Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Caversham Green]

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Chris McLaughlin‏@BBCchrismclaug#SPL investigation into possible dual contracts at #Rangers to be put on hold until there's clarity over newco accountability. #BBCSport

We're all going to be long in our graves before this is resolved
Hopefully our great-grandchildren will keep the the thread alive until justice is served.

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Update on BBC blog by Chrismac - puts a different slant on things:

• 
  #SPL source: Part of newco application for membership could depend on them taking responsibility for possible past transgressions. #Rangers @BBCchrismclaug 32 minutes ago

Right, looking for a better slant on this. Newco are within their legal rights to shed all responsibilities attached to oldco and if they do the SPL is wasting time and resources investigating the matter since there would be no-one to punish. If they can first establish that newco will accept the responsibilities of oldco as a condition of application for SPL membership they can then continue with the investigation and punish newco if oldco is found guilty. If newco won't accept those responsibilities they should have no chance of SPL membership. As I've said several times previously a guilty verdict on this matter should result in nothing less than expulsion from Scottish football so newco may not accept the conditions.

[BarneyK]

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Right, looking for a better slant on this. Newco are within their legal rights to shed all responsibilities attached to oldco and if they do the SPL is wasting time and resources investigating the matter since there would be no-one to punish. If they can first establish that newco will accept the responsibilities of oldco as a condition of application for SPL membership they can then continue with the investigation and punish newco if oldco is found guilty. If newco won't accept those responsibilities they should have no chance of SPL membership. As I've said several times previously a guilty verdict on this matter should result in nothing less than expulsion from Scottish football so newco may not accept the conditions.

It absolutely has to be the primary condition on any application. The idea that The Rangers would be allowed to waive responsibility is frankly ludicrous. I'm sure they'll try, mind.

[Paisley Hibby]

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Update on BBC blog by Chrismac - puts a different slant on things:

• 
  
  #SPL source: Part of newco application for membership could depend on them taking responsibility for possible past transgressions. #Rangers @BBCchrismclaug 32 minutes ago
  
  
• 
  

If the source is right then this just shows that the SPL hasn't got a scooby about what it's doing. How can the Newco possibly agree to accept unknown punishments for something it has not been responsible for? The SPL sounds desperate to find a way they can keep the huns on board while having some kind of fig leaf that says they are being tough. They just need to man up and do the right thing.

[BarneyK]

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If the source is right then this just shows that the SPL hasn't got a scooby about what it's doing. How can the Newco possibly agree to accept unknown punishments for something it has not been responsible for? The SPL sounds desperate to find a way they can keep the huns on board while having some kind of fig leaf that says they are being tough. They just need to man up and do the right thing.

It doesn't mean that they have to accept the punishment, it just means that they have to acknowledge that they are still under investigation. In other words, they cannae turn round and say it wuznae is, it was that Davie Murray and Craigie Whyte that did it...we're a brand new company you see! If they get found guilty, They can be punished, whilst they retain the right to greet, moan, and appeal until someone finally listens.

[Caversham Green]

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It absolutely has to be the primary condition on any application. The idea that The Rangers would be allowed to waive responsibility is frankly ludicrous. I'm sure they'll try, mind.

I agree, but in strict legal terms they don't have to accept the burdens of the oldco - that's what the newco procedure is all about. We've already seen that this bunch of shysters aren't afraid to go to the civil courts after the event so the SPL needs to stitch up the responsibility tight right now. Remember, Rangers FC are already out of Europe for three, maybe four years now so they've got nothing to lose by playing silly buggers.

[BarneyK]

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I agree, but in strict legal terms they don't have to accept the burdens of the oldco - that's what the newco procedure is all about. We've already seen that this bunch of shysters aren't afraid to go to the civil courts after the event so the SPL needs to stitch up the responsibility tight right now. Remember, Rangers FC are already out of Europe for three, maybe four years now so they've got nothing to lose by playing silly buggers.

Aye well it's simple enough, no agreement - no vote. I cannae see them seriously failing to agree with this. It just makes the floating voters job easier come the SPL share vote.

[PatHead]

What I can't understand is that decision shouldn't affect newco/oldco sanctions and no reason to hold up their enquiry. Whether they can be imposed on newco is the question but surely the investigation can carry on regardless in order they can set a procedure in place for Hearts/Celtic. Whoever is next.

[Spike Mandela]

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Chris McLaughlin‏@BBCchrismclaug#SPL investigation into possible dual contracts at #Rangers to be put on hold until there's clarity over newco accountability. #BBCSport

We're all going to be long in our graves before this is resolved
Hopefully our great-grandchildren will keep the the thread alive until justice is served.

