Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[ehf]

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How can a clause in the CVA...a CVA that has now failed...be invoked to sell all the assets for £5.5m before the liquidators are appointed?

This seems like hot air and hubris and would almost certianly be challenged in court by the main creditors no?

Should the admins not now pass this to the liquidators as is and the liquidator will then pursue best value for the assets for the creditors...i.e effectively Rangers are now owned by their creditors and therefore all assets should be retained for their benefit. The common shareholder has been wiped out

What I don't understand is when this legally happens..when does the control/ownership move from the common shareholder to the liquidator/creditor? And I certainly don't understand why D&P and Green are in such an unholy rush to get the £5.5m deal completed...one final attmept to shaft every creditor one last time?

The legal position is that a liquidator cannot be appointed to Oldco until the administration process is finished: that will happen when D&P sell the assets to Green's Newco for £5.5m. At which point D&P trouser the dosh and exit tout suite. BDO are then appointed liquidators to Oldco (neither they, nor D&P have any status with Newco).

But (and it's a big but), BDO can challenge the Newco deal if they consider that it did not represent best value for the creditors. To my mind, it is virtually certain that they will do so. If they succeed, the deal is null and void, so the big question for D&P and (in particular) Green, is whether they are prepared to run that risk.

[Ross4356]

What do you think this will this cost Hibs per season?

[PatHead]

I have stated I would not go back to Easter Road if a newco Rangers go straight back into SPL. (I gave up my season 2 years ago before I slit my wrists watching Hibs). I have continued to go on an irregular basis.


However, if Rangers newco do not get elected into SPL I will buy a season ticket to support Hibs and the SPL for taking the moral integrity stance. Would anyone else do the same?


Would make a good poll if anyone can do it.

[johnrebus]

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Sorry if this has been asked/answered before, but i've seen a few rankgers fans complaining that the league structure was once changed to keep aberdeen in the spl years ago. Cant find any articles to back this statement up and maybe im too young to remember, was wondering if anybody is able to shed any light on this?

I think Falkirk won the First Division, but Brockville was not up to scratch for SPL - so Sheep stayed up......,

[ScottB]

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Sorry if this has been asked/answered before, but i've seen a few rankgers fans complaining that the league structure was once changed to keep aberdeen in the spl years ago. Cant find any articles to back this statement up and maybe im too young to remember, was wondering if anybody is able to shed any light on this?

The year we went from 10 to 12 teams the Dons finished bottom, but obviously there was no relegation. This wasn't done to save them.

In any case, Rangers haven't finished bottom, they've ceased to exist.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Reference how many payments they make, do business not just pay tax once a year or something?

[Andy74]

The SPL can't send them to Division 3, they can just refuse to have them in the SPL.

[Malthibby]

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My opinion is that the situation has got to a stage where it is getting almost impossible for clubs to be able to vote them in to the SPL due to the furious backlash from their own fans.

[Andy74]

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What do you think this will this cost Hibs per season?

It was worked oiut by one of the papers at around £150k per year I think. Other clubs had bigger projected shortfalls but nothing like the figures suggested by many.

It also ignored any uplift from more competitive games.

[jgl07]

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Sorry if this has been asked/answered before, but i've seen a few rankgers fans complaining that the league structure was once changed to keep aberdeen in the spl years ago. Cant find any articles to back this statement up and maybe im too young to remember, was wondering if anybody is able to shed any light on this?

The structure was not changed.

Aberdeen finished bottom in 2000.

The League was due to expand to 12 clubs. St Mirren and Dunfermline were promoted.

Aberdeen should have played off against Falkirk for an SPL place but Brockville was rejected as not meeting SPL requirements.

[Hovehibby]

does anyone know if they've set a date for the SPL vote yet?

[BarneyK]

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The SPL can't send them to Division 3, they can just refuse to have them in the SPL.

Indeed. The pressure to cancel their SPL license is growing though, what with their entry into liquidation, their Court of Session faux pas, their ongoing SPL double-contracts investigation, and not to mention their politically suicidal refusal to accept any form of real punishment.

[JimBHibees]

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The year we went from 10 to 12 teams the Dons finished bottom, but obviously there was no relegation. This wasn't done to save them.

In any case, Rangers haven't finished bottom, they've ceased to exist.

Not sure that is right it appears that there would have been a play off (like us v Airdrie) but Falkirk's ground kept them up.

This was from Wiki.

Aberdeen have finished bottom of the league on two occasions, 1916-17 and 1999-2000. They were spared relegation in 1917 after having to withdraw from the league because of World War I. In 2000, they avoided a play-off against the second and third place teams in the First Division because Falkirk's ground did not comply with SPL regulations.[2]

[StevieC]

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Sorry if this has been asked/answered before, but i've seen a few rankgers fans complaining that the league structure was once changed to keep aberdeen in the spl years ago. Cant find any articles to back this statement up and maybe im too young to remember, was wondering if anybody is able to shed any light on this?

There was a change to the structure and (a relegated) Aberdeen got lucky.

It wasn't changed to benefit Aberdeen .. therein lies the difference.

[down-the-slope]

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Reference how many payments they make, do business not just pay tax once a year or something?

Nope..can vary PAYE mostly monthly and VAT Quarterly...but it depends on turn over...and can be different cycles than this.

Too much of a risk for HMRC (to say nothing of cash flow for goverment) to wait a year for these types of revenue..

