Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Suburban Hibby]

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Difficult to say without knowing the full details of the proposal, but I can't see how '£8.5m less administrators fees plus potential salesof what's left after the big earners have walked as a result of their wage reduction agreements' is anything other than insulting to the holders of at least £55m of debts. Particularly when the potential buyer is issuing a brochure that boasts of £113m worth of property - http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/footbal...6908-23877576/

Am I just niave in thinking if they boast of 113 million of property the creditors could just tell them to raffle their CVA, let it be liquidated and then the property assets sold off to ensure a larger % of payout?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Am I just niave in thinking if they boast of 113 million of property the creditors could just tell them to raffle their CVA, let it be liquidated and then the property assets sold off to ensure a larger % of payout?

Not naive at all.

The creditors do have a bit of a dilemma. Accept a certainty of £x now, or wait for liquidation and maybe get a better deal then. There has been much talk on here of the saleability of the properties, which I won't regurgitate.... but there is no certainty of getting anywhere near £113m for them.

That said, if I was a creditor, I'd be pretty p'd off about the apparent dismissiveness of my position.

[green glory]

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Not naive at all.

The creditors do have a bit of a dilemma. Accept a certainty of £x now, or wait for liquidation and maybe get a better deal then. There has been much talk on here of the saleability of the properties, which I won't regurgitate.... but there is no certainty of getting anywhere near £113m for them.

That said, if I was a creditor, I'd be pretty p'd off about the apparent dismissiveness of my position.

Maybe no certainty about getting near £113m, but whatever Ibroke, Murray Park and any other assets are sold for, it would surely be worth more that the paltry amount being offered via the CVA? With much of the CVA being dependant on the court cases whose outcome can only be speculated upon, surely the creditors getting their hands on the assets provides the safest bet?

[johnrebus]

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Not naive at all.

The creditors do have a bit of a dilemma. Accept a certainty of £x now, or wait for liquidation and maybe get a better deal then. There has been much talk on here of the saleability of the properties, which I won't regurgitate.... but there is no certainty of getting anywhere near £113m for them.

That said, if I was a creditor, I'd be pretty p'd off about the apparent dismissiveness of my position.

With these, 'main assets', being Ibrox and Murray Park, who is going to buy them anyway?

At the very least Ally McCoist will want the names and address of all concerned to feed to the bears.

£113m my arse..........,

[CropleyWasGod]

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Maybe no certainty about getting near £113m, but whatever Ibroke, Murray Park and any other assets are sold for, it would surely be worth more that the paltry amount being offered via the CVA? With much of the CVA being dependant on the court cases whose outcome can only be speculated upon, surely the creditors getting their hands on the assets provides the safest bet?

One might think so, but go back and read the many, many posts about the asset values. Wherever they are

[CallumLaidlaw]

Interesting about future player sales and the CVA

@mikefstv The majority of James McFadden's sell on fee from Everton to Birmingham went to creditors 4 years after exiting administration!

[ancienthibby]

Have not seen this posted earlier (apologies, if so)

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/...n-tax.17704904

Unbelievable stuff!

[Gingertosser]

CWG,

Your probably best suited to answer my query !!

I'm a little confused as to where the BTC sits with this CVA arrangement.
My thinking is that it isn't part of it yet so HMRC are only agreeing to p/£ for the £15m, is this correct.

If they were to accept this and Rangers remained the same company could they then hit them with the BTC when it is announced from the courts, and potentially become 100% creditors, giving them more options on the outcome of any future administration.

[CropleyWasGod]

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CWG,

Your probably best suited to answer my query !!

I'm a little confused as to where the BTC sits with this CVA arrangement.
My thinking is that it isn't part of it yet so HMRC are only agreeing to p/£ for the £15m, is this correct.

If they were to accept this and Rangers remained the same company could they then hit them with the BTC when it is announced from the courts, and potentially become 100% creditors, giving them more options on the outcome of any future administration.