Basically they are making it up as they go along and if Doncaster gets his wish it will be business as usal for the SPL with no fuss. It is shameful and incompetent that the SFA and SPL don't have ready made rules in place for the eventuality of a newco. UEFA have had rules in place for years and the template should be a straightforward copy.

Abdication of their responsibilities.

[PatHead]

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I agree, but in strict legal terms they don't have to accept the burdens of the oldco - that's what the newco procedure is all about. We've already seen that this bunch of shysters aren't afraid to go to the civil courts after the event so the SPL needs to stitch up the responsibility tight right now. Remember, Rangers FC are already out of Europe for three, maybe four years now so they've got nothing to lose by playing silly buggers.

Rangers could also argue that if they accept the punishment then they should be entitled to their history back. We often say they can't pick and choose that they keep their history but don't accept punishment for Oldco. Suppose the reverse could be argued.

Only paying Devils advocate and these views do not represent my own.

[BarneyK]

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Rangers could also argue that if they accept the punishment then they should be entitled to their history back. We often say they can't pick and choose that they keep their history but don't accept punishment for Oldco. Suppose the reverse could be argued.

Only paying Devils advocate and these views do not represent my own.

To be honest I would say fair enough to that. Sod their history, no obligation to accept a Newco back into the SPL, off to an SFL application with them. For me, this would be enough of a punishment for the club.

[Offside Trap]

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What I can't understand is that decision shouldn't affect newco/oldco sanctions and no reason to hold up their enquiry. Whether they can be imposed on newco is the question but surely the investigation can carry on regardless in order they can set a procedure in place for Hearts/Celtic. Whoever is next.

Agreed. Complete abdication of responsibility from SPL/Doncaster. For the sake of sporting integrity (irrespective of whether related to NewCo or OldCo), the SPL should be establishing whether the rules were broken and have a duty to tell the fans of every other SPL club whether they have been getting shafted by Huns for years on end. Zero accountability, corporate governance or leadership being shown.

The only hope is that the SPL have taken this decision in the knowledge that the NewCo Huns are going to get punted anyway through SFA...so it is all academic.

[PatHead]

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To be honest I would say fair enough to that. Sod their history, no obligation to accept a Newco back into the SPL, off to an SFL application with them. For me, this would be enough of a punishment for the club.

Thats what should happen but this is Rangers we are talking about.

[Kaiser1962]

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I'm actually saying the opposite of that. The Estimated Outcome Statement shows very clearly that the property is not included in the sale to newco, but the document as a whole and subsequent comments by D&P and others give the impression that the property is included. If the EOS part is not a mistake then D&P have been working very hard to convince creditors that a CVA was the best possible outcome whilst not revealing the whole story - that the properties were not a part of the Newco settlement.

The EOS was the document that was lodged the Court of Session was it not? I would not imagine they would take kindly to an explanaton of "oops, what are we like! (while laughing out loudly)?

[CropleyWasGod]

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The EOS was the document that was lodged the Court of Session was it not? I would not imagine they would take kindly to an explanaton of "oops, what are we like! (while laughing out loudly)?

It was indeed.... the scamps.

[Alan62]

Oldco. Newco. Legal this, rulebook that. Accuse, appeal. Claim, counter claim. This is all going to rumble on for years. Meanwhile, we'll have a football competition to get started in August. For me, it's completely inconceivable that this will be anything like sorted by the first Saturday of the season.

[hibbyfrankie]

Taken from Rangers tax case so it isn't my writing, However i thought it quite interesting although i dont know the accuracy.

James Forrest says:
15/06/2012 at 4:07 pm

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From the very beginning of the process the people who have been trying to keep the name of Rangers alive have been arguing three things:
1) The company which owns the club dies, not the club itself.
2) Therefore the club maintains its history, its players, its management team, its stadium, its colours … all of it.
3) The transfer of the SPL share is between one corporate entity and another … not a share being granted to a wholly new footballing entity.
Today the SPL is consulting its legal department – and I would presume for the first time since all this started – to ask that legal department if Rangers 2012 is eligible for punishments due to Rangers 1872.
For the first time ever, the SPL appears to be trying to ascertain, legally, whether one really can adopt the identity of the other. It is clear to me that if they come back and say yes then Rangers 2012 retains the history of Rangers 1872, and thereby has to take on board whichever punishments are open to that club. This would allow the SPL to strip them of trophies, relegate them etc, in keeping with their constitution should Rangers 2012 be allowed in the league in the first place. It would also mean SFA punishments would fall on the club for the same reasons.
If however, as I expect, the SPL legal team tells the league that the club which was formed in 1872 has expired, then we are in a whole new arena friends.
First, the club which won 54 titles (some tainted) and has the two Buckfast bottles on the jersey in honour of their two European final riots, is no more. History, club, name, goodwill, all of it will be erased the second the liquidation is official, and all of it dies.
It means Charles Green yesterday bought a training ground, a football ground, a name, the rights to Ally McCoist and Lee McCulloch’s contracts and …. nothing else.
The arguments over whether or not the History of Rangers can continue will be over.
Charles Green today confirmed that as of this moment the club he owns is not a member of the SPL or SFA, which is the first acknowledgment from inside Rangers that they are not one in the same … and if you thought the above was good, this is where the fun REALLY starts ….
Neil Doncaster has maintained the reason the SPL vote can allow a new Rangers is because this is nothing more than a transfer of shareholding between one corporate entity and another. It is clear that this will not be the case; that vote will NOT be about a “transfer” of share between corporate bodies at all … it will be an “allocation of share” to a completely new football club, founded less than a month before.
There is NO precedent for this happening … anywhere.
Right now he claims it requires an 8 – 4 vote for this to be accepted. Yes, maybe, in the context of a share transfer between companies, but we are talking about something requiring a “qualified resolution” here, a brand new club being allowed into the top league without any history of playing football … and this requires an 11 – 1 vote.
You cannot be a bit dead, any more than you can be a bit pregnant – thanks Phil Mac Giolla Bhain of that the other day – you are either one or you are the other. The SPL’s decision to discontinue this investigation until the proper facts of what Rangers 2012 REALLY is cannot have come at a worse time for the club. They cannot have the history and escape the punishment. If they are not entitled to the punishment they are technically, legally, commercially and utterly DEAD, DEAD, DEAD and Dundee AUTOMATICALLY should have been granted the place in the SPL yesterday as, and CHarles Green has confirmed this today, that league now has only 11 teams left in it.
Yes, someone will say that OldCo Rangers still holds the license, and are therefore in the league. Take a look at he SPL, SFA, UEFA and FIFA licensing criteria for a moment before you take that position.
OldCo Rangers does not meet the criteria for corporate structure, staff, facilities or financial to get ANY level of license at all. It owns nothing. It employs no-one. It, therefore, is not eligible for any license at all …
Today the SPL is an 11 team league; FACT.
All that remains is the final clarification of that, which, thanks to Neil Doncaster, we will have soon.

[blackpoolhibs]

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Taken from Rangers tax case so it isn't my writing, However i thought it quite interesting although i dont know the accuracy.

James Forrest says:
15/06/2012 at 4:07 pm

82

1

Rate This

From the very beginning of the process the people who have been trying to keep the name of Rangers alive have been arguing three things:
1) The company which owns the club dies, not the club itself.
2) Therefore the club maintains its history, its players, its management team, its stadium, its colours … all of it.
3) The transfer of the SPL share is between one corporate entity and another … not a share being granted to a wholly new footballing entity.
Today the SPL is consulting its legal department – and I would presume for the first time since all this started – to ask that legal department if Rangers 2012 is eligible for punishments due to Rangers 1872.
For the first time ever, the SPL appears to be trying to ascertain, legally, whether one really can adopt the identity of the other. It is clear to me that if they come back and say yes then Rangers 2012 retains the history of Rangers 1872, and thereby has to take on board whichever punishments are open to that club. This would allow the SPL to strip them of trophies, relegate them etc, in keeping with their constitution should Rangers 2012 be allowed in the league in the first place. It would also mean SFA punishments would fall on the club for the same reasons.
If however, as I expect, the SPL legal team tells the league that the club which was formed in 1872 has expired, then we are in a whole new arena friends.
First, the club which won 54 titles (some tainted) and has the two Buckfast bottles on the jersey in honour of their two European final riots, is no more. History, club, name, goodwill, all of it will be erased the second the liquidation is official, and all of it dies.
It means Charles Green yesterday bought a training ground, a football ground, a name, the rights to Ally McCoist and Lee McCulloch’s contracts and …. nothing else.
The arguments over whether or not the History of Rangers can continue will be over.
Charles Green today confirmed that as of this moment the club he owns is not a member of the SPL or SFA, which is the first acknowledgment from inside Rangers that they are not one in the same … and if you thought the above was good, this is where the fun REALLY starts ….
Neil Doncaster has maintained the reason the SPL vote can allow a new Rangers is because this is nothing more than a transfer of shareholding between one corporate entity and another. It is clear that this will not be the case; that vote will NOT be about a “transfer” of share between corporate bodies at all … it will be an “allocation of share” to a completely new football club, founded less than a month before.
There is NO precedent for this happening … anywhere.
Right now he claims it requires an 8 – 4 vote for this to be accepted. Yes, maybe, in the context of a share transfer between companies, but we are talking about something requiring a “qualified resolution” here, a brand new club being allowed into the top league without any history of playing football … and this requires an 11 – 1 vote.
You cannot be a bit dead, any more than you can be a bit pregnant – thanks Phil Mac Giolla Bhain of that the other day – you are either one or you are the other. The SPL’s decision to discontinue this investigation until the proper facts of what Rangers 2012 REALLY is cannot have come at a worse time for the club. They cannot have the history and escape the punishment. If they are not entitled to the punishment they are technically, legally, commercially and utterly DEAD, DEAD, DEAD and Dundee AUTOMATICALLY should have been granted the place in the SPL yesterday as, and CHarles Green has confirmed this today, that league now has only 11 teams left in it.
Yes, someone will say that OldCo Rangers still holds the license, and are therefore in the league. Take a look at he SPL, SFA, UEFA and FIFA licensing criteria for a moment before you take that position.
OldCo Rangers does not meet the criteria for corporate structure, staff, facilities or financial to get ANY level of license at all. It owns nothing. It employs no-one. It, therefore, is not eligible for any license at all …
Today the SPL is an 11 team league; FACT.
All that remains is the final clarification of that, which, thanks to Neil Doncaster, we will have soon.

[Alan62]

Pretty much what I've been saying all along. They can't survive because they're already dead.

[Offside Trap]

News re SPL fixtures. Team X to be included. Surely Team Ex would have been better?

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/r...-fixture-list/

[hibs0666]

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News re SPL fixtures. Team X to be included. Surely Team Ex would have been better?

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/r...-fixture-list/

Team X is an anagram of Tax Me apparently.

[Paisley Hibby]

Here's what I think SHOULD happen

New Rangers application for place in SPL is rejected on grounds of sporting integrity and to act as a deterrent to other clubs trying to do the same in future.

SPL gives their place to Dunfermline (or maybe Dundee)

New Rangers apply for the vacant place in SFL Division 3

They almost certainly get accepted and start there as a completely new entity - with no history and no punishments

SPL continues its investigation of Old Rangers double contracts

SPL finds Old Rangers guilty and the record books are amended to strip Old Rangers of all titles that they won when cheating.

SFA and SFL use the findings from the SPL investigation to do the same regarding any Old Rangers Scottish Cup and League Cup wins during those seasons.

Simple.

[snooky]

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Team X is an anagram of Tax Me apparently.

.....or Tax? Em?

[greenlex]

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News re SPL fixtures. Team X to be included. Surely Team Ex would have been better?

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/r...-fixture-list/

I want to know what SKY are saying to this. I mean how can they arrange TV schedules not knowing what's going on. Disgraceful.

[HibeeDave]

The SPL are complete idiots.

If Rangers do not get into the SPL then Dundee get promoted.
Dundee and Dundee United in the same league will mean the season fixtures need to keep them opposite each other in terms of when Dundee are at home, United are away, the same rule happens to us and hertz and also Celtic and Rangers.
The SPL cannot simply put Team X in as it'll cause chaos if the wrong team turns out to be Team X.

Unless of course it's pre-determined.

[tamig]

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Team X is an anagram of Tax Me apparently.

And Charles Green is a Rangers Leech.

Apologies if already posted.

[Offside Trap]

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The SPL are complete idiots.

If Rangers do not get into the SPL then Dundee get promoted.
Dundee and Dundee United in the same league will mean the season fixtures need to keep them opposite each other in terms of when Dundee are at home, United are away, the same rule happens to us and hertz and also Celtic and Rangers.
The SPL cannot simply put Team X in as it'll cause chaos if the wrong team turns out to be Team X.

Unless of course it's pre-determined.

I would expect every time Team X are at home in the fixtures, both Celtic and Dundee United will be shown away from home. That way you can swap in either the Huns or Dundee for Team X.

[HibeeDave]

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I would expect every time Team X are at home in the fixtures, both Celtic and Dundee United will be shown away from home. That way you can swap in either the Huns or Dundee for Team X.

Pretty simple when explained like that

[Brando7]

Anyone know if Duff and Phelps submitted the overdue accounts in order to fulfill membership criteria for next season. was suppose to be today

[hibbyfrankie]

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Anyone know if Duff and Phelps submitted the overdue accounts in order to fulfill membership criteria for next season. was suppose to be today

Not really sure that it matters as rangers have sold the stadium and brand. They can no longer fulfill membership criteria and can no longer field a team for next year.

[Don Giovanni]

Question:

As RFC will soon cease to exist are the terms Old Firm / Auld Firm / OF / OFGTF (that yins my personal favourite by the way) now redundant?

And, what collective term should be used to describe Celtcfootballclub and THE Rangers FC?