Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

[Caversham Green]

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Lets face it, they'll worm out of this and the hundreds of pages of banter will start to look a tad silly (albeit fun).

They're still in deep deep doo doo. They might survive this WUP, but they still have to find players' wages, running costs, other tax dues etc and they're still potless. This fund-raising exercise must have nearly exhausted any value they can extract from the fans and this consortium strikes me as lightweight (they've been in talks for two years and got absolutely nowhere).

There's plenty mileage in this thing yet.

[clerriehibs]

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Edinburgh Risk Management, Oh deary me ! I've insured a couple of development projects with them in the past. They were Ok at what they did but defiately small fry.
I have pulled down a copy of their latest accounts from Companies House and see it is a small cap company,shareholders funds - £203,132.00, The company is owned by a holding company which owns 100% of the shares in Edin. Risk and owned by a J M J Barry.
I
The great saviour, Mr Mackie is just an employee of a tiny little insurance brokers. If he drives a Rover it will be second - hand.

that's a peter pan outfit if ever i saw one!

[jacomo]

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Anyone else find it weird that they refer to themselves in the third person?

This has been picked up before, with Fedotovas referring to Hearts as "they" not "we". Looks like the Lithuanian gang are cutting their ties...

Also, I was interested that Fedotovas has been away twice in the past week - and apparently was not in Edinburgh when the panicked statement about the winding up order was released. You'd have thought he'd be at Tynecastle early until late at the moment trying to keep the plates spinning??

[JeMeSouviens]

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This has been picked up before, with Fedotovas referring to Hearts as "they" not "we". Looks like the Lithuanian gang are cutting their ties...

Also, I was interested that Fedotovas has been away twice in the past week - and apparently was not in Edinburgh when the panicked statement about the winding up order was released. You'd have thought he'd be at Tynecastle early until late at the moment trying to keep the plates spinning??

Fedotovas is on the board at UBIG and an advisor to the board of UKIO. I imagine he is multinationally plate spinning even as we speak.

[jacomo]

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Edinburgh Risk Management, Oh deary me ! I've insured a couple of development projects with them in the past. They were Ok at what they did but defiately small fry.
I have pulled down a copy of their latest accounts from Companies House and see it is a small cap company,shareholders funds - £203,132.00, The company is owned by a holding company which owns 100% of the shares in Edin. Risk and owned by a J M J Barry.

The great saviour, Mr Mackie is just an employee of a tiny little insurance brokers. If he drives a Rover it will be second - hand.

Seriously, what is with Scottish journalists? Have they forgotten how to do any research?

"Hullo, Scotsman sports desk. A new consortium is trying to buy Hearts? Mr Mackie is a big supporter you say? With significant resources? Aye ok, I'll just write that up word for word and submit it. And there was me worrying about how I was going to find 800 words for the website today. Cheers for now!"

[jacomo]

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Fedotovas is on the board at UBIG and an advisor to the board of UKIO. I imagine he is multinationally plate spinning even as we speak.

Indeed. Our man knows more than he lets on.

[Hibees07]

Moira Gordon (live chat, Scotsman) said that so far Hearts had raised about £250K, only 2 days to raise another £200K.

They better get their ovens on & face paints out.

[JeMeSouviens]

Possible yam scenarios - the Gretna example:

Gretna's owner Brooks Mileson withdrew financial support in the 07/08 season. They failed to pay wages in Feb and HMRC issued a WUP which forced them into administration in March. 23 players were made redundant including 9 first team squad members and the SPL kept them afloat with emergency advances of season end prize money until May. They failed to find a buyer by the administrator's May deadline and the club was liquidated.

Quite like the sound of that.

[WindyMiller]

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Edinburgh Risk Management, Oh deary me ! I've insured a couple of development projects with them in the past. They were Ok at what they did but defiately small fry.
I have pulled down a copy of their latest accounts from Companies House and see it is a small cap company,shareholders funds - £203,132.00, The company is owned by a holding company which owns 100% of the shares in Edin. Risk and owned by a J M J Barry.

The great saviour, Mr Mackie is just an employee of a tiny little insurance brokers. If he drives a Rover it will be second - hand.