The claim under the BTC ...£75m or whatever it is... is part of the debt that the CVA is being calculated on. So, the initial payout in any CVA would be on the assumption that RFC lose the case.

eg for ease of calculation. £170m debt, including the BTC, with a CVA pot of £8.5m. That means 5p in the £

If RFC win the case, the debt would then be £95m. The pay-out would be 8.9p, so the creditors would get an additional 3.9p.

[Caversham Green]

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Have not seen this posted earlier (apologies, if so)

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/...n-tax.17704904

Unbelievable stuff!

It was posted earlier, but here's what the Random thoughts felly has to say about it.

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.co...a-smoking-gun/

Pretty much what I said, but a bit more wordy .

[Saorsa]

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The claim under the BTC ...£75m or whatever it is... is part of the debt that the CVA is being calculated on. So, the initial payout in any CVA would be on the assumption that RFC lose the case.

eg for ease of calculation. £170m debt, including the BTC, with a CVA pot of £8.5m. That means 5p in the £

If RFC win the case, the debt would then be £95m. The pay-out would be 8.9p, so the creditors would get an additional 3.9p.

Any idea just when is that likely tae be decided, it has been dragging on for ages.

[Peevemor]

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Have not seen this posted earlier (apologies, if so)

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/...n-tax.17704904

Unbelievable stuff!

Is he really that thick? Dodds was due a certain sum after tax (which will be written somewhere in his contract). The huns payed him this sum via the EBT, thus avoiding paying the tax. This is exactly the sort of statement that HMRC's legal people want to hear.

Just because your employer deducts your PAYE & NIC, it doesn't mean it's been paid.

As for the Yorkston comments, if the huns had paid on time then Dunfermline might have been able to pay McIntyre before now. It's not rocket science.

[Caversham Green]

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The claim under the BTC ...£75m or whatever it is... is part of the debt that the CVA is being calculated on. So, the initial payout in any CVA would be on the assumption that RFC lose the case.

eg for ease of calculation. £170m debt, including the BTC, with a CVA pot of £8.5m. That means 5p in the £

If RFC win the case, the debt would then be £95m. The pay-out would be 8.9p, so the creditors would get an additional 3.9p.

Except that there's a few million administrator's fees to come off first.....

[ancienthibby]

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It was posted earlier, but here's what the Random thoughts felly has to say about it.

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.co...a-smoking-gun/

Pretty much what I said, but a bit more wordy .

Many thanks, CavG!

[poolman]

Apologies if posted already


http://skynews.skypressoffice.co.uk/...full-interview


Bragging that the Huns won 35 trophies or so during his time

[hibsbollah]

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Apologies if posted already


http://skynews.skypressoffice.co.uk/...full-interview


Bragging that the Huns won 35 trophies or so during his time

Jeff Randall is a big Rangers fan. Hence thats about as interrogative as a sit on Richard and Judys couch.

[Killiehibbie]

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Am I just niave in thinking if they boast of 113 million of property the creditors could just tell them to raffle their CVA, let it be liquidated and then the property assets sold off to ensure a larger % of payout?

If I was a creditor I think i'd take my chance of getting a bit more than the 5 or 10% being offered now when assets are auctioned off.

[Spike Mandela]

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Maybe no certainty about getting near £113m, but whatever Ibroke, Murray Park and any other assets are sold for, it would surely be worth more that the paltry amount being offered via the CVA? With much of the CVA being dependant on the court cases whose outcome can only be speculated upon, surely the creditors getting their hands on the assets provides the safest bet?

Is this not where the administrators blackmail to the creditors comes in.

They would sell the aforementioned assets to Green at a knockdown price and into a Bill Miller style incubator company pre liquidation and the creditors get diddly squat. This is the action that troubles me most as the administrators are clearly in this case working to get the best deal for Rangers and not the creditors. If selling £113m pounds worth of assets for around £5.5m is the best deal for the creditors I would be astonished. You could get more for the scrap metal demolishing Ibrox.

They have the creditors over a barrel imo.

[BEEJ]

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With these, 'main assets', being Ibrox and Murray Park, who is going to buy them anyway?

At the very least Ally McCoist will want the names and address of all concerned to feed to the bears.

