Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[Peevemor]

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Huns were more than happy to lord it over everyone. Don't want to do the time? Don't do the crime. To compare systematic cheating over a prolonged period with the incompetence of Duff & Gray is laughable.

Exactly. Shyster no. 1 in our affair was David Rowland who simply wanted to sell the assets - football wasn't even a consideration. Rangers, on the other hand, have cheated to attract the best possible players to the club (often to the detriment of other Scottish teams) - their recent domestic and European "success" has extremely dodgy foundations.

[Lucius Apuleius]

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Fair play to you for giving a view at odd with the majority on here.
The more we hear about what went on at Rangers the angrier I get. Last nights programme laid waste to the 'Craig Whyte did it and ran away' argument. Murray is as big a shyster as Whyte. The removal of SPL status and titles won during their years of cheating should be the minimum punishment.

I tended to have a little sympathy with Flash's view up until previous, what I thought were decent Rangers supporters way above the usual sectarian crap, posted on my son's FB before the final that we were just mini Tims and they hoped we get humped. Said decent huns have now received emails from me telling them that I hope their club just dies.

[erskine-hibby]

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Fair play to you for giving a view at odd with the majority on here.
The more we hear about what went on at Rangers the angrier I get. Last nights programme laid waste to the 'Craig Whyte did it and ran away' argument. Murray is as big a shyster as Whyte. The removal of SPL status and titles won during their years of cheating should be the minimum punishment.

This , plus they chased the big money from Europe to help fund this...it didn't work. They were willing to shaft every other club in the SPL, along with their cousins in the east end, by trying to join the EPL/ atlantic league, or any other league they could possibly get in bar Scotland and their fans backed them all the way. So i'm sorry if I can't feel anything for them or their fans except contempt.

[flash]

Cheers for the replies- i agree with the gist of them.
I suppose what i am trying to say is rather than risk losing thousands of fans to the game at a particularly bad time i would much rather see those directly responsible held to account in a court of law.
There is no doubt that a newco should have to start from the bottom.
As ever though the fans will be the ones who suffer most.

[H18sry]

George Adams, previous head of youth development at Ibrox, received a little over £30,000 through his EBT. Many of you may not have heard of this man (after all, he is hardly a household name), however, Mr Adams is the director of football at newly promoted Ross County, one of the teams who would theoretically have a vote in any decision to allow (or not allow) any NewCo Rangers back into the SPL. This is a conflict of interest.

[blackpoolhibs]

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Unfashionable as it is i feel sorry for the Rangers fans. I remember when we were shafted by a similar group of corrupt shysters and it's a horrible feeling.

The vast majority of punters at Ibrox are just normal guys who love their fitba albeit with a dodgy songbook thrown in.

I actually find the lust for blood amongst fans of other clubs, including ours, slightly distasteful and am thankful we didn't have to suffer anything like the same degree of scorn and vindictiveness back in the dark days of Duff, Gray Rowland et al.

I understand what you are saying, but there's one question you should ask every hun you know. And thats would you change all that glory, and quality signings they made if you knew what was going to happen now?

Each and every hun i know has said no, they wouldn't change a thing. These were the best days of their lives supporting them they tell me.

Well they need that balanced out now imo, and perhaps their opinion might be different the next time?

[down-the-slope]

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George Adams, previous head of youth development at Ibrox, received a little over £30,000 through his EBT. Many of you may not have heard of this man (after all, he is hardly a household name), however, Mr Adams is the director of football at newly promoted Ross County, one of the teams who would theoretically have a vote in any decision to allow (or not allow) any NewCo Rangers back into the SPL. This is a conflict of interest.

Yup....but compared to Campbell O who is head honcho at SFA who will be appeals body should SPL find against Rangers in 'double contracts'.....that is almost irrelevent.


There is going to be a lot more of this to come

07-minister.jpg


Any photo shop experts stick Doncasters head on this

[Hibrandenburg]

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This , plus they chased the big money from Europe to help fund this...it didn't work. They were willing to shaft every other club in the SPL, along with their cousins in the east end, by trying to join the EPL/ atlantic league, or any other league they could possibly get in bar Scotland and their fans backed them all the way. So i'm sorry if I can't feel anything for them or their fans except contempt.

This! They were more than happy to enjoy the good times, no questions asked. Payback!

[HFC 0-7]

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Fair play to you for giving a view at odd with the majority on here.
The more we hear about what went on at Rangers the angrier I get. Last nights programme laid waste to the 'Craig Whyte did it and ran away' argument. Murray is as big a shyster as Whyte. The removal of SPL status and titles won during their years of cheating should be the minimum punishment.