Corporation Tax more normally annually (you need to know profit before Tax can be calculated)

[Twiglet]

Apologies if this has been asked and answered already, but how many clubs have to vote in favour of a newco rangers being admitted into the spl?

[iwasthere1972]

Andy Goram on SSN saying be careful what you wish for. I say vote them out and don't be blackmailed.

We can live without the huns.

[Liberal Hibby]

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The SPL can't send them to Division 3, they can just refuse to have them in the SPL.

Agreed - but one assumes they (and their bosses at the SFA) could also add some 'friendly advice' to the SFL about newco Rangers being back in the Scottish league structure as a benefit to Scottish football as a whole.

[jgl07]

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Apologies if this has been asked and answered already, but how many clubs have to vote in favour of a newco rangers being admitted into the spl?

I believe that an 8-4 majority is needed.

Rangers will not be able to vote so 4 clubs should be able to block a share transfer.

Aberdeen, Hibs, Celtic(?), and one other.

[iwasthere1972]

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Apologies if this has been asked and answered already, but how many clubs have to vote in favour of a newco rangers being admitted into the spl?

8 I think.

[JimBHibees]

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There was a change to the structure and (a relegated) Aberdeen got lucky.

It wasn't changed to benefit Aberdeen .. therein lies the difference.

Nope they were due to play in a play off to avoid relegation but Faklkirk's ground problem meant they stayed up.

[down-the-slope]

Rangers plight and attitute reminds me of the Black Knight....watch as they claim...

'Tis But a Scratch'...'Its only a Flesh wound'

[c31]

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I believe that an 8-4 majority is needed.

Rangers will not be able to vote so 4 clubs should be able to block a share transfer.

Aberdeen, Hibs, Celtic(?), and one other.

St. Mirren are a cert after they tried to take them over, their chairman Stewart Gilmour has already voiced his anger at the goings on along the road from them.

[GreenPJ]

I presume that even if they had more money there is neither the time or the HMRC position that would allow Kennedy and Murray back into play?

[Caversham Green]

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Okay, after a wee walk at lunchtime, this is the way I now see things happening.

Cav, you are right about the properties not being sold to NewCo. Green has the club, its soul if you like, for £5.5m. That's not a bad price, no matter what league they are in next season. In the SPL, it's a steal, in the SFL it's more of a medium-term payback.

The properties stay in OldCo. Their proceeds, plus the £5.5m, will be used to pay creditors. They will probably get more than they would have under the CVA, so they're better off.

Green knows that there is a limited market for Ibrox, given the listed status of the frontage. He, through another company, (or perhaps someone else that he has already lined up) will buy Ibrox and rent it to NewCo.... hence his "solemn promise" today.

Have I missed anything?

This was how I read Wild Bill Pickup's incubator plan. Oldco would rent the properties to Newco and the money would be used to reduce Oldco's debts until such time as a CVA could be achieved and then the two would merge.

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It doesn't exclude them either. I think the difference in price was purely due to the facts that newco will be excluded from Europe for three years and possibly kicked out of the SPL.

The bit that I can't make my mind up about though, is that £5.5m is ridiculously low for properties like Ibrox and Murray Park plus players' registrations, stock, fixtures and fittings and effectively the business of Rangers FC without any debts. Take out the properties and it becomes more realistic (although still quite cheap IMO). On the other hand, the implication within the CVA proposal - apart from the bit I'm referring to - is that the properties are included, and the liquidation scenario produces only £4.6m - again, ridculously low, but that values goodwill, players registrations etc at only £900k. Neither option makes complete sense to me unless the porperties really have already been salted away into separate ownership....

[jgl07]

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I presume that even if they had more money there is neither the time or the HMRC position that would allow Kennedy and Murray back into play?

I think that Murray was a time waster with no cash and Kennedy, as usual, was seeking attention.

[Dashing Bob S]

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The SPL can't send them to Division 3, they can just refuse to have them in the SPL.

If they refused them entry into the SPL, Scottish football would be cutting its own throat, as a newco Rangers would simply go into the English Premiership, which has been their intention for some time.

[MWHIBBIES]

Colin Hendry on SSN saying that Scottish football is Rangers and Celtic

Ignorant prick

[Hovehibby]

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St. Mirren are a cert after they tried to take them over, their chairman Stewart Gilmour has already voiced his anger at the goings on along the road from them.

Interesting views last week from Stephen Thomson. Could add Dundee Utd to the list

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18365480

[Andy74]

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This was how I read Wild Bill Pickup's incubator plan. Oldco would rent the properties to Newco and the money would be used to reduce Oldco's debts until such time as a CVA could be achieved and then the two would merge.



The bit that I can't make my mind up about though, is that £5.5m is ridiculously low for properties like Ibrox and Murray Park plus players' registrations, stock, fixtures and fittings and effectively the business of Rangers FC without any debts. Take out the properties and it becomes more realistic (although still quite cheap IMO). On the other hand, the implication within the CVA proposal - apart from the bit I'm referring to - is that the properties are included, and the liquidation scenario produces only £4.6m - again, ridculously low, but that values goodwill, players registrations etc at only £900k. Neither option makes complete sense to me unless the porperties really have already been salted away into separate ownership....

So he could sell Naismith and McGregor for example and make his money back immediately and own a debt free Rangers, a stadium and a training centre for nowt.

Seems a bit strange to me.