Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[PatHead]

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But Zombie Huns are not rangers. So what are they being punished for exactly? Your argument could be used to say that Ben Johnson's son shouldnt be allowed to compete in the Olympics because his dad was a cheat.

This argument is about whether it is advisable or desirable to admit a new club into the SFL at a higher level than normal. In that situation the clubs only concern should be how will their final decision affect their member clubs. It is not the job of the SFL or anybody else for that matter to punish Zombie Huns.

We cant have it both ways .... Either this club is Rangers, with all of the baggage that goes with that. Or it is not Rangers, in which case my previous comments are valid.

I agree with your point that this is not Rangers. Why should they then get into the second tier? Unfortunately because a lot of people see them as the new Rangers. They play in blue, they play at Ibrox, Sky ESPN say "Rangers" must be there so they obviously see "them" as the new Rangers.


Just like how we now see Airdrie United, we don't see their history at New Kilbowie................................

[jgl07]

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But Zombie Huns are not rangers. So what are they being punished for exactly? Your argument could be used to say that Ben Johnson's son shouldnt be allowed to compete in the Olympics because his dad was a cheat.

This argument is about whether it is advisable or desirable to admit a new club into the SFL at a higher level than normal. In that situation the clubs only concern should be how will their final decision affect their member clubs. It is not the job of the SFL or anybody else for that matter to punish Zombie Huns.

We cant have it both ways .... Either this club is Rangers, with all of the baggage that goes with that. Or it is not Rangers, in which case my previous comments are valid.

This is complete rubbish.

Since when have any new team been admitted to the SFL at anothing but the bottom level. Did they fast track Inverness through to Division One? They were obviusly going to be a far bigger club that most in the lower divisions as proved by subsequent events.

Rangers should be thankful that their was no established pyramid structure in Scotland or they would have had to had to start at a much lower level.

In any event if they are not Rangers they could not be considered for membership of the SFA. In order to operate as a football club they need SFA membership. This cannot be granted to anyone who walks in off the street.

PS When did Neil Doncaster hack your account?

[Northernhibee]

Right, let's get this article forwarded to all the SFL member clubs.

Am I right in thinking that there's an e-mail list somewhere in this thread?

[YehButNoBut]

Not sure if this has been posted but statement from Hibs supporters club on the Rangers situation, issued today.

http://hibsclub.co.uk/2012/07/08/sta...tish-football/

[rcarter1]

Funny how we all see this differently. For me, Sevco are Rangers. They will be supported by Rangers fans - and benefit from the financial advantage of that, they will call themselves Rangers or The Rangers, they are definitely not Celtic, and they are not some strange new club that will be supported by a new set of people. In all likelihood they will play at Ibrox, and still, as yet have some players that were on Rangers books.

So whats changed?

The company is about to be liquidated. This is the great-grandfather of all financial sidesteps.

From 30 - 130 million pounds in debt, to wooops, no debts.

A football club is generally successful as a function of its financial strength. It is therefore the most remarkable stealing of an advantage I have ever had the misfortune to witness - UNLESS they are punished in some fashion.
I wish, before this all got to this point, that they were forced to trade - as normal in the SPL, but be forced to pay 10 million per year to service these debts. Apparently they don't have to because of business/financial law.

If they do get back into Div 1, then there had better be some drastic penalties associated with it.

[Caversham Green]

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But Zombie Huns are not rangers. So what are they being punished for exactly? Your argument could be used to say that Ben Johnson's son shouldnt be allowed to compete in the Olympics because his dad was a cheat.

This argument is about whether it is advisable or desirable to admit a new club into the SFL at a higher level than normal. In that situation the clubs only concern should be how will their final decision affect their member clubs. It is not the job of the SFL or anybody else for that matter to punish Zombie Huns.

We cant have it both ways .... Either this club is Rangers, with all of the baggage that goes with that. Or it is not Rangers, in which case my previous comments are valid.

This comes back to the point I made many pages ago. There's a choice to be made whether Zombie Huns are a completely new club or a continuation of the old one. The law of the land is absolutely clear - they are a new entity and therefore escape all the sins of the old club - but the laws of the football authorities are ambiguous because they refer to clubs rather than companies without defining what a club is. However, if they're a completely new club they must be treated as such and admitted to the SFL in the prescribed way, without fear or favour to quote Mr Regan, and that is into SFL3. And, regardless of what their fans say, they have absolutely no history - no cups, no league titles, no European record. If they're a continuation of the old club they must answer to charges for all of the previous company's misdemeanours and that should result in suspension for at least a season judging by the apellate tribunal's comments.

What we're seeing is an attempt to cherry-pick the 'good' bits and discard most of the 'bad' bits - the equivalent of awarding Ben Johnson a silver medal - that has no legal or moral justification IMO. What's more, it's all being done in the most arrogant, bullying and clumsy way possible.