I can see them getting punished, but I still think they will get away with it. The SPL seem to be taking their time with the investigation. IMO, I think it will be concluded shortly after Ranges have reformed as a Newco and therefore the SPL will take the stance of, 'they are a new company now and by law we cant punish them for something another company has done'. Rangers continue in the SPL.

If the SPL concluded their investigation now, and handed out the punishment and demoted them to division 3, the newco would have to start there. Doncaster is pushing this Newco being allowed straight back in. The SPL will say at the end of all this that they would have punished Old Rangers severely but their hands were tied as its now a different company.

[WindyMiller]

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I can see them getting punished, but I still think they will get away with it. The SPL seem to be taking their time with the investigation. IMO, I think it will be concluded shortly after Ranges have reformed as a Newco and therefore the SPL will take the stance of, 'they are a new company now and by law we cant punish them for something another company has done'. Rangers continue in the SPL.

If the SPL concluded their investigation now, and handed out the punishment and demoted them to division 3, the newco would have to start there. Doncaster is pushing this Newco being allowed straight back in. The SPL will say at the end of all this that they would have punished Old Rangers severely but their hands were tied as its now a different company.

These EBT's have broken the SFA rules and the club should have it's membership withdrawn.

Takes the decision out of the SPL's hands.

If they're such a big club they can reform in the Juniors and work their way up.

[D7 Bohs]

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Gary Numan ? Think your already beyond help tbh.

Difficult choice - Tubeway Army or (Down the) Tube(s)way Army?

[StevieC]

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Yup....but compared to Campbell O who is head honcho at SFA who will be appeals body should SPL find against Rangers in 'double contracts'.....that is almost irrelevent.

Ogilvie should resign .. and if not he should be TOLD to step down.

Remember that Ogilvie also took this EBT scheme to Hearts when he left Rangers, so to say he knew nothing about players and side contracts must prove him to be an out and out liar.

[Kaiser1962]

An Observation;

Given that Celtic have now admitted that they used an EBT will those that are defending Rangers (SPL, Sportsound et al) use this to try to drag Celtic into this mess and argue that the quantity dosent matter but the fact that they did it should attract the same punishment. Albeit Celtic used it once and, when advised, they stopped it.

Furthermore this would be a good time for Hearts to admit theirs and it would make it difficult/awkward for firm penalties to be enforced against Rangers. and allow their own misdemeanours to slip under the radar.


As I said, just a thought.

[joe breezy]

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An Observation;

Given that Celtic have now admitted that they used an EBT will those that are defending Rangers (SPL, Sportsound et al) use this to try to drag Celtic into this mess and argue that the quantity dosent matter but the fact that they did it should attract the same punishment. Albeit Celtic used it once and, when advised, they stopped it.

Furthermore this would be a good time for Hearts to admit theirs and it would make it difficult/awkward for firm penalties to be enforced against Rangers. and allow their own misdemeanours to slip under the radar.


As I said, just a thought.

I don't know the full details but think it was with Juninho and it was an inherited situation, perhaps Boro had been using an EBT on advice of an agent? As above as soon as Celtic knew it was dodgy they stopped it

Interestingly some Celtic fans are saying they would be happy to be stripped of their title that year.

[HFC 0-7]

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These EBT's have broken the SFA rules and the club should have it's membership withdrawn.

Takes the decision out of the SPL's hands.

If they're such a big club they can reform in the Juniors and work their way up.

The SFA arent involved just now, if rangers reform into a newco and the SPL allow them back into the SPL, then the SPl announce their findings I am not sure if they can then do anything legally to punish the newco.

[Kaiser1962]

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I don't know the full details but think it was with Juninho and it was an inherited situation, perhaps Boro had been using an EBT on advice of an agent? As above as soon as Celtic knew it was dodgy they stopped it

Interestingly some Celtic fans are saying they would be happy to be stripped of their title that year.

Totally agree but if I was of a mind to try to ensure that Rangers remained in the SPL the argument would be that they did it. Dosent matter how long or how many.


Of course this is nonsense and Celtic's EBT dosent even register when compared to others but, as I said, if you are trying to assist Rangers I can see how someone (Doncaster) might argue this point.


Incidentally ragerstaxcase.com won the 2012 Orwell Blog prize so a big well done to those guys for refusing to be silenced.

[greenginger]

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An Observation;

Given that Celtic have now admitted that they used an EBT will those that are defending Rangers (SPL, Sportsound et al) use this to try to drag Celtic into this mess and argue that the quantity dosent matter but the fact that they did it should attract the same punishment. Albeit Celtic used it once and, when advised, they stopped it.

