Offside?

[beensaidbefore]

To be offside, surely your feet must be in an offside position, not your upper body?

[surreyhibbie]

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To be offside, surely your feet must be in an offside position, not your upper body?

No, any part of your body that you can legally touch the ball with.

Chest, head, etc....

[beensaidbefore]

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No, any part of your body that you can legally touch the ball with.

Chest, head, etc....

ok, fair do's.

cheers

[Hibercelona]

I always thought that it was only offside if the part of the body the ball touches is offside.

If your head is offside, but your feet are onside and you control the ball with your feet, you're not exactly gaining an advantage from your head being in an offside position.

I suppose it doesn't really matter though. The offside rule varies, depending on who's in charge of the game...

[delbert]

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I always thought that it was only offside if the part of the body the ball touches is offside.

If your head is offside, but your feet are onside and you control the ball with your feet, you're not exactly gaining an advantage from your head being in an offside position.

I suppose it doesn't really matter though. The offside rule varies, depending on who's in charge of the game...

Thats not the case, give it a go sometime, try it at game speed and at ground level, only one chance to get it right, and maintain your full concentration for 90, perhaps 120 minutes, whilst being constantly criticised the whole time - dead easy !!

As was stated, any part of your body you can legally score with can be offside, so only part of body which does'nt come into that category is hands or arms, thats the guidance given to referees on offside

[Hibercelona]

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Thats not the case, give it a go sometime, try it at game speed and at ground level, only one chance to get it right, and maintain your full concentration for 90, perhaps 120 minutes, whilst being constantly criticised the whole time - dead easy !!

That would be true assuming it was just one person in charge.

But there are now several officials involved in each game and there's no excuse for all of them losing their concentration at the exact same time.

It just seems that in some games, players can be slightly offside and get away with it time and time again, where as in other games, players get called offside all the time, even if they are perfectly in line with the last defender.

It certainly does vary from game to game.

[Geo_1875]

Did they do away with the daylight between players rule?

[StevieT]

Surreyhibbie has it spot on. It's not as easy at it looks to get these right and you must remember it is when the ball is played so the assistant has to have one eye on the ball being played and the other on the second last defender. Mind you, last nights was fairly easy, but not as easy as the one Celtic got in CL qualifier.

[Onion]

They showed a graphic last night that suggested that the player who scored was behind the line of the ball when it was crossed. Although it was a forward pass he was behind the line of the ball and therefor not offside ?

[.Sean.]

Was Scotland's goal offside? I only seen it once but it looked like Miller was ahead of the defender.

[StevieT]

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They showed a graphic last night that suggested that the player who scored was behind the line of the ball when it was crossed. Although it was a forward pass he was behind the line of the ball and therefor not offside ?

Haven't seen that footage so can't comment.

[Just_Jimmy]

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Was Scotland's goal offside? I only seen it once but it looked like Miller was ahead of the defender.

No. Both Mackie and miller were level when it was played, it touched the defender on the way through anyway and miller stayed behind mackie before he scored.

[.Sean.]

How does that work if Miller was infront of the defender though?

[Hibbyradge]

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How does that work if Miller was infront of the defender though?

The ball wasn't passed forward.

[littleplum]

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The ball wasn't passed forward.

Following this and the thread last night I'm beginning to wonder if everyone actually knows what an offside position is (never mind gaining an advantage or interfering with play). Just for the removal of doubt a player is in an offside position if, at the moment the ball is played by a team mate, he/she is nearer to his opponents' goal line than both the ball and the second last opponent ie you can only be offside if you're ahead of the ball.

Sorry if this is stating the obvious but a few comments have left me wondering.

[IWasThere2016]

Both goals were onside IMHO.

[Stevie Reid]

As others have pointed out, a linesman's job is very, very difficult, and I believe that the most recent offside rules try (quite reasonably) to protect them.

The 'any part of the attacker being in front of the defender' rule, alongside the 'give the benefit of the doubt to the attacker' caveat, mean that negligible decisions can be reasonably justified either way.