They can't be allowed to have it both ways either.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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This is complete rubbish.

Since when have any new team been admitted to the SFL at anothing but the bottom level. Did they fast track Inverness through to Division One? They were obviusly going to be a far bigger club that most in the lower divisions as proved by subsequent events.

Rangers should be thankful that their was no established pyramid structure in Scotland or they would have had to had to start at a much lower level.

In any event if they are not Rangers they could not be considered for membership of the SFA. In order to operate as a football club they need SFA membership. This cannot be granted to anyone who walks in off the street.

PS When did Neil Doncaster hack your account?

In your opinion. There fixed that for you.

[BSEJVT]

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To pick up on this point only, sporting integrity does exist - it's the most fundamental element of sport. Participants will always try to cicumvent sporting integrity to varying degrees because they are more interested in winning, particularly in professional sport and that's why we have referees, umpires etc. and further up the chain governing bodies such as the SFA, the Olympics committees and suchlike. When a participant is caught trying to circumvent sporting integrity (i.e. cheating) they will be punished - by a free-kick/caution/sending off within the actual match or by fines, suspensions or points deductions afterwards. If sporting integrity didn't exist Ben Johnson would have an Olympic gold medal now.

The problem with the "Rangers" situation is that the authorities, whose main purpose of existence is to uphold sporting integrity, are themselves actively seeking ways to circumvent it. What they're doing now is the equivalent of the OC offering Johnson a silver medal because he would draw better attendances at future games as a medallist. It rewards cheating and robs all the honest participants of their just rewards, which then begs the questions why be honest or why participate at all.

Sport ceases to become sport when sporting integrity is lost and our sporting authorities are in the process of killing it right now. That's why everyone is so angry.

Wouldnt /couldnt disagree with that

Sporting integrity though means different things to different people.

For me it means the old Corinthian spirit of man v man

Not imported £5m player v homegrown youth and that was the basis of my comments

It's all about blurring lines and where your personal lines start to blur

[NAE NOOKIE]

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This comes back to the point I made many pages ago. There's a choice to be made whether Zombie Huns are a completely new club or a continuation of the old one. The law of the land is absolutely clear - they are a new entity and therefore escape all the sins of the old club - but the laws of the football authorities are ambiguous because they refer to clubs rather than companies without defining what a club is. However, if they're a completely new club they must be treated as such and admitted to the SFL in the prescribed way, without fear or favour to quote Mr Regan, and that is into SFL3. And, regardless of what their fans say, they have absolutely no history - no cups, no league titles, no European record. If they're a continuation of the old club they must answer to charges for all of the previous company's misdemeanours and that should result in suspension for at least a season judging by the apellate tribunal's comments.

What we're seeing is an attempt to cherry-pick the 'good' bits and discard most of the 'bad' bits - the equivalent of awarding Ben Johnson a silver medal - that has no legal or moral justification IMO. What's more, it's all being done in the most arrogant, bullying and clumsy way possible.

They can't be allowed to have it both ways either.

Thanks for a considered reply to my post.

A far as I know legally there is nothing to stop the SFL putting a new applicant into any league they want, morally .. well I agree thats a different matter. I also agree totally with your last sentence ... our game is run by idiots for the most part it would seem.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Thanks for a considered reply to my post.

A far as I know legally there is nothing to stop the SFL putting a new applicant into any league they want, morally .. well I agree thats a different matter. I also agree totally with your last sentence ... our game is run by idiots for the most part it would seem.

Aha... not so fast

I have been trawling the SFL Rules. http://www.scottishfootballleague.co..._and_Rules.pdf

94 2.2 "the ultimate vacancy caused by the original default will occur in the lowest Division of the League."

That ties in with Longmuir's statement last week that, if Sevco are voted in to D1, then the SFL has to change its rules. (which needs a 75% majority).

[PatHead]

Annan Athletic say they do not want Rangers in SPL1.

[grunt]

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Aha... not so fast

I have been trawling the SFL Rules. http://www.scottishfootballleague.co..._and_Rules.pdf

94 2.2 "the ultimate vacancy caused by the original default will occur in the lowest Division of the League."

That ties in with Longmuir's statement last week that, if Sevco are voted in to D1, then the SFL has to change its rules. (which needs a 75% majority).

Yeah but how does this sit with Rule 94.3 which states:

If any club(s) is expelled, resigns, retires or ceases to be a member of the League for any reason after the end of one playing season but before the commencement of the next playing season, the Board will have full powers to deal with the situation as it deems appropriate.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Yeah but how does this sit with Rule 94.3 which states:

Not sure how that applies to Sevco.

[grunt]

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Not sure how that applies to Sevco.

