Charles Green accuses other clubs of using EBTs - are Hibs one of them?

[tamig]

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Charles Green is fast becoming my number one most hated figure in Scottish football, which is saying something. Any chance of the Rangers returning as anything other than the vile institution that they were previously disappeared when he took over - all arrogance, zero humility, and seeking to punish other clubs for wanting Rangers dealt with fairly and properly for their significant crimes.

They are a perfect match, unfortunately. I could see there being serious bother between fans when they eventually return to the SPL, and then they will well and truly have dragged us back to the dark ages.

A chance for real progress missed, sadly.

He's your stereotypical hun figurehead - arrogant, self-centred erse of a man. Epitomises the "no one likes us we don't care" ethos of the bigotted hordes perfectly.

[thebakerboy]

It seems astonishing to me that they still think they are where they are because everybody hates them. Well everyone does hate them but thats not why they are where they are. Glasgow Rangers cheated every tax payer in Great Britain and won numerous Trophies with players they could not afford and then eventually went in to liquidation and are no more. Somehow Newco managed to buy their assets for a song and restarted at the bottom of the leagues as per the rules of Scottish Football using the name of Rangers. This is why they are in SFL Division 3 and they can thank the Scottish Football authorities for allowing them in despite them not really fulfilling the criteria for entry to the league. WHY DON'T THEY JUST SHUT UP AND GET ON WITH IT OR PREFERABLY JUST GO AWAY.

[Hibernia Na Eir]

I'd ask, just what interest does CG have in Scottish football? he's just in the country, he's not a hun fan. what's his game? he's a crook. pure and simple. he has to be. let the authorities do their worst on the Hun history books!
punish them and keep punishing them!!

[Kato]

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I was waiting on the punchline

I was waiting for the punchbowl.

[jacomo]

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Wholeheartedly agree with the above. Listened to his interview this morning on Radio scotland and a more odious, thick individual you would struggle to find.


Humility is just something other people have as far as he is concerned, in fact he's not even sure he wants a return into the SPL - seriously.

That's right, 3 successive promotions to, eh, stay in division one.

'The Greater Good' is not something Charles Green understands or cares about. So long as he makes some cash, who cares about the health of Scottish football eh? Much better to wind up the hordes and create even more division and bitterness.

McCoist is a devious wee rat as well.

[Onion]

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If anything Green's newco are even more cretinous than Whyte and Sir Skinty's oldco. Should we be surpirsed though?

Still think this is no bad thing. The more odious and aggrieved they come across (with NO JUSTIFICATION), the less likely they will get any sympathy from the other "bigotted" SPL clubs and the general public. Remember, more than one Chairman suggested that Newco would have been invited straight into the SPL if it wasn't for their arrogant presentation at Hampden.

Every attack on the SFA, SPL and other clubs just increases the chances of them languishing in the outback of Scottish football - where they belong.

[StevieC]

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Every attack on the SFA, SPL and other clubs just increases the chances of them languishing in the outback of Scottish football - where they belong.

I think that is very harsh, and very unfair, on the many decent well-run football clubs that make up the Scottish Football League.

[cam75]

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Dual contracts are regarded as malpractice by both UEFA and FIFA so its pretty certain that the SFA said no. The Celtic situation was fundamentally different from the scheme Rangers implemented.

While the SPL may have no authority over the Newco they most certainly have over the Oldco and the trophies it apparently won while under the auspices of the SPL, as well as the legitamacy of the Oldco's operations whilst affil;iated to the SPL. There is no doubt the SFA, whose rules were breached, have authority over both.

Green, by accepting membership of the SFL, is now contracted to accept the decisions and authority of the SFA in all football related matters. He has already taken them to court once which will not have gone unnoticed by UEFA hence the methodicall process we are witnessing unfold. Slowly and surely we are getting to the endgame step by slow step.

I would like to think this will reach a point where this moves out of the football arena and into that of a criminal investigation as millions of pounds have been denied to the exchequer through a vehicle which is, to all intents and purposes, a tax scam, a tax scam that Rangers couldnt even operate correctly. There are many questions that need to answered.