Have you got the spelling right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._M._Barrie

[green glory]

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Moira Gordon (live chat, Scotsman) said that so far Hearts had raised about £250K, only 2 days to raise another £200K.

They better get their ovens on & face paints out.

**** they'd better draft in Ian Black and get around the doors in Gorgie painting everyone's kids coupon. Use a roller Blackie, time's running out.

[jgl07]

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Have you got the spelling right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._M._Barrie

His book did feature a crocodile called 'Tick Tock'!

[JeMeSouviens]

FFS Hibs.

http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/2...241384_2979343

Allowing them to sell tickets for the cup game starting tonight. Bugger.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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FFS Hibs.

http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/2...241384_2979343

Allowing them to sell tickets for the cup game starting tonight. Bugger.

The alternative was to refuse them and then have them leak that information to a friendly journalist, painting Hibs in an awful light ("denying cash-starved Hearts much-needed revenue", blah blah blah).

[1875er]

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Moira Gordon (live chat, Scotsman) said that so far Hearts had raised about £250K, only 2 days to raise another £200K.

They better get their ovens on & face paints out.

[PatHead]

Posted this in pm site

My head says they will be wound up as

1 The outlook for them is so weak, raised the majority of any money they can expect by end of December with little more coming until January by which time HMRC debts will be higher than they are now
2 Their history of non payment
3 They have not managed to raise the money due now despite begging their fan base for help. (Can't believe the St Mirren game is not sold out by now. These supporters really don't deserve a club). If they couldn't do it now then they never will.
4 HMRC don't have a history of cutting slack and allowing debts to build up again, next instalment of NI/PAYE must be about due
5 HMRC can see the man behind them is not willing/able to help so why should they
6 The outcry (politically) if they did let them off after Rangers last year
7 The lack of transparency shown by the club
8 HMRC believe they are due at least another £1.75m which they shall never see and would wind them up then
9 HMRC couldn't care if Hearts are a football club, a market stall or a Sauna. Emotion won't come into it, purely a very weak business case put up by Hearts.

My heart says I would like them to scrape through until 3 January and just as they think they have got away with it, padlocks appear on the gates the day before the game.

Anyone care to tell me an alternative.

[blindsummit]

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FFS Hibs.

http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/2...241384_2979343

Allowing them to sell tickets for the cup game starting tonight. Bugger.

So there has to be a level of risk here to Hibs. For instance if the game doesn't go ahead after all as they get wound up, are Hibs left losing money? What are the risks to us here?

[brog]

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How much of the PAYE bill did oldco/newco/Rangers pay?

Rangers were reported as owing £18mm in VAT & PAYE contributions at time of their demise. That's money they collected & didn't pass on to HMRC. If a lottery or pools collector did the same thing they'd be charged with theft. My original point re Yams which I didn't make clear was that if they were always behind with VAT/PAYE payments then why on earth would they have paid interest charges? I suspect interest charges form part of the current outstanding bill & I believe HMRC's overdue hardball attitude to Yams was influenced by the magnitude of Oldco's debt.

[hibs0666]

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Moira Gordon (live chat, Scotsman) said that so far Hearts had raised about £250K, only 2 days to raise another £200K.

They better get their ovens on & face paints out.

Their only hope now is arrses for rent.

[LancashireHibby]

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So there has to be a level of risk here to Hibs. For instance if the game doesn't go ahead after all as they get wound up, are Hibs left losing money? What are the risks to us here?

We'd be left as a football creditor, though it will be interesting to see how much of a role the SFA have played in this as well given it's a split gate etc.

[PatHead]

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So there has to be a level of risk here to Hibs. For instance if the game doesn't go ahead after all as they get wound up, are Hibs left losing money? What are the risks to us here?

None. As it is a cup tie Hearts are entitled to a share of the gate receipts anyway. We will just deduct it from their share if the game goes ahead.

[hibs0666]

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So there has to be a level of risk here to Hibs. For instance if the game doesn't go ahead after all as they get wound up, are Hibs left losing money? What are the risks to us here?

