Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

[cabbageandribs1875]

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Is there any point in small businesses going through the Small Claims Court now? These are the guys who were fobbed off by Southern for months and months and didn't have the gumption to do anything about it before Admin hit.



From here.....

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/s.../EDI130724.htm

they pinkoids have been in court more times than judge judy....utter embarrassment of a 'football' club

[jgl07]

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Maybe Cropleywas Green can answer that one....

The point of an audit report is to allow potential users to draw conclusion from the accounts as presented, so the previous years, where they said that it all depended on the continuing support of UBIG but they couldn't verify that UBIG were capable of providing that support, were ok - you can draw your own conclusions from that. The last audit report said that HoMFC were a going concern as long as they raised enough from player sales and an undefined membership scheme. What it failed to do was quantify the amounts that needed to be raised, so any potential user could not really draw any meaningful conclusion from it - remember that 'potential users' include suppliers deciding whether or not to offer credit terms.

A potential creditor had no way of knowing from the audit report whether the membership scheme needed to raise twenty quid or a million, and likewise whether £20k or £20m would be enough from player sales. It transpired that the two schemes needed to raise £2.5m which anyone who knows anything about Scottish football will know is ludicrous. My view is that the audit report was inadequate to the point of negligence and any creditor who might have depended on the audit report would have a case against the auditors.

In practice there are unlikely to be many such creditors, but the fact that HoMFC went bust a couple of months after publishing an unqualified audit report is a huge embarrassment. The accountancy profession has (or used to have) a robust disciplinary process and I suspect HoMFC's auditors will have more than a few questions to answer. Sadly, we're unlikely to know the outcome of any disciplinary hearing in this case.

So they were either incompetent or corrupt?

Or both?

[Caversham Green]

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So they were either incompetent or corrupt?

Or both?

That would be for a court to decide. My view is that they got it very wrong.

[greenginger]

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That would be for a court to decide. My view is that they got it very wrong.

Got it very wrong for £ 140 K fee

[Caversham Green]

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Got it very wrong for £ 140 K fee

Yep, and the two points may not be entirely unconnected.

[Dunderhall]

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Maybe Cropleywas Green can answer that one....

The point of an audit report is to allow potential users to draw conclusion from the accounts as presented, so the previous years, where they said that it all depended on the continuing support of UBIG but they couldn't verify that UBIG were capable of providing that support, were ok - you can draw your own conclusions from that. The last audit report said that HoMFC were a going concern as long as they raised enough from player sales and an undefined membership scheme. What it failed to do was quantify the amounts that needed to be raised, so any potential user could not really draw any meaningful conclusion from it - remember that 'potential users' include suppliers deciding whether or not to offer credit terms.

A potential creditor had no way of knowing from the audit report whether the membership scheme needed to raise twenty quid or a million, and likewise whether £20k or £20m would be enough from player sales. It transpired that the two schemes needed to raise £2.5m which anyone who knows anything about Scottish football will know is ludicrous. My view is that the audit report was inadequate to the point of negligence and any creditor who might have depended on the audit report would have a case against the auditors.

In practice there are unlikely to be many such creditors, but the fact that HoMFC went bust a couple of months after publishing an unqualified audit report is a huge embarrassment. The accountancy profession has (or used to have) a robust disciplinary process and I suspect HoMFC's auditors will have more than a few questions to answer. Sadly, we're unlikely to know the outcome of any disciplinary hearing in this case.

I don't disagree with anything really, but they were in any way competent in their job, I'd be surprised if they left themselves open to legal action from a creditor.

Playing Devil's advocate for a minute, you could argue the FoH figure of £1M+ a year plus the fundraising recently could amount to £2M for next year excluding any transfers that may have happened outwith admin.

Im not defending them in any way and would agree it was a sham, just my opinion on the likelihood of a) creditors taking action and b) being successful.

How the profession deals with them is a separate issue.

I'm not speaking with any particular industry knowledge, would you expect creditors to start action against them with a good chance of winning? Quite happy to bow to those ITK.

[nonshinyfinish]

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Yep, and the two points may not be entirely unconnected.

What happens if auditors say they can't sign off accounts? Do they still get a fee?

[jgl07]

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Yep, and the two points may not be entirely unconnected.

No further questions my lord!

