Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Spike Mandela]

BBC tweeting that SPL have set deadline for administrators providing info on possible double contract situation.

**** me this suggests to me SPL lagging a bit behind with investigation. Surprise, surprise.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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BBC tweeting that SPL have set deadline for administrators providing info on possible double contract situation.

**** me this suggests to me SPL lagging a bit behind with investigation. Surprise, surprise.

Looks like last night's show has already had a positive effect (kicking the SPL up the bum).

[Lucius Apuleius]

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No. As BB says, any mismanagement of an employee tax situation is entirely the fault of the employer, unless it can be proved that there was collusion with the employees. (over to you, Thommo? )

But surely the employee is remiss when he files his tax return if he does not disclose it?

[lapsedhibee]

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But surely the employee is remiss when he files his tax return if he does not disclose it?

Don't have to disclose loans - only income.

[silverhibee]

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It's not really "double tax", but "double contracts". The allegation is that RFC employed players on two contracts. One was "normal", and subject to PAYE, and disclosed to the SFA/SPL. The other related to contributions to a Trust, from which the players could draw loans, which were not repayable. In the second case, no tax was paid by anyone, and the contracts were allegedly not registered with the SFA etc.

So, it's a double-whammy in terms of bad behaviour. Underpayment of tax, and non-disclosure of the contracts.

As i said i know nothing about all this tax stuff, what i do know is that the tax man has started to turn there attention towards football players from Scotland who were with the hvns about un-paid taxes that have not been declared to HMRC.

That's why i asked about the double tax thing.

It's all a bit baffling to me all this stuff.

[Moulin Yarns]

Has anybody else noticed the big name that isn't on the list of EBT beneficiaries???


Uncle Walter appears to be squeeky clean.

[TrinityHibs]

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Has anybody else noticed the big name that isn't on the list of EBT beneficiaries???


Uncle Walter appears to be squeeky clean.

Swally, Hateley and Kenny Miller are missing as well

[stokesmessiah]

No date given for deadline, but I'm told next couple of weeks could be crucial. If #Rangers don't comply, sanctions could follow. @BBCchrismclaug 19 minutes ago

BBC Scotland has learned the #SPL has set a deadline for #Rangers administrators to provide info they need on possible dual contracts. @BBCchrismclaug 20 minutes ago

[The Falcon]

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But surely the employee is remiss when he files his tax return if he does not disclose it?

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Don't have to disclose loans - only income.

I tend to lake Lucius's view here. I suspect that if the term "loan" in this particular case is subject to even the basic form of legal scrutiny then it would be found to be inaccurate and out of context. Whoever heard of a "loan" that didnt have to be repaid? It is either reimbursement or a gift but it most certainly is not a loan.

[green glory]

Does anyone have a link to the list of EBT benificiaries?

[cabbageandribs1875]

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Does anyone have a link to the list of EBT benificiaries?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-18148818


prepare to be shocked when you see what barry ferguson got

[CropleyWasGod]

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I tend to lake Lucius's view here. I suspect that if the term "loan" in this particular case is subject to even the basic form of legal scrutiny then it would be found to be inaccurate and out of context. Whoever heard of a "loan" that didnt have to be repaid? It is either reimbursement or a gift but it most certainly is not a loan.

The basic principle in HMRC's view is that it is almost always the fault of the employer if an employee tax scheme is not operated properly. Fair or otherwise, that's the way they have worked for a long time.

It would be a major surprise if they went back on that now. That said, it would be supported by most, on the basis of morality at least.

[JeMeSouviens]

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But surely the employee is remiss when he files his tax return if he does not disclose it?

If his employer and/or tax advisor has told him it's not taxable income he wouldn't disclose it.

[The Falcon]

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-18148818


prepare to be shocked when you see what barry ferguson got

Aye. They all love the club. So they do.

[Paisley Hibby]

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-18148818


prepare to be shocked when you see what barry ferguson got

I see nid is on the list

[green glory]

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-18148818

prepare to be shocked when you see what barry ferguson got

Cheers.

[johnbc70]

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-18148818


prepare to be shocked when you see what barry ferguson got

That 30K to Souness looks very suspicious when you consider it was about the time he paid £2M to take Tugay from the Huns to Blackburn. Wonder if it was in a brown paper bag?

[JeMeSouviens]

Couple of things to clarify:

EBTs were until 2010 a legitimate (if morally dubious) tax avoidance scheme. The key, however, is that the payments were made on a discretionary basis, not contractual and were not made as compensation for duties normally carried out in the course of someone's employment.