[--------]

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Following this and the thread last night I'm beginning to wonder if everyone actually knows what an offside position is (never mind gaining an advantage or interfering with play). Just for the removal of doubt a player is in an offside position if, at the moment the ball is played by a team mate, he/she is nearer to his opponents' goal line than both the ball and the second last opponent ie you can only be offside if you're ahead of the ball.

Sorry if this is stating the obvious but a few comments have left me wondering.

FIFA - Laws of the Game 2012/13, page 35; "Law 11 - Offside". The question of whether the player is gaining and advantage or interfering with play only arises of he IS offside - if he isn't, those questions are irrelevant.

I have the BBC highlights stopped at the moment the pass is made. It's by no means as clear as some people (like McGregor in his post-match interview, for example) are making out.

In fact, I'd say that if anything the scorer looks to be just onside. He's looking towards the ball, and he just checks himself to let the ball go past him before he makes his move. He's closer to the goal-line than the last "defender" (using the term charitably - it's Webster or Berra I'm talking about) but in line with the ball. Onside.

Looked at it again - positive the guy was onside - only just, but onside. A case of a quick-thinking Macedonian striker out-thinking Webster, Berra and Caldwell ...

[Hibs Class]

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Following this and the thread last night I'm beginning to wonder if everyone actually knows what an offside position is (never mind gaining an advantage or interfering with play). Just for the removal of doubt a player is in an offside position if, at the moment the ball is played by a team mate, he/she is nearer to his opponents' goal line than both the ball and the second last opponent ie you can only be offside if you're ahead of the ball.

Sorry if this is stating the obvious but a few comments have left me wondering.

Ball also has to be played forward. So a player who is ahead of the ball when it's cut back and then moves back to collect the cutback cannot be offside.

[Sergio sledge]

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Both goals were onside IMHO.

In both instances the ball was closer to the goal-line than the goalscorer when it was passed, therefore they were both onside.

[littleplum]

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Ball also has to be played forward. So a player who is ahead of the ball when it's cut back and then moves back to collect the cutback cannot be offside.

No, that's not correct. The direction the ball is played in is irrelevant. It's the position the player is in when the ball is played that matters. In your scenario the player would be offside (provding he's also ahead of the second last opponent).

[Sergio sledge]

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Ball also has to be played forward. So a player who is ahead of the ball when it's cut back and then moves back to collect the cutback cannot be offside.

No mention of that in the laws of the game:

FIFA - Laws of the Game 2012/13, page 35; "Law 11 - Offside"

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OFFSIDE POSITION

It is not an offence in itself to be in an offside position.
A player is in an offside position if:

• he is nearer to his opponents' goal line than both the ball and the second last opponent

A player is not in an offside position if:

• he is in his own half of the field of play or
• he is level with the second last opponent or
• he is level with the last two opponents

OFFENCE

A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his own team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by:

• interfering with play or
• interfering with an opponent or
• gaining an advantage by being in that position

NO OFFENCE

There is no offside offence if the player receives the ball directly from:

• a goal kick
• a throw in
• a corner kick

[Hibs Class]

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No, that's not correct. The direction the ball is played in is irrelevant. It's the position the player is in when the ball is played that matters. In your scenario the player would be offside (provding he's also ahead of the second last opponent).

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No mention of that in the laws of the game:

FIFA - Laws of the Game 2012/13, page 35; "Law 11 - Offside"

Is that a change in the laws? I didn't check the laws before posting, but my recollection previously was that the ball had to be played forward, although that's from the days when a player being in an offside position automatically led to offside being given, regardless of whether he was active/interfering with play/lying injured.

[littleplum]

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Is that a change in the laws? I didn't check the laws before posting, but my recollection previously was that the ball had to be played forward, although that's from the days when a player being in an offside position automatically led to offside being given, regardless of whether he was active/interfering with play/lying injured.