£113m my arse..........,

Regardless of their value, it should not be possible for these assets to be transferred into a newco as is being suggested in some circles will happen. (Realise that this will have been discussed in great detail earlier on this thread, but I only drop in on this subject about once a month. )

Meanwhile this quote from Duff & Phelps:

"It represents the best deal for HMRC and the other creditors, and while it might mean there's some monies written off by the taxman, it's the best prospect of a recovery, and therefore we very much hope and believe that HMRC will see the same viewpoint."

already wins the 2012 PR Award for Massive Understatement!

[ballengeich]

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I doubt it, and that's something the creditors will have to bear in mind.

It's possible that there could be an undertaking to transfer list some players as part of the proposal but if no-one wants to buy them there's probably not much the creditors can do.

I think the reference to transfer money going into the cva refers to outstanding instalments due on previous transfers (e.g. Jelavic) and not to any potential future deals.

[lapsedhibee]

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If I was a creditor I think i'd take my chance of getting a bit more than the 5 or 10% being offered now when assets are auctioned off.

Thing is though, with the McCoist precedent of encouraging violence towards anyone who doesn't kow-tow, won't the creditors have to be factoring in the cost of replacing tanned windows etc if they don't comply with the CVA proposal?

And why has McCoist STILL not been charged for that?

[jgl07]

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With these, 'main assets', being Ibrox and Murray Park, who is going to buy them anyway?

At the very least Ally McCoist will want the names and address of all concerned to feed to the bears.

£113m my arse..........,

Indeed.

But is does not mean they have zero value.

On the assumption that there is likely to be a Newco (playing initially in the SFA), it might seem a fair deal to buy the stadium and then lease it back to the Newco at some future time. This has happened several times in England including Leeds United.

There is land around the stadium as well although I understand that it cannot be developed for some years.

[green glory]

Cara Sulieman tweeting from the Court of Session.

https://twitter.com/carasulieman/sta...42122444517376

I'm actually hoping Rangers overturn the transfer ban, as the SFA would have to expel them according to Fifa rules.

[johnrebus]

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Cara Sulieman tweeting from the Court of Session.

https://twitter.com/carasulieman/sta...42122444517376

I'm actually hoping Rangers overturn the transfer ban, as the SFA would have to expel them according to Fifa rules.

One of the newspapers reported yesterday that Duff & Duffer claimed they were not aware of the Uefa/Fifa rule thingy.........,


I really do feel so sorry for the true, honest and decent Rangers fans.......,
















But then remembered that I've never met one.

[green glory]

http://www.rangers.co.uk/staticFiles...~177097,00.pdf

[CropleyWasGod]

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http://www.rangers.co.uk/staticFiles...~177097,00.pdf

Thanks for that.... I may read it later.

This bit stands out for me, though:-

The quantum of the Dividend is currently unknown, pending determination of the CVA Trading Costs, High Court Proceedings and the EBT Case, amongst other things.

That's helpful

[Spike Mandela]

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http://www.rangers.co.uk/staticFiles...~177097,00.pdf

That didn't take long to get in public domain

[Suburban Hibby]

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Thanks for that.... I may read it later.

This bit stands out for me, though:-

The quantum of the Dividend is currently unknown, pending determination of the CVA Trading Costs, High Court Proceedings and the EBT Case, amongst other things.

That's helpful

thought exactly the same - 60 pages and no indictaion of how much they will pay- how do they expect anyone to make a decision on that?

[jgl07]

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Thanks for that.... I may read it later.

This bit stands out for me, though:-

The quantum of the Dividend is currently unknown, pending determination of the CVA Trading Costs, High Court Proceedings and the EBT Case, amongst other things.

How can anyone be expected to sign up without having a clue as to exactly what they expect to receive?

[CropleyWasGod]

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How can anyone be expected to sign up without having a clue as to exactly what they expect to receive?

Indeed.

Although we may set up a wee advice shop on Hibs.Net.

Pay us the quantum of £50 a skull, and we'll give you our best advice. (dinny freaking dae it!!)