Furthermore this would be a good time for Hearts to admit theirs and it would make it difficult/awkward for firm penalties to be enforced against Rangers. and allow their own misdemeanours to slip under the radar.


As I said, just a thought.

Trouble with the Yams tax scam is the side letters were all in Lithuanian and coded by the Enigma Fax Machine.

However, I still think Skacel court case with his agent, due to return to Court next month will prove the player was getting a lot more cash for playing for Hearts than the amount recorded in is Hearts Contract.

His Contract, according to press reports was for 190,000 Euros per year, thats about £ 3000 per week. I don't think he came back for that considering what others were on at the PBS.

[ScottB]

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An Observation;

Given that Celtic have now admitted that they used an EBT will those that are defending Rangers (SPL, Sportsound et al) use this to try to drag Celtic into this mess and argue that the quantity dosent matter but the fact that they did it should attract the same punishment. Albeit Celtic used it once and, when advised, they stopped it.

Furthermore this would be a good time for Hearts to admit theirs and it would make it difficult/awkward for firm penalties to be enforced against Rangers. and allow their own misdemeanours to slip under the radar.


As I said, just a thought.

Celtic should also have every game the hidden EBT was used chalked off as 3-0 defeats as well. So in 2006, Aberdeen won the league and we finished second

Use of EBT's isn't illegal, not declaring it / using hidden contracts is as far as the SFA / SPL are concerned, that's the issue.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Besides everything else, the programme claimed to have evidence connecting this whole thing directly to the team that was put on the pitch via EBT payments to players as salary top ups.

Ergo players who were otherwise unaffordable became affordable

Better players who brought more success

CHEATING



If this is proven, they're goners.

[calmac12000]

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An Observation;

Given that Celtic have now admitted that they used an EBT will those that are defending Rangers (SPL, Sportsound et al) use this to try to drag Celtic into this mess and argue that the quantity dosent matter but the fact that they did it should attract the same punishment. Albeit Celtic used it once and, when advised, they stopped it.

Furthermore this would be a good time for Hearts to admit theirs and it would make it difficult/awkward for firm penalties to be enforced against Rangers. and allow their own misdemeanours to slip under the radar.


As I said, just a thought.

That's a good point as it shows that another club went down this path, but on reflection (and presumably more competent financial advice than the Huns recieved) realised the error of their ways. The Yams case as always with them is difficult to comment on, simply as not enough of their finacial information is readible acessible. I have to say that as icreasing light is shed upon the goings on at Castle Greyskull, one can't avoid the impression that the finaacial advice they recieved was analagous to that proffered by someone after they've spent a lengthy period imbibibng alcohol!

[lapsedhibee]

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Interestingly some Celtic fans are saying they would be happy to be stripped of their title that year.

Hearts have been very farsighted in all this. It's now apparent that the reason that they didn't bother going for the CL title that year they were in it (because they would surely have won it, if they'd wanted to) was that they knew they'd eventually be stripped of it when their EBTs came to light. Previously I'd thought that the yams were living from one dodgy short-term fix to the next with players' wages and that, but here they've shown real vision.

[MyJo]

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Celtic should also have every game the hidden EBT was used chalked off as 3-0 defeats as well. So in 2006, Aberdeen won the league and we finished second

Use of EBT's isn't illegal, not declaring it / using hidden contracts is as far as the SFA / SPL are concerned, that's the issue.

An EBT itself is not illegal, however using one to provide pre-agreed payments as part of an employment (supplementing wages basically) is tax evasion and this is why the taxman is after them.
The hidden contracts given to players make this illegal from a tax point of view and also against the rules of the sfa/spl.

[Caversham Green]

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not that exciting I'm afraid.

Basically he was saying that the SPL can only enforce the rules as they exist. He clearly believes, or at least says he does, that there is no rule to stop a newco from taking rangers place in the league. I haven't checked yet but he reckoned SPL rules 11 & 13 means they can do a newco and get straight back in and that 14 which is the ones the club vote on would not come into play in this scenario.

I basically said that as a business I would not be happy at the SPL condoning one of there clubs running up debts with small businesses and then walking away from those debts. For that reason I was reconsidering my support to scottish football (which is fairly minimal but none the less). he gave the right noises about understanding but said again that they can only enforce the rules as they currently stand. I didn't have a copy of the rules so just said that I sincerely hoped they would be and that a lot of people would be watching to make sure they where.

He mentioned english clubs doing newcos a lot and I just said thats England, this is Scotland and i don't no of any newco examples in Scotland which sets a precedent. he didn't either.

hats off to him for phoning me, and he was at least prepared to give his position and point of view, however I'm not sure he yet gets what is about to happen.