Don't think so seeing as it's a split gate.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Rangers were reported as owing £18mm in VAT & PAYE contributions at time of their demise. That's money they collected & didn't pass on to HMRC. If a lottery or pools collector did the same thing they'd be charged with theft. My original point re Yams which I didn't make clear was that if they were always behind with VAT/PAYE payments then why on earth would they have paid interest charges? I suspect interest charges form part of the current outstanding bill & I believe HMRC's overdue hardball attitude to Yams was influenced by the magnitude of Oldco's debt.

They are different scenarios.

In the Rangers case, HMRC knew that they were always going to get Xp in the £. Winding Up Applications are always the last resort by HMRC, and any one of those would have resulted in the same thing ie administration. And that is exactly what happened.

In Hearts case, this is the latest in a number of WUA. HMRC have always got their cash thus far. They also know that, the first time a WUA is granted, that's it and there will be no cash for them.

I can't see that HMRC could have played things differently in either case.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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We'd be left as a football creditor, though it will be interesting to see how much of a role the SFA have played in this as well given it's a split gate etc.

Hibs would only be a creditor if the game was played. If they sell tickets and then don't play then the money would be owed to the ticket holder, because he/she wouldn't have got what they paid for (a Scottish Cup match between Hibs and Hearts). Same would also be true if Hibs sold tickets for the home sections and the match didn't happen. Only difference would be that the Hibs fan would have much better chance of getting their money back or something else in return.

[HibeeMG]

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So there has to be a level of risk here to Hibs. For instance if the game doesn't go ahead after all as they get wound up, are Hibs left losing money? What are the risks to us here?

If the game doesn't go ahead Hibs lose nothing. It'll be up to Hearts to refund the fans who have bought tickets from them. Good luck with that!

The risk to Hibs is if the game does go ahead. We will be due our very large percentage of their ticket sales. I'm not even 10% confident that we'll see that. Given the undoubted damage that will be done to seats etc. we will be out of pocket.

[LancashireHibby]

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Hibs would only be a creditor if the game was played. If they sell tickets and then don't play then the money would be owed to the ticket holder, because he/she wouldn't have got what they paid for (a Scottish Cup match between Hibs and Hearts). Same would also be true if Hibs sold tickets for the home sections and the match didn't happen. Only difference would be that the Hibs fan would have much better chance of getting their money back or something else in return.

Fair point. Although if they go bump then presumably they wouldn't actually be employing anybody to administer the refunds?!

[Part/Time Supporter]

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If the game doesn't go ahead Hibs lose nothing. It'll be up to Hearts to refund the fans who have bought tickets from them. Good luck with that!

The risk to Hibs is if the game does go ahead. We will be due our very large percentage of their ticket sales. I'm not even 10% confident that we'll see that. Given the undoubted damage that will be done to seats etc. we will be out of pocket.

That would be easily outweighed by the cash from Sky.

[JeMeSouviens]

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The alternative was to refuse them and then have them leak that information to a friendly journalist, painting Hibs in an awful light ("denying cash-starved Hearts much-needed revenue", blah blah blah).

.... and?

[LancashireHibby]

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The risk to Hibs is if the game does go ahead. We will be due our very large percentage of their ticket sales. I'm not even 10% confident that we'll see that. Given the undoubted damage that will be done to seats etc. we will be out of pocket.

I'd have thought in basic terms that, assuming a rough 40-40 split after costs are considered, Hertz would effectively need to provide 40% of the crowd before we are out of pocket? I know that sounds a little too simple but given we'd have by far the majority of ticket sales, we'd also control the majority of the cash involved?

[matty_f]

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FFS Hibs.

http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/2...241384_2979343

Allowing them to sell tickets for the cup game starting tonight. Bugger.

Saved by the Hibees, oh you were saved by the Hibees...

[HibeeMG]

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That would be easily outweighed by the cash from Sky.

That's as may be but we should have the SKY money and the ticket money. If Hearts withhold that because they've included it in a cheque to HMRC then we're out of pocket.

The easiest way to sort it all out would have been to sell the Hearts end tickets ourselves, again.