Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[down-the-slope]

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Although we disagree on how we get there, I would agree that, in practice, it's unlikely that Ticketus will get anything from RFC. Even if their claim is admitted by the admins or a liquidator:-

1. there will be no CVA. Even if there was one, the dividend would be pennies.

2. if the club is sold on, the buyer would probably say "I don't want the Ticketus debt". If the admins agree to that, Ticketus get nowt.

3. in a liquidation, it's back to 1 above, although selling off the assets would probably increase the dividend.

Maybe..but if its liquidated then they have plenty to pay these debts

[Dr Jimmy]

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Can you see the decision go in rangers favour? If it did would it not just mean every club in the uk would adopt the same scheme and start paying their players via ebt's? Or is it now a case of hmrc having proof that it happened on the way claimed?

HMRC will never back down on any perceived misuse of EBTs. They view the misuse of the scheme as a threat to the whole PAYE system.

That is, as we see on here......FACT!

[Wat Dabney]

Apