Share Transfers Agreed/Cooling off period

[The_Sauz]

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Rangers are likely to lose their league titles but I'm not sure whether they are getting chased for their cups? It may be that the cup competitions have different registration rules and that dual-contracts may not have ruled certain players out of the cup competitions.

I'm sure I read it was just the League Cup that they would not loose, but could loose League & Scottish Cup titles
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...t-plan-1167046

[Part/Time Supporter]

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Does anyone know if Rangers are likely to be stripped of cup wins? Or if that is something that would be pursued along with titles?

I would honestly laugh and probably never stop if Hearts were stripped of last seasons. Can you imagine it? A match that they can basically rip the you know what out of us for the rest of our lives. If that was suddenly taken away due to them being cheating tax dodging ****bags.

It would never take the hurt away that I felt on the day, but I would certainly feel a lot better and would raise a wee glass to justice being done.

I can't see how they would be stripped of 2012, even if there was a discrepancy, because I don't think they had any players on loan from Kaunas last season. 2006 would be in trouble though.

[StevieC]

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I would honestly laugh and probably never stop if Hearts were stripped of last seasons.

The HMRC have been putting this case together for a couple of years now, I doubt even Hearts would be stupid enough to continue paying wages from Lithuania after the HMRC had started their investigation.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Does anyone know if Rangers are likely to be stripped of cup wins? Or if that is something that would be pursued along with titles?

I would honestly laugh and probably never stop if Hearts were stripped of last seasons. Can you imagine it? A match that they can basically rip the you know what out of us for the rest of our lives. If that was suddenly taken away due to them being cheating tax dodging ****bags.

It would never take the hurt away that I felt on the day, but I would certainly feel a lot better and would raise a wee glass to justice being done.

Sorry to pour cold water on any of this, but thus far Hearts haven't been accused of anything that would warrant stripping them of anything. There is no suggestion (yet) of double-contracts or the like. "All" they are accused of is not complying with tax law. I don't think there is any precedent anywhere (including Rangers) for teams losing titles etc because of that.

[StevieC]

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I can't see how they would be stripped of 2012, even if there was a discrepancy, because I don't think they had any players on loan from Kaunas last season. 2006 would be in trouble though.

How do you present a trophy to a team that no longer exists???

Would actually highlight how much of a joke Scottish Football has become, that Gretna are in the running for a Scottish Cup title?

[Part/Time Supporter]

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How do you present a trophy to a team that no longer exists???

Would actually highlight how much of a joke Scottish Football has become, that Gretna are in the running for a Scottish Cup title?

Re-awarding cup wins is very tricky. On the face of it it should be awarded to the runner-up, but then all the other teams that Hearts (or Rangers, in their cases) knocked out earlier in the competition could argue that they would have gone on to win it.

[StevieC]

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There is no suggestion (yet) of double-contracts or the like. "All" they are accused of is not complying with tax law.

Maybe not a direct suggestion of double contracts, but there is a suggestion that the players were receiving 2 wages .. one (small one) from Hearts and one (large one) from Lithuania.
If the one from Lithuania was registered with the League then they've nothing to worry about.
If it wasn't, is it any different to the additional EBT payments that Rangers players received?

[IWasThere2016]

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I am led to believe that this isn't the case.

HMRC can demand info from UK employer and UK employee - and the info will not tie - as payments are also sent/received via Lithuania.

I wouldnae be confident if I was a Yam

[Hibbyradge]

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Does anyone know if Rangers are likely to be stripped of cup wins? Or if that is something that would be pursued along with titles?

I would honestly laugh and probably never stop if Hearts were stripped of last seasons. Can you imagine it? A match that they can basically rip the you know what out of us for the rest of our lives. If that was suddenly taken away due to them being cheating tax dodging ****bags.

It would never take the hurt away that I felt on the day, but I would certainly feel a lot better and would raise a wee glass to justice being done.

The HMRC action might hit them financially, but it's unlikely to affect them in that way.

In any case, the tax case applies to a previous period.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Maybe not a direct suggestion of double contracts, but there is a suggestion that the players were receiving 2 wages .. one (small one) from Hearts and one (large one) from Lithuania.
If the one from Lithuania was registered with the League then they've nothing to worry about.
If it wasn't, is it any different to the additional EBT payments that Rangers players received?

As ever, Stevie, I'm sitting on the fence.

The "suggestions" have all come from the media and the message boards. In other words, with little authority. The one you mention would indeed have them in double-contract territory. But "mere" tax-dodging doesn't seem to be a hanging offence yet.

It's cold up here on the fence......

[Hibbyradge]

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HMRC can demand info from UK employer and UK employee - and the info will not tie - as payments are also sent/received via Lithuania.

I wouldnae be confident if I was a Yam

I don't understand this bit, G.

If a player was receiving, and declaring, £1000pw from Hearts, but was paid another £4k from Kaunus into a Lith based bank account, how would HMRC prove it?

[Part/Time Supporter]

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I don't understand this bit, G.

If a player was receiving, and declaring, £1000pw from Hearts, but was paid another £4k from Kaunus into a Lith based bank account, how would HMRC prove it?

Co-operation with the Lithuanian tax authorities.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Co-operation with the Lithuanian tax authorities.

All that would do would prove that the player had or hadn't been paying the correct amount of tax. It would have no relevance to Hearts.

If they have been operating the correct PAYE codes (as issued by HMRC), then it's none of their business what the players have been paid elsewhere; that's entirely between the player and the tax authorities here and abroad.

[JeMeSouviens]

Slightly o/t, but this caught my eye being referred to on kickback. Was anyone else aware of a previous episode of Yammish financial shenanigans?

http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/2...241543_1011739

Financial Crisis

During season 1904-05 the club ran into financial difficulties because the limited company formed in 1903 was unable to continue after debts amounting to £1,400 had accumulated. In March 1905 at a Quarterly General Meeting, a resolution, "Proposal for Temporary Loans from Present Shareholders", was defeated by 94 votes to 72, but later that month, three resolutions were passed and the company was voluntarily wound up. On 29 April 1905, the present company was incorporated on the Register of Companies and the new concern picked up the debt which had increased to £1,600. Despite a problem selling all the new shares it cleared this debt within a reasonably short time.

Does this amount to a Hearts newco? In which case, scrub 3 Scottish cups and 2 league titles from their honours. Making Hibs comfortably Edinburgh's most successful club (since league titles are trumps).

4 Championships, 2 Scottish cups, 3 Scottish League cups vs 2 Championships, 5 Scottish cups*, 4 Scottish League cups

* if they get to keep them all.

[Hibbyradge]

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All that would do would prove that the player had or hadn't been paying the correct amount of tax. It would have no relevance to Hearts.

If they have been operating the correct PAYE codes (as issued by HMRC), then it's none of their business what the players have been paid elsewhere; that's entirely between the player and the tax authorities here and abroad.

So it's ok for Hearts to pay a player in Litas and in Sterling and in 2 separate countries?

I'm well confused.

[TrinityHibs]

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I sort of agree with that. The plan to move from Tynecastle was understandably unpopular but in truth it was the least bad option he had (apart from finding a sugardaddy) and in truth, was moving to a bigger, better stadium a few hundred yards away really that bad? The atmosphere would certainly have suffered, but I reckon they could have countered that by only opening certain parts of the stadium. Undoubtedly they'd be in a healthier position now if they'd taken their medicine then.



Certainly he overspent and probably mismanaged the club somewhat, but he inherited a real mess from Mercer. The stadium was half finished and sub-standard with a commitment to complete to the same low but expensive standards, and the finances were far from being healthy. HoMFC have had ideas above their station since well before Pieman's time but he tried to go some way towards reining them back, at least towards the end of his regime.

While Mercer was a bad man, for a host of reasons and probably manipulated a higher offer out of Robinson by using Hearts minded businessmen to promote an alternative offer for the club (They were actually advised not to get involved by Sir Davie Murray as he thought it was a sure fire way to lose serious money..the irony) he did construct usable stands that were relatively inexpensive. He also had the Council lined up to take a lease on the dead space under the third stand which went a good way to actually paying for it. This disappeared as quickly as the existing Gorgie pie supplier when Robinson got involved. Robinson was out of his depth and didnt have, or was able to source, the cash to lose that was needed to maintain the Gorgie excesses.

[The_Sauz]

When folks on here were talking about Craig Gordon situation, I remembered about this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Gon%C3%A7alves refusing to sign a new deal, as it was going to be a Kaunas contract and not a Hearts one. FJK then told the media that was dropping him as did not want to stay with the "Big" team (We all knew it was Vlad that dropped him ) and then was promptly shipped out on loan to Germany for not playing nice with Vlad

2006–2008	Kaunas	0	(0)
2006–2008	→ Hearts (loan)	38	(0)
2008–2010	Hearts	20	(2)
2008–2009	→ 1. FC Nuremberg (loan)	14	(0)

So he was signed by Kaunas, yet never played for them
How many other have gone down this route!

[CropleyWasGod]

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So it's ok for Hearts to pay a player in Litas and in Sterling and in 2 separate countries?

I'm well confused.

Sorry, your post said that it was Kaunas who paid them in Lithuania. That's what my post referred to.

If Hearts chose to pay them in different currencies, then there's nothing wrong with that either, as long as they were paid under PAYE. (and, as I keep saying, , as long as they are Hearts' employees)

[hibsmad]

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Sorry to pour cold water on any of this, but thus far Hearts haven't been accused of anything that would warrant stripping them of anything. There is no suggestion (yet) of double-contracts or the like. "All" they are accused of is not complying with tax law. I don't think there is any precedent anywhere (including Rangers) for teams losing titles etc because of that.

It's ok I realise they haven't been accused yet and also that there is no precedent. I just like to hope.

To those replying that they were not paying players via Lithuania last year. What about the possibility of players who were previously paid by Kaunas but who still played for Hearts last season. Im thinking of the likes of Zaliukas or Novikovas. I know I'm clutching at straws here but I just want to believe that there is the slightest possibility.

Come on people, give me something here!

[SloopJB]

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How do you present a trophy to a team that no longer exists???

Would actually highlight how much of a joke Scottish Football has become, that Gretna are in the running for a Scottish Cup title?

wouldn't they just be 're writing the history books'?
Doesn't matter the club no longer exists, they clearly did at the time.

[StevieC]

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wouldn't they just be 're writing the history books'?
Doesn't matter the club no longer exists, they clearly did at the time.

Yes, that's what they'd do.

I'm just highlighting the fact that it was a team that came from nowhere, (potentially) won a cup, and then disappeared again.

[greenginger]

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It's ok I realise they haven't been accused yet and also that there is no precedent. I just like to hope.

To those replying that they were not paying players via Lithuania last year. What about the possibility of players who were previously paid by Kaunas but who still played for Hearts last season. Im thinking of the likes of Zaliukas or Novikovas. I know I'm clutching at straws here but I just want to believe that there is the slightest possibility.

Come on people, give me something here!

Best chance is with Skacel. At his court case in the dispute with his agent it was stated his salary as per his contract was 190,000 euro per year about £ 3000 per week.

I don't think the player came back to Hearts to get paid a lot less than some of the other donkeys.

Trouble is nobody is asking any questions --- Yet !

[hibsmad]

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Best chance is with Skacel. At his court case in the dispute with his agent it was stated his salary as per his contract was 190,000 euro per year about £ 3000 per week.

I don't think the player came back to Hearts to get paid a lot less than some of the other donkeys.

Trouble is nobody is asking any questions --- Yet !

That'll do, thanks!

[EskbankHibby]

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Does anyone know if Rangers are likely to be stripped of cup wins? Or if that is something that would be pursued along with titles?

I would honestly laugh and probably never stop if Hearts were stripped of last seasons. Can you imagine it? A match that they can basically rip the you know what out of us for the rest of our lives. If that was suddenly taken away due to them being cheating tax dodging ****bags.

It would never take the hurt away that I felt on the day, but I would certainly feel a lot better and would raise a wee glass to justice being done.

In the unlikely event that anything like this did happen it would make no difference to me - they still had their day. It's the same with all the Rangers titles they may lose, all they lose is a few lines in the history books, the fans still had a magic day - the hangovers, the cup parades, bragging rights for a period of time.

For the same reason 7-0, 6-2, 5-1 or 4-0 now mean almost nothing to me. 7-0 (was not at) and 6-2 (was at) will mean at lot less to me than a scabby 1-0 win at the piggery in the next derby.

As an aside seems that the "mug punter share issue" has a few takers.

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-ev...ssue-1-2607161

[Off the bar]

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In the unlikely event that anything like this did happen it would make no difference to me - they still had their day. It's the same with all the Rangers titles they may lose, all they lose is a few lines in the history books, the fans still had a magic day - the hangovers, the cup parades, bragging rights for a period of time.

For the same reason 7-0, 6-2, 5-1 or 4-0 now mean almost nothing to me. 7-0 (was not at) and 6-2 (was at) will mean at lot less to me than a scabby 1-0 win at the piggery in the next derby.

As an aside seems that the "mug punter share issue" has a few takers.

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-ev...ssue-1-2607161

not so much a piece of journalism there as a straight out sales pitch to the fans, no mention of the potential (highly likely) to lose all your money, I appreciate that its in an edinburgh paper and written by a jambo, but ffs a proper journalist would get a quote from a city trader or someone who knows the stock market who could say something like 'you'd be more likely to get a return by eating your money and waiting to see if you **** gold'
I almost feel sorry for the jumbos who are buying into this, almost.

[WindyMiller]

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In the unlikely event that anything like this did happen it would make no difference to me - they still had their day. It's the same with all the Rangers titles they may lose, all they lose is a few lines in the history books, the fans still had a magic day - the hangovers, the cup parades, bragging rights for a period of time.

For the same reason 7-0, 6-2, 5-1 or 4-0 now mean almost nothing to me. 7-0 (was not at) and 6-2 (was at) will mean at lot less to me than a scabby 1-0 win at the piggery in the next derby.

As an aside seems that the "mug punter share issue" has a few takers.

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-ev...ssue-1-2607161

Some Yam Fud....“I don’t think it’s a case of Hearts not being here if people don’t buy into this, but they will struggle and they will have to cut back even more. They could still be a big club but they won’t be a top club.




Cannae help themselves

[Pedantic_Hibee]

I wouldn't want a retrospective award of a Scottish Cup title.

[jacomo]

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As an aside seems that the "mug punter share issue" has a few takers.

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-ev...ssue-1-2607161

more fool them - mind you, I am not sure people as credulous as this should have unsupervised access to their own bank account:

Supporters want to back their club in its hour of need following statements from 
director Sergejus Fedotovas stressing that the situation is now “serious” as the board seeks new investment. Steve Kilgour, secretary of the Federation of Hearts Supporters’ Clubs, said: “Of the fans I’ve spoken to so far, I’d say about 95 per cent of them are interested in buying shares. Most of the ones I’ve spoken to go to games week in and week out and the feedback has been very positive. The majority of people I’ve spoken to are going to buy shares.

“I think people realise we have to do something to help the club. The ultimatum is you either back them or watch them dwindle. The folk I’ve talked to are loyal Hearts fans and willing to back the club. If you have the club’s best interests at heart, then you have to back this. In the absence of a better alternative at the moment, we have to back the share scheme.

“I don’t think it’s a case of Hearts not being here if people don’t buy into this, but they will struggle and they will have to cut back even more. They could still be a big club but they won’t be a top club.

“If what we’re getting told is 100 per cent true, which I tend to believe it is, then I think the club has been as transparent as they can be. If you’re honest with the fans, the fans will back you. That’s what we’ve always said. It’s like any walk of life, if people feel they’re getting duped they will walk away.

“At my own supporters’ club, Livingston Hearts, our members have really got behind it. They’ve actually asked to organise a fundraiser so we can buy shares in the name of the supporters’ club. That’s on top of what anyone might do as an individual.”

[jacomo]

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I wouldn't want a retrospective award of a Scottish Cup title.

Agreed, pointless and it wouldn't feel real.

[hibsmad]

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I wouldn't want a retrospective award of a Scottish Cup title.

I wouldn't want awarded the cup either. I would just want them found guilty of cheating and subsequently stripped of their greatest ever victory.

Despite the fact they still had their day, if they had the trophy taken back then that would hurt their fans - to the point of them probably feeling physically sick.

That would please me a lot.