quite careless, are they going to give them the opportunity for a third?

HoMFC have an asset called 'Leasehold property' in their balance sheet at an original cost of £2.5m. That suggests that they did actually pay a lease premium of that amount at the outset. Their problem is that they can't sell it and they would have nothing at the end of the lease term. As green day says, it's the difference between rent and a mortgage.

[cocopops1875]

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I actually dont know what it costs us, but even if the costs are similar to HWU its like asking if you would rather pay £600 month flat rent or £600 on mortgage for your flat - its a no brainer in that world and a no brainer in the training centre one too in my opinion.

I Don't really think its the same thing as its not 500k rent v 500k mortgage as we have already bought the house outright, lets not kid ourselves that east mains is massively better than HWU pound for pound.
The difference is we have unlimited unrestricted use of ours so all our teams train there.
As I said earlier I'm pro east mains

[Billy Whizz]

If the Hearts under 10's to 18's were to train somewhere else, the cost would be huge. Also wondering where they would get all these block bookings in the Edinburgh area

[StevieC]

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I see Robbo was giving it the old administration mantra of "something is better than nothing" In other words it's better for HWU to have Hearts in using their facilities for a pittance than nobody at all.

I would guess that the National Performance Centre will be attracting a fair bit of new business for the facilities, so I doubt it will be "nobody at all". It might actually suit HWU to have Hearts cancel their agreement so they can negotiate better rates (either with NewYamCo or another sporting organisation) for use of the improved facilities.

[cocopops1875]

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If the Hearts under 10's to 18's were to train somewhere else, the cost would be huge. Also wondering where they would get all these block bookings in the Edinburgh area

I assume they don't train at HWU just now though Billy ?

[Onion]

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I see Robbo was giving it the old administration mantra of "something is better than nothing" In other words it's better for HWU to have Hearts in using their facilities for a pittance than nobody at all.

Clearly this is a negotiating position from Hearts/BDO to hold HWU to ransom but surely the fact that the National Performance for sport centre is to be built there would suggest they aren't dependant on Hearts being there at any price.

Hearts just seem to think they have a god given right for things even though they don't pay for them.

We'd all be speaking German if it wasn't for Hearts. Forever in their debt

[Billy Whizz]

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I assume they don't train at HWU just now though Billy ?

Yes they do, practically every night of the week. I play on a Wednesday and they were there last week

[Kaiser1962]

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HoMFC have an asset called 'Leasehold property' in their balance sheet at an original cost of £2.5m. That suggests that they did actually pay a lease premium of that amount at the outset. Their problem is that they can't sell it and they would have nothing at the end of the lease term. As green day says, it's the difference between rent and a mortgage.

I am trying to find the information I had about this and that at the Robinson/Vlad negotiations they withdrew from the initial agreement and instead went to a 25 year lease. I could be wrong.

[steviehibsleith]

I think HWU have won the bid for sporting excellence and now can bump the yams or at least play hardball with rent. The government are funding it for astart to allready huge investment and cashflow. HWU suddenly becomes one of the best sporting degree Unis and profile is raised so they win. The 11aside indoor facility will be a massive draw for all football and rug y clubs to use during our winter months. Basically HWU are better off without the delude non paying bottom of the league roasters

[StevieC]

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I am trying to find the information I had about this and that at the Robinson/Vlad negotiations they withdrew from the initial agreement and instead went to a 25 year lease. I could be wrong.

That was my understanding of it.

Initially it was meant to be shared costs for the building of the facilities but Hearts pulled out of this (skint?) and negotiated a long term lease instead.

[cocopops1875]

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Yes they do, practically every night of the week. I play on a Wednesday and they were there last week

They actually get a not bad deal all in then (I work at HWU as a contractor) I see the 1st team and u20s training there but always assumed the young uns had other arrangements as the Uni must have a need for the facilities.
As I said earlier I'm all for us having our own place and having been out there to play and also did the tour when it opened can say its first class, just saying even if they were paying what they are due we are paying the same for not massively different facilities, In fact the indoor area they have use of is a huge step up from what we have. They have offices, their own changing and roughly 8 pitches one of which is all weather, great gym and other social sports like squash. Dunno what they do for eating and laundry which we have on site but my point is pound for pound they have a not bad deal (if they were actually paying for it)

[Billy Whizz]

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They actually get a not bad deal all in then (I work at HWU as a contractor) I see the 1st team and u20s training there but always assumed the young uns had other arrangements as the Uni must have a need for the facilities.
As I said earlier I'm all for us having our own place and having been out there to play and also did the tour when it opened can say its first class, just saying even if they were paying what they are due we are paying the same for not massively different facilities, In fact the indoor area they have use of is a huge step up from what we have. They have offices, their own changing and roughly 8 pitches one of which is all weather, great gym and other social sports like squash. Dunno what they do for eating and laundry which we have on site but my point is pound for pound they have a not bad deal (if they were actually paying for it)

They are on 6pm to 8pm

[Hibrandenburg]

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We'd all be speaking German if it wasn't for Hearts. Forever in their debt

Hate to bring this up but we are. English is a Germanic language.

[Ozyhibby]

If Hearts were to be kicked out of HW, what would people think of Hibs taking up the tennancy?
While East Mains is a terrific Facility, HW is about to become one of the best in Europe. It also has far better transport links which is important for youth players.
I spoke to a coach from Bathgate last week who was telling me he has two kids who Hibs are trying to sign but logistically the parents just can't get them to Trannent for training during the week. The boys are still not attached to another club so hopefully something can be sorted.
What to do with East Mains? Maybe rent it to a local Newco club making it's way up the divisions? Sell for housing?

[green day]

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If Hearts were to be kicked out of HW, what would people think of Hibs taking up the tennancy?
While East Mains is a terrific Facility, HW is about to become one of the best in Europe. It also has far better transport links which is important for youth players.
I spoke to a coach from Bathgate last week who was telling me he has two kids who Hibs are trying to sign but logistically the parents just can't get them to Trannent for training during the week. The boys are still not attached to another club so hopefully something can be sorted.
What to do with East Mains? Maybe rent it to a local Newco club making it's way up the divisions? Sell for housing?

M8,bypass,A1 ?

What would they do if the kids were training with Dundee utd??

[cocopops1875]

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M8,bypass,A1 ?

What would they do if the kids were training with Dundee utd??

Maybe they wouldn't take them to Dundee ?

[Ozyhibby]

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M8,bypass,A1 ?

What would they do if the kids were training with Dundee utd??

I think the kids are only 8 or 9.
Dundee utd would probably be out as well. I'm not saying it would solve all problems, just make some a bit easier. There a far more talented kids to the west of the city than to the east.

[green day]

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I think the kids are only 8 or 9.
Dundee utd would probably be out as well. I'm not saying it would solve all problems, just make some a bit easier. There a far more talented kids to the west of the city than to the east.

I was assuming the parents would drive!

Take your point though, the population centres in Scotland are not in E Lothian. I don't know, but imagine that they run satelite sessions in areas other than E Mains? If not, then I agree we are cutting ourselves off from a lot of potential.

I seem to remember that the Hun's used to have mini centres in most cities for this reason - I.e. kids couldn't be expected to travel through to Mordor for sessions.

[Deansy]

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I may well be wrong, but were Hearts not meant to joint builders and owners of the facility, but they eventually couldn't afford to do that. The rent is in lieu of their share of the development

Yup - Hearts bumped them when construction was at an advanced stage so HWU were forced to shoulder the extra financial costs. Iirc, their '25-year Lease' was negotiated as a form of compensation for it.