Sir David who?could be more Like prisoner 16XXXXXXXX

[IWasThere2016]

Good piece in the Herald by Roger Mitchell today - Charles Green

[PatHead]

Another piece from today's Herald (not the one above)

Former chairman says SPL knew how Rangers' EBTs worked, and still granted licence

Published on 12 September 2012
Richard Wilson
Alistair Johnston, the former Rangers chairman, has defended the club's use of Employee Benefit Trusts and described the Scottish Premier League's investigation into player registrations at Ibrox as "a kangaroo court".
Johnston released his statement through the Rangers Supporters Trust yesterday, as the SPL's independent commission met for the first time.
The commission, chaired by Lord Nimmo Smith, was convened by the SPL because it believes Rangers have a prima facie case to answer for allegedly breaching rules in their administration of EBTs for 10 years under the ownership of Sir David Murray.
A first-tier tax tribunal is currently ruling on whether Rangers are liable for a £24m tax bill, with additional fines and penalties, for mis-administering the scheme.
But Johnston says the Scottish Football Association knew the nature of the EBT scheme, and still granted Rangers a licence to play. He insists the SPL probe and commission is driven by the "vested interests" of rival clubs.
His view is shared by Ibrox chief executive Charles Green, who has refused to attend the commission's hearings. Johnston has called for the SFA to halt the SPL commission.
"I can't sit on the sidelines and watch a miscarriage of justice," Johnston said. "The whole process has been established to satisfy a self-serving agenda in the SPL. The SFA is complicit in all of this because they have not had the courage to publicly acknowledge that they either ignored or did not really understand the well-publicised structure surrounding the relationship that Rangers FC had with certain of its players.
"I have been reviewing my files from around April 2011 relating to the annual routine of Rangers FC being granted a licence. Because of the publicity surrounding our club at the time, the SFA wrote to us asking for more details about the public speculation concerning our financial and tax situation. The latter obviously referenced the impact of the EBT schemes as creating a potential taxation liability. The club responded accordingly and provided details, as it had done in previous years, by declaring player salaries, bonuses, benefits, etc, but also payments made to a Remuneration Trust.
"The SFA compliance officers must have known, both from the description and context of the reports, that such expenditures had some connection to player compensation.
"However, without any further investigation at the time, Rangers FC received its SFA licence to compete in the 2011/2012 season. Rangers, therefore, were entitled to believe that they were not in breach of any SFA regulation requiring reporting of player compensation."
Johnston took issue with accusations of financial doping by Rangers being able to sign more expensive players because they paid less tax. He feels the club's signing policy would have been no different without the EBT scheme, and instead credit facilities with the Bank of Scotland would have been increased.
"Our opponents maintain, illogically, that without the use of EBTs Rangers would have been unable to afford the quality of players that they fielded and thus gained an advantage over other clubs against which they competed," Johnston said.
"The reality is that Sir David Murray, who was intimately involved in the architecture of these efforts to organise the business in a way to mitigate taxation which is totally legitimate and acceptable under all tenets of the law, would have signed and paid for these very same players whether or not EBT schemes were in effect.
"During most of the period under investigation, he as well as his company enjoyed a very mutually productive relationship with the Bank of Scotland. The Rangers Board consistently believed that if and when the debt reached a level where the bank became uncomfortable Sir David, as he did in 2004 when he underwrote a subscription for Rangers shares and thus eliminated much of the bank debt, would be able and willing to repeat this recovery effort."

So correct me if I am wrong but Johnston says SFA should stop the enquiry because SFA turned a blind eye to Rangers predicament. Should a second enquiry not be conducted into why SFA did not look into this illegal practice in 2011 and granted Rangers a European licence that year. (Also brings me to ask why Campbell Ogilvie remains in a job) Also the Bank of Scotland, who reigned in Murray International Metals expenditure a few years ago would have let Rangers carry on spending money they didn't have signing players. They just don't get it do they?

[Nailrod]

We are safe. I can state with authority that under Rod's steady hand no Hibs player has ever been paid enough to owe tax, so EBT's have never been necessary.

[Caversham Green]

I see the SPL are satisfied that no rules were breached in Celtc's case.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19577683

This makes a point that is getting lost in the fog of misinformation emanating from Govan. EBTs are not the issue, not even if they were illegal from HMRC's viewpoint. The issue is whether contractual payments of any sort were made to players but not properly reported to the football authorities.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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I see the SPL are satisfied that no rules were breached in Celtc's case.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19577683

This makes a point that is getting lost in the fog of misinformation emanating from Govan. EBTs are not the issue, not even if they were illegal from HMRC's viewpoint. The issue is whether contractual payments of any sort were made to players but not properly reported to the football authorities.

Hibs were accused of something similar after winning the Scottish Cup (stay with me on this one) in 1887. Allegation was that they were paying wages (to Willie Groves IIRC) when all Scottish clubs were supposed to be amateur. Hibs were allowed to keep the cup, but the suggestion I've read from history books is that they were pretty lucky. This is basically the same issue, paying players excess amounts under the table.

[ScottB]

To be fair, the average Rangers fan believes this tripe because Green, McCoist and the media have rammed the lies down their throats.

We'd be in a much better situation if the tabloids reported the truth rather than what the average Ger wants to read.

[Phil MaGlass]

Dont worry bout it, it will all come out in about 23 years time.......