Wish I had been better prepared but TBH never expected an email reply never mind a phone call so quickly.

I have a copy of the rules (I can email it to you if you want) and there are no rules 11, 13 or 14 - the rule are annotated by letter/number/sub-number like A1.1 and the sections that go up to number 11 and above don't bear much relationship to this issue. I think he must be referring to the Articles of Association which I don't have - I'll see if I can get a copy.

From what I can see of the rules though, there is absolutely no provision for a newco, but there are a number of rules that could be read as specifically prohibiting one from joining the SPL.

If you or anyone else has any further dealings with Doncaster it might be worth asking him to forward copies of any documents he quotes.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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Hearts have been very farsighted in all this. It's now apparent that the reason that they didn't bother going for the CL title that year they were in it (because they would surely have won it, if they'd wanted to) was that they knew they'd eventually be stripped of it when their EBTs came to light. Previously I'd thought that the yams were living from one dodgy short-term fix to the next with players' wages and that, but here they've shown real vision.

Ah, the big cup they are always going on about. Only right for a giant like Hearts.

[joe breezy]

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Unfashionable as it is i feel sorry for the Rangers fans. I remember when we were shafted by a similar group of corrupt shysters and it's a horrible feeling.

The vast majority of punters at Ibrox are just normal guys who love their fitba albeit with a dodgy songbook thrown in.

I actually find the lust for blood amongst fans of other clubs, including ours, slightly distasteful and am thankful we didn't have to suffer anything like the same degree of scorn and vindictiveness back in the dark days of Duff, Gray Rowland et al.

We are the people?

There's a few alright ones but not many..

[big-mo]

Following the statement from the Killie chairman, Michael Johnston, who thinks that Rangers have been punished enough and no more sanctions should be taken against them, I think that supporters of all other clubs who oppose this view should boycott all matches at Rugby Park, and any other clubs that take Johnston's and Rangers side. If Johnston thinks that Rangers are key to his clubs existence, they may lose out on TV money and one or two visits of the current buns per season, but how much more would they lose if they played all season with no visiting supporters.

Tell me if you think this idea is rubbish or if you think that it might be a goer?

[PeeJay]

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From swallowswallow:

Part 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3wA9hzGQGs&sns=em

Part - 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy0ZEBiShRA&sns=em

Part - 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKQtYiC9rG8&sns=em

Part - 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYOuKPwe-ow&sns=em

Big thank you to you for posting the links - some amazing "revelations" in there

[Kojock]

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I have a copy of the rules (I can email it to you if you want) and there are no rules 11, 13 or 14 - the rule are annotated by letter/number/sub-number like A1.1 and the sections that go up to number 11 and above don't bear much relationship to this issue. I think he must be referring to the Articles of Association which I don't have - I'll see if I can get a copy.

From what I can see of the rules though, there is absolutely no provision for a newco, but there are a number of rules that could be read as specifically prohibiting one from joining the SPL.

If you or anyone else has any further dealings with Doncaster it might be worth asking him to forward copies of any documents he quotes.

SPL Rules Effective 14th May 2012

http://www.scotprem.com/content/medi...MAY%202012.pdf

SFA Articles of Association

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resource...09Articles.pdf

12.1 The Board may arrange for an inspection of all such books, records and details for
any purpose, including but not limited to, National Club Licensing. Such inspection
may be conducted by the Board, such authorised employees of the Association, the
Association’s auditors or other professional advisers duly appointed by the Board
on giving to any club or recognised football body reasonable notice of its intention
to do so.

Furthermore, all payments, whether made by the club or otherwise, which are to
be made to a player solely relating to his playing activities must be fully recorded
within the relevant written agreement with the player prior to submission to this
Association and/or the recognised football body of which his club is in membership.

[Kaiser1962]

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An EBT itself is not illegal, however using one to provide pre-agreed payments as part of an employment (supplementing wages basically) is tax evasion and this is why the taxman is after them.
The hidden contracts given to players make this illegal from a tax point of view and also against the rules of the sfa/spl.

No EBT's are not illegal but if everything was above board and, more importantly, Rangers were supremely confident of their position, why the subterfuge, why the lack of cooperation? And if Billy Dodds is so sure that everything was legal and proper why did he lie on sportsound?

There is a definite incongruence between words and actions.

[Caversham Green]

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SPL Rules Effective 14th May 2012

http://www.scotprem.com/content/medi...4 MAY 2012.pdf

Articles of Association

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resource...09Articles.pdf

That's the articles of the SFA rather than the SPL, but the SPL rules are a newer version than I've got.

I've just ordered a copy of the SPL articles - I'll give my thoughts once I've had a chance to look at them.