[Caversham Green]

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I don't disagree with anything really, but they were in any way competent in their job, I'd be surprised if they left themselves open to legal action from a creditor.

Playing Devil's advocate for a minute, you could argue the FoH figure of £1M+ a year plus the fundraising recently could amount to £2M for next year excluding any transfers that may have happened outwith admin.

Im not defending them in any way and would agree it was a sham, just my opinion on the likelihood of a) creditors taking action and b) being successful.

How the profession deals with them is a separate issue.

I'm not speaking with any particular industry knowledge, would you expect creditors to start action against them with a good chance of winning? Quite happy to bow to those ITK.

Certainly, a large part of any audit file consists of the auditor covering his own arse, and as you say the likelihood of any creditor taking action is remote. However, the FoH scheme depended on a change of regime, and that isn't mentioned as part of the projection, and I would take a lot of convincing that HoMFC could sell players for the amount projected and still have a viable squad at the other end.

From my own point of view I just can't see how they could have come to the conclusion that the report they gave was adequate - and that's borne out by subsequent events. I wouldn't like to be part of that audit team at the moment.

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What happens if auditors say they can't sign off accounts? Do they still get a fee?

In theory, yes, in practice it rarely happens - the auditors would give a qualified report and be paid.

Once in my long career I had a situation where the company I was auditing depended on support from their US parent and when I saw the parent's account they were effectively insolvent, which meant the audit report in theory had to carry a qualification that said the company was not a going concern. In practice, for ethical reasons we stopped all work as soon as this became clear and both parent and subsidiary eventually closed down. We never got paid for the work we did.

[clerriehibs]

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Certainly, a large part of any audit file consists of the auditor covering his own arse, and as you say the likelihood of any creditor taking action is remote. However, the FoH scheme depended on a change of regime, and that isn't mentioned as part of the projection, and I would take a lot of convincing that HoMFC could sell players for the amount projected and still have a viable squad at the other end.

From my own point of view I just can't see how they could have come to the conclusion that the report they gave was adequate - and that's borne out by subsequent events. I wouldn't like to be part of that audit team at the moment.

They created income for their co. though. So who's going to ask the difficult questions of the team, then? Not their bosses (if indeed the £140k facilitated the signing off of the accounts), not homfc, I can't see why BDO would, and it seems unlikely that any creditors will now.

[greenginger]

I've got a sneaking suspicion their Auditors will feature on the creditors list.

[jgl07]

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I've got a sneaking suspicion their Auditors will feature on the creditors list.

I really hope so.

But in the best Yam traditions, they could always sue themselves!

[Caversham Green]

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They created income for their co. though. So who's going to ask the difficult questions of the team, then? Not their bosses (if indeed the £140k facilitated the signing off of the accounts), not homfc, I can't see why BDO would, and it seems unlikely that any creditors will now.

There's a supervisory body set up by the accountancy institutions and associations - it used to be called the Joint Monitoring Unit (JMU), but I suspect it has another name now - I've been out of the game for a few years. Their job is broadly quality control and they will undoubtedly look at the audit of HoMFC. They will report any criminal activity to the SFO and they can effectively end the career of a member who has fallen below the required standards. For lesser offences they can fine or suspend members as they consider appropriate.

I always thought the billiard balls in a sock treatment was their most effective punishment though.

[clerriehibs]

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There's a supervisory body set up by the accountancy institutions and associations - it used to be called the Joint Monitoring Unit (JMU), but I suspect it has another name now - I've been out of the game for a few years. Their job is broadly quality control and they will undoubtedly look at the audit of HoMFC. They will report any criminal activity to the SFO and they can effectively end the career of a member who has fallen below the required standards. For lesser offences they can fine or suspend members as they consider appropriate.

I always thought the billiard balls in a sock treatment was their most effective punishment though.

The homfc audit is unlikely to be on their radar though unless someone has raised it as an issue; I can't see who would raise it as an issue now.

[Just Alf]

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The homfc audit is unlikely to be on their radar though unless someone has raised it as an issue; I can't see who would raise it as an issue now.

Alf thinks that our very own Sydney is VERY likely to have a letter already drafted and ready to go.

[The Green Goblin]

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I always thought the billiard balls in a sock treatment was their most effective punishment though.