I qualified as a referee in 1999 and it wasn't in the laws then but tbh I've never heard of it.

[Twa Cairpets]

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Is that a change in the laws? I didn't check the laws before posting, but my recollection previously was that the ball had to be played forward, although that's from the days when a player being in an offside position automatically led to offside being given, regardless of whether he was active/interfering with play/lying injured.

No, never been a law as far as Im aware. It is a commonly held misconeption, because it may be the case that he is in what might look like an offside position (i.e. only th eGK between him and the goal, say), but isnt offside because he is behind the ball when its played.

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Did they do away with the daylight between players rule?

Again, never has been a law. It's a pundits special this one, that becomes accepted fact as numpties repeat it.

[littleplum]

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No, never been a law as far as Im aware. It is a commonly held misconeption, because it may be the case that he is in what might look like an offside position (i.e. only th eGK between him and the goal, say), but isnt offside because he is behind the ball when its played.



Again, never has been a law. It's a pundits special this one, that becomes accepted fact as numpties repeat it.

I do remember about 10 years ago Philip Don (who was the English ref boss) talking about how he was encouraging assistants to interpret the law in this way. It's never been a law or an IFAB interpretation as such and I don't know whether that's still the advice they are given. Tbh, I think anyone who's ever ran a line knows that whatever the advice is it's very difficult to be sure in many cases.

[Posh Swanny]

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Again, never has been a law. It's a pundits special this one, that becomes accepted fact as numpties repeat it.

See also: "he was the last man so he should have been sent off".

[Holmesdale Hibs]

I've been a linesman for a couple of Sunday league games and found it really difficult. Trying to watch when the ball is played and looking where the last defender is effectely means you have to look in 2 places at once. Combine that with the speed of the game at the top level and it's even more difficult.

[Treadstone]

Great thread this one . Watched the Macedonia game and thought i was missing something when three pundits (Provan , Smith and McCann ) failed to see Macedonia scorer was behind the ball as it was played . Although to be fair from the telly angle players head looked offside with depth perception and all that , kinda like Ted explaining to Dougal "those cows are far away" .
Last man cobblers always gets on my wick , myth is carried on by pundits too lazy to check or know the score . I have seen some bad officials but know that if i tried their job full scale riots on and off the pitch would become the norm .

[delbert]

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Great thread this one . Watched the Macedonia game and thought i was missing something when three pundits (Provan , Smith and McCann ) failed to see Macedonia scorer was behind the ball as it was played . Although to be fair from the telly angle players head looked offside with depth perception and all that , kinda like Ted explaining to Dougal "those cows are far away" .
Last man cobblers always gets on my wick , myth is carried on by pundits too lazy to check or know the score . I have seen some bad officials but know that if i tried their job full scale riots on and off the pitch would become the norm .

I will just say (once again), that all this proves is that the pundits, all of them without exception, know hee haw about the laws of the game, all of them. being a player gives you almost zero knowledge of the laws, as one pro who came through a refs class (a pro who played at the highest level in Europe I might add) was honest enough to admit to me during a referee class in Edinburgh. If you are daft enough to believe all that Hansen Lawrenson Shearer, Provan Burley know what they are thinking about, then please keep dreaming. What i would suggest is getting yourself along to a local refs class and do the course, you may not want to actively referee, but you will at least join the very small club of people who watch the game from a position of knowledge, and it also opens up a world of comedy gold when you realise that what these guys say every weekend is nothing other than total and utter bollocks!

Footnote - 1978, ITV World Cup Forum included (for about a week), Jack Taylor, the English referee who did the 1974 World Cup Final. Reason he only lasted a week was that he kept agreeing and explaining that the referee had actually got the decision right, whilst the two numpty players or managers on with him just wanted to rip the refs to shreds so basically Taylor was not providing the controversy and total ignorance required - so he was dumped. This point of view on behalf of the broadcasters hasn't in general changed during the intervening 35 years, because ignorance is indeed bliss when it comes to viewing figures.