[StevieC]

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I see the SPL are satisfied that no rules were breached in Celtc's case.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19577683

This makes a point that is getting lost in the fog of misinformation emanating from Govan. EBTs are not the issue, not even if they were illegal from HMRC's viewpoint. The issue is whether contractual payments of any sort were made to players but not properly reported to the football authorities.

Totally agree.

How the BBC could claim "The league concluded the scheme was legal and above board" from the statement "The SPL has investigated the arrangements and documentation in that case and has determined that there is no evidence of any breach of SPL Rules" is beyond me. My understanding is that Celtic "inherited" the EBT when they signed him and openly discussed it with the SPL at the time to determine it's validity with regards to the SPL rules and their requirements to provide player payment information.

Slightly different to the Rangers situation.

[The Falcon]

Charlie boy should name names or shut the **** up. This way he just looks a bigger erse than he already is, if that's possible.

[GreenPJ]

I have not read all of this but what does the spl have to do with the running of an ebt and its legality. That's an issue for hmrc surely. The spl have rules about dual contracts which is under investigation is not intrinsically linked to the correct running of an ebt scheme does it?

Charles green pr position is purely to pander to the rangers fans for their money and to the media so he can show how big a club rangers are and entice in investors and a buyer so he makes a killing on his initial investment.

[LeighLoyal]

What does Green care if oldco have trophies stripped? Oh wait... he wants to sell Sevco shares to the Orcs, better whip them up with more of the same bigot defiance that got them buying season books. Maybe the same trick will work again? Sevco = newco = oldco, repeat mantra....

[lapsedhibee]

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What does Green care if oldco have trophies stripped? Oh wait... he wants to sell Sevco shares to the Orcs, better whip them up with more of the same bigot defiance that got them buying season books. Maybe the same trick will work again? Sevco = newco = oldco, repeat mantra....

Don't understand how there can still be any ongoing debate about whether or not titles will be stripped. I thought McMoist already stated many weeks ago that he wouldn't accept that? Surely that's the end of the matter?

[CropleyWasGod]

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I have not read all of this but what does the spl have to do with the running of an ebt and its legality. That's an issue for hmrc surely. The spl have rules about dual contracts which is under investigation is not intrinsically linked to the correct running of an ebt scheme does it?

Charles green pr position is purely to pander to the rangers fans for their money and to the media so he can show how big a club rangers are and entice in investors and a buyer so he makes a killing on his initial investment.

There is a lot of confusion about this, not least in the media.

If the EBT scheme was being run as suggested, ie that payments from the Trust were contracted, that means that there were two contracts in existence. One for payments from the Club, one for payments from the Trust. The question is whether the Trust contracts (the BBC say they were actually "side letters") were registered with the SPL.

[Hibiza]

he's just a turd.

[Onion]

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There is a lot of confusion about this, not least in the media.

If the EBT scheme was being run as suggested, ie that payments from the Trust were contracted, that means that there were two contracts in existence. One for payments from the Club, one for payments from the Trust. The question is whether the Trust contracts (the BBC say they were actually "side letters") were registered with the SPL.

exactly. I'm not sure why people are getting their knickers in a twist about EBTs. They are not illegal per se. The issue is whether or not the SPL were made aware of all contractual payments made by the club (directly oir indirectly) to the players.

Whether or not the structure of these EBTs were "legal" is a matter for HMRC and the courts.

They are two completely independent issues.

[matty_f]

Even Rangers' claims that the SPL knew about payments to players from ebt's is a red herring.
AFAIK, discretionary payments would have been permissible but payments that formed part of the players' wage ( i.e. £x/game which was a guaranteed payment and therefore not discretionary) had to be declared on one contract registered with the SPL.

Green and co are trying classic mis-direction to confuse the issue.

[ballengeich]

If the Record's report is accurate (no s******ing at the back) then the SPL's statement isn't helpful. They quote a spokesman as saying that Celtic had no case to answer because Juninho was paid from an EBT after he left Celtic's employment. That's not the point. Celtic have no case to answer because Juninho was paid the balance of the money due to him under his contract which was fully registered at the SFA. Whether it was paid from an EBT or in cash from the biscuit tin is irrelevant under football rules. Billy Dodds' payment on leaving Rangers comes into the same category, though he did unwittingly help the HMRC case against his former club.

[ballengeich]

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Even Rangers' claims that the SPL knew about payments to players from ebt's is a red herring.

Green and co are trying classic mis-direction to confuse the issue.

Not just a red herring, but probably false. Rangers' accounts show total amounts paid into the EBT scheme, but reveal nothing about payments out of the scheme so the SPL would have no information showing how players were paid. There was no need for them to know the internal club mechanism for paying wages. What the SPL is investigating is whether the contracts they were shown cover all payments to players for playing football. If payments from the EBT were included in the contracts then no offence has occurred, but from the evidence available in public I don't think that's the case.