So, if I own a successful business and have a load of cash in the bank and decide to benevolently be nice to all my staff by paying £100K into their trusts, that's fine. If I agree with them to give them half their wages that way, that's not fine. In the Huns' case, the £6M to Dodgy Dave and some of the other payments to directors are possibly ok. The payments to players and managers are more than likely not.

The side letters are evidence of guilt but are not a pre-requisite for guilt. If the Huns have 50 players all getting dodgy payments through an EBT but HMRC can only find side letters for 40 of them, the tribunal can still infer that the other 10 were also getting the dosh on a dodgy basis and find the Huns liable for the tax on all 50. Even if there were no side letters but there was other evidence (witnesses, internal emails etc) they could still be found liable.

Similarly, the SPL/SFA rules forbid payments to players for playing made in addition to what's in their registered contract. They don't have to have had a 2nd contract, although obviously that does provide evidence that such payments took place.

[green glory]

http://t.co/1NBtSW3b

[Beefster]

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No date given for deadline, but I'm told next couple of weeks could be crucial. If #Rangers don't comply, sanctions could follow. @BBCchrismclaug 19 minutes ago

BBC Scotland has learned the #SPL has set a deadline for #Rangers administrators to provide info they need on possible dual contracts. @BBCchrismclaug 20 minutes ago

If I was a cynical man, I'd think the SPL has only moved to do this because the BBC has shown them up.

[CropleyWasGod]

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If I was a cynical man, I'd think the SPL has only moved to do this because the BBC has shown them up.

Or, the deadline was set some time ago, and CM is reporting their response to such a question.

[lapsedhibee]

Might have missed the answer to this, but I think I read today that the SPL have given D&D a deadline for providing information about player contracts/EBTs. Does this mean that the SPL hadn't even begun investigating the issue until Daly's piece yesterday? Think we had suggestions on here weeks ago that the SPL might be holding back on going public with the results of their EBT investigations until Hector's BTC verdict came out, but can it really be that they had done absolutely nothing all this time? Staggering (or not) if so.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Might have missed the answer to this, but I think I read today that the SPL have given D&D a deadline for providing information about player contracts/EBTs. Does this mean that the SPL hadn't even begun investigating the issue until Daly's piece yesterday? Think we had suggestions on here weeks ago that the SPL might be holding back on going public with the results of their EBT investigations until Hector's BTC verdict came out, but can it really be that they had done absolutely nothing all this time? Staggering (or not) if so.

They must have started the investigation if they asked D&P for the information.

As the BBC report says, A request was made by the SPL in March and BBC Scotland has learned they are still awaiting information from the club's administrator Duff & Phelps.

[lapsedhibee]

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They must have started the investigation if they asked D&P for the information.

As the BBC report says, A request was made by the SPL in March and BBC Scotland has learned they are still awaiting information from the club's administrator Duff & Phelps.

Ah right, ta - they asked for information in March. And two months later there's an unspecified deadline for it to be produced. Still shocking imo!

[CropleyWasGod]

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Ah right - they asked for information in March. And two months later there's an unspecified deadline for it to be produced. Still shocking imo!

On whose part, though? I would suggest D & P, in that they haven't responded, apparently.

We don't know how many reminders have been sent, or whether the deadline was set a while back.

[calmac12000]

What are the chances of an unequivocal statement from the Scottish footballing authorities confirming that they do not approve of cheating, lying and tax evasion? After all, at the end of the day Doncaster appears to be condoning these behaviours as the lesser of two evils. The other being for Rangers and their many apologists, being that Rangers, in the unlikely event of them surviving next season are dealt with fairly, without fear or favour. The cynic in me tells me that the powers that be will sugar coat and obfuscate any proposal to the extent that any action they take will be completely self serving.
:pfgwa:pfgwa:pfgwa

[calmac12000]

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Ah right, ta - they asked for information in March. And two months later there's an unspecified deadline for it to be produced. Still shocking imo!

Surely any competent regulatory authority would specify exactly when a reply is required?

[JimBHibees]

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They must have started the investigation if they asked D&P for the information.

As the BBC report says, A request was made by the SPL in March and BBC Scotland has learned they are still awaiting information from the club's administrator Duff & Phelps.

Just not been very vigorous in following it up.

[PatHead]

Can't believe Regan hasn't taken the time to watch the programme. If I was aware of a high ranking member of my organisation having been on TV the night before I would want to see it.

[Spike Mandela]

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Just not been very vigorous in following it up.

Does anybody really believe that the SPL are willing or capable of a thorough investigation into this matter? What are the chances of any damning documentation not being shredded by now. Doncaster has made it clear he wants Rangers in the SPL at all costs so it's unlikely that he would push an investigation to find evidence which would preclude their possible membership.