As long as they return the sock to whatever plukey first team player they borrowed it from afterwards, it shouldn't be a problem, and they'll all have a proper pair of socks to wear when HMFC kick off their next game in the Meadows or wherever...

[Caversham Green]

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The homfc audit is unlikely to be on their radar though unless someone has raised it as an issue; I can't see who would raise it as an issue now.

I don't know how it works currently, but they used to visit my firm every year and pick files at random to inspect paying particular attention to public interest clients. HoMFC's accounts being late every year will already have been on their radar and them going bust a few weeks after the audit report was signed off will undoubtedly have got their attention, it doesn't need any sort of complaint from anyone. I'd be very surprised if they didn't look at the file.

[sidneyhibbie]

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I don't know how it works currently, but they used to visit my firm every year and pick files at random to inspect paying particular attention to public interest clients. HoMFC's accounts being late every year will already have been on their radar and them going bust a few weeks after the audit report was signed off will undoubtedly have got their attention, it doesn't need any sort of complaint from anyone. I'd be very surprised if they didn't look at the file.

A Very good point raised a little nudge in the right direction is required a Letter will be posted today the presure must be kept up till the ballon bursts.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I don't know how it works currently, but they used to visit my firm every year and pick files at random to inspect paying particular attention to public interest clients. HoMFC's accounts being late every year will already have been on their radar and them going bust a few weeks after the audit report was signed off will undoubtedly have got their attention, it doesn't need any sort of complaint from anyone. I'd be very surprised if they didn't look at the file.

It is still the JMU, Cav. And the results of disciplinary proceedings are published. There was one only this week.

[The Green Goblin]

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A Very good point raised a little nudge in the right direction is required a Letter will be posted today the presure must be kept up till the ballon bursts.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

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A Very good point raised a little nudge in the right direction is required a Letter will be posted today the presure must be kept up till the ballon bursts.

Your dedication to calligraphy is to be admired Sidney.

[brog]

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A Very good point raised a little nudge in the right direction is required a Letter will be posted today the presure must be kept up till the ballon bursts.

Sidney is now brog's fav poster - - fact!

[Phil D. Rolls]

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A Very good point raised a little nudge in the right direction is required a Letter will be posted today the presure must be kept up till the ballon bursts.

Filled Rolls wonder if the Ballon Bursts is a 1960s French film, with Jacques Tati or maybe Johnny Halliday in it.

[SloopJB]

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Your dedication to calligraphy is to be admired Sidney.

In time there will be enough letters to form a word.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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In time there will be enough letters to form a word.

If Sidney keeps writing letters at this rate the Royal Mail privatisation might go well.

[clerriehibs]

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A Very good point raised a little nudge in the right direction is required a Letter will be posted today the presure must be kept up till the ballon bursts.

Sidney, if you're maintaining a wish list;

A freedom of info request to the council asking how much council tax is due.
A FoI to the council asking when the wongadome is due its next inspection.
A FoI to the council asking if there were any caveats/endorsements on the last safety certificate.
A FoI to the police asking how much is due by the laughably self proclaimed 'big' team and whether any policing will be carried out at future tynecastle games without a guarantee of payment.

Keep up the very good work!

[Treadstone]

I can see it in a couple of years time after a high profile criminal fraud case. The chief constable and procurator fiscal standing outside the high court "we are pleased to have secured the lengthy custodial sentences meted out and thank the member of the public who alerted us by way of written correspondence..."

Gaun yersel Sidney.

[Dashing Bob S]

Big week ahead for BDO, Los Yambolinos and, the footballing bodies in Scotland. As Phil Oakey of the Human League memorably sang: 'decisions to made, whey-hey-hey-hey...'

[O'Rourke3]

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Filled Rolls wonder if the Ballon Bursts is a 1960s French film, with Jacques Tati or maybe Johnny Halliday in it.

[sidneyhibbie]

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Sidney, if you're maintaining a wish list;

A freedom of info request to the council asking how much council tax is due.
A FoI to the council asking when the wongadome is due its next inspection.
A FoI to the council asking if there were any caveats/endorsements on the last safety certificate.
A FoI to the police asking how much is due by the laughably self proclaimed 'big' team and whether any policing will be carried out at future tynecastle games without a guarantee of payment.

Keep up the very good work!

Ill get the pen and paper out again after my Tea some good ideas you mention.