Gives the "Board" carte blanche to do what they like?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Gives the "Board" carte blanche to do what they like?

But Sevco are a new club, who haven't ceased to be a member of the League etc etc. They have never been a member of the SFL, either as RFC or as Sevco.

[Kaiser1962]

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From 30 - 130 million pounds in debt, to wooops, no debts.

Given the statements of Dodds and Boumsong it is the worst case scenario for the Huns. The argument was whether the EBT's were pre or post tax and it appears their statements have ended that particular debate.

If Dodds statement was accurate I fail to see why those responsible are not investigated for fraud.

[grunt]

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But Sevco are a new club, who haven't ceased to be a member of the League etc etc. They have never been a member of the SFL, either as RFC or as Sevco.

Oh, ok.

[SteveHFC]

[jdships]

Regardless of what name SEVCO adopts , sadly we will still have to suffer the problems that go with the baggage connected with the dead and buried " Glasgow Rangers "
If they are placed in Div 3 , in three years time we will be back to where we were three months ago with unnaceptable behaviour et al .
Nothing will have changed except the name and a new bunch of saddo's running the
" same ship different funnel "

[DC_Hibs]

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But Sevco are a new club, who haven't ceased to be a member of the League etc etc. They have never been a member of the SFL, either as RFC or as Sevco.

That would be my interpretation of it as well. Thanks for link to the rule book as that is the type of information we should be sending to Uefa bearing in mind the authorities blatant disregard for their own regulations...and precedents.

[blackpoolhibs]

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Regardless of what name SEVCO takes , sadly we will still have to suffer the problems that go with the baggage connected with the dead and buried " Glasgow Rangers "
If they are placed in Div 3 , in three years time we will be back to where we were three months ago with unnaceptable behaviour et al .
Nothing will have changed except the name and a new bunch of saddo's running the " same ship different funnel "

In my opinion that has to be wrong, or this whole episode will have been a complete waste of time.

Letting whatever they are called back into the league in Div 1 would be a huge mistake, it would not give us enough time to restructure the leagues, and bring in changes that the game needs.

There needs to be enough time so as proper consultation has taken place, on every point of this, not something rushed in and perhaps overlooking or even missing important issues?

[VickMackie]

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Not sure how that applies to Sevco.

I read it as if Dundee get promoted there will cease to be a member of the SFL and therefore a free space. The only way the SPL could avoid the situation, by that rule, is not to demote Dunfermline coa they're not a member currently.

[GORDONSMITH7]

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Not sure if this has been posted but statement from Hibs supporters club on the Rangers situation, issued today.

http://hibsclub.co.uk/2012/07/08/sta...tish-football/

Just to expand that. The Hibernian Supporters Association statement is spot on in my opinion.

For Hibs and their fans this summer should have been solely about a much needed rebuilding process.

Instead we have watched with increasing concern as the whole Scottish game has been tarnished by the financial collapse of Rangers.

As Hibs fans we know only too well how men concerned more with profiteering than the wishes of fans can risk the very existence of a football club.

So it is with increasing dismay that we have watched Scottish football tear itself apart in its attempts to protect a business model that operates more for the benefit of TV executives than ordinary supporters.

We believe that the new Rangers – if they can satisfy the usual standards demanded for SFA membership – should start out again in the Third Division.

We welcomed the “no” vote passed by the SPL, including our own club, but we have watched with dismay as the SPL clubs have stood silently on the sidelines as their own Chief Executive – with the help and approval of a now entirely discredited SFA – has tried to bully and threaten lower division clubs into submission.

Not only do we find the tactics used by Neil Doncaster and Stewart Regan abhorrent, we also take issue with the doomsday scenarios they have offered as evidence.

While TV money and corporate sponsorship are undoubtedly important we do not believe that all of them would vanish if the Rangers newco was not guaranteed a place in the SPL within 12 months.

We would also argue that additional benefits – including a return to more regular 3pm Saturday kick off times – would offset some of the lost revenue.

This, however, is an issue that should go beyond finances.

It is essential that Hibernian – like all clubs – are part of a fair and equitable league structure with governing bodies that are consistent and reasonable in their treatment of all clubs.

We do not believe that is currently the case and we would call on all SPL clubs – including our own – to urgently address the damage being done to the game by Neil Doncaster and Stewart Regan.

We have long felt that reconstruction of the league structure was a critical factor in strengthening the Scottish game.

The proposals that are currently being discussed destroy the prospect of a strong Scottish game and are aimed solely at rebuilding a strong Rangers.

These attempts at craven gerrymandering for the sake of one club are an affront to all the commitments to “sporting integrity” we have heard over the last few months.

Many Hibernian fans feel cheated. While the financial sacrifices made at Easter Road have not always found favour with many of our fans we do appreciate that these decisions have been made in the interests of long term stability.

We now find our voices ignored as rules are broken or rewritten to favour a club that has spent money it could not afford to buy success.

It is heartbreaking for us to hear members speak of not going back to Easter Road or of turning their back on the Scottish national team.

These are not hollow threats. They are a symptom of the disillusionment many fans feel at a game that seems to constantly betray its paying customers.

While we have sympathy for ordinary Rangers fans left bewildered by current events we have also been saddened over the last few months to hear Ally McCoist attempt to destroy a disciplinary process that had been created to help move the game forward.

Other comments from high profile Rangers figures such as Sandy Jardine have seemed to be nothing more than vindictive threats against other clubs. These have left us shocked and angered.

Now we find ourselves in the unacceptable position of watching Charles Green attempt to sign players while footballing debts to other clubs – debts that are as important as any projected TV or sponsorship income – remain unpaid.

Yet this apparent lack of contrition is being ignored as the Scottish football authorities unite to do what they feel is best for just one club.

We would hope that the European and global footballing authorities are watching these developments with interest and will move to censure the Scottish governing bodies.

Hibernian Football Club is our passion. We want to see a strong Hibs on the pitch and off the pitch. We want to see a sustainable Hibernian at the heart of our community.

22 years ago we united as fans to save Hibernian.

Today we find ourselves united in calling for Scottish football to end the current uncertainty, withdraw the the current campaign of bullying and threats aimed at our friends in the Scottish Football League and allow Rangers to rebuild their devastated club from the Third Division.

Fans of other clubs have been accused of “hating” Rangers.

We are defined not by hatred of any club but by our love of Hibernian.

A strong Hibernian in a strong Scottish game will forever be our one and only aim.

A few men motivated by greed and money currently risk that vision.

Fans of Hibernian and every other club cannot stand silently by and let that happen.

BIG G

[CropleyWasGod]

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I read it as if Dundee get promoted there will cease to be a member of the SFL and therefore a free space. The only way the SPL could avoid the situation, by that rule, is not to demote Dunfermline coa they're not a member currently.

But it's still not relevant to Sevco. If there is a vacancy in the SFL, they can only go into D3.

[marinello59]

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But it's still not relevant to Sevco. If there is a vacancy in the SFL, they can only go into D3.

her's a quote from Clyde FC's statement which was lauded on here as a pretty good summary of the situation. I have posted it up a couple of times but for some weird reason it is ignored.

"The rules do not state, nor imply, that they must join at the bottom tier, only custom and practice around good governance and integrity has seen teams join in the bottom tier.

[marinello59]

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In my opinion that has to be wrong, or this whole episode will have been a complete waste of time.

Letting whatever they are called back into the league in Div 1 would be a huge mistake, it would not give us enough time to restructure the leagues, and bring in changes that the game needs.

There needs to be enough time so as proper consultation has taken place, on every point of this, not something rushed in and perhaps overlooking or even missing important issues?

That ship has already sailed. Time has run out. I would consider Rangers in SFL1 if it genuinely was for the greater good. Like it or not they will be back and their massive fan base means they still have considerable power in the game. That's reality. What we are seeing happening though is something else entirely. Forcing the SFL clubs to leave the decision to faceless men in a darkened room dependant on some non-defined list of demands is simply wrong.Hopefully the SFl clubs will stand strong and prevent this stitch up from happening.

[CropleyWasGod]

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her's a quote from Clyde FC's statement which was lauded on here as a pretty good summary of the situation. I have posted it up a couple of times but for some weird reason it is ignored.

With respect to Clyde, they obviously haven't read the Rules. They are quite explicit, IMO.

[marinello59]

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With respect to Clyde, they obviously haven't read the Rules. They are quite explicit, IMO.

And with respect to everybody else, slipping on the dayglo jackets and jobsworth demeanour whilst demanding a strict adherance to the rules at a time of crisis helps nobody. We all seem to agree that our administrators have got things hopelessly wrong but the rules that they have lumbered us with seemingly should not be questioned.

[CropleyWasGod]

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And with respect to everybody else, slipping on the dayglo jackets and jobsworth demeanour whilst demanding a strict adherance to the rules at a time of crisis helps nobody. We all seem to agree that our administrators have got things hopelessly wrong but the rules that they have lumbered us with seemingly should not be questioned.

Not sure what you're getting at. If the SFL are trying to circumvent their own rules... whether they're sensible rules or not.... surely that is an issue that has to be addressed, no?

[marinello59]

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Not sure what you're getting at. If the SFL are trying to circumvent their own rules... whether they're sensible rules or not.... surely that is an issue that has to be addressed, no?

Of course you are right.
I am just so hacked off with the whole situation I wish we could just rip up the whole rule book and let common sense prevail. I am close to the point of not caring anymore beyond continuing to follow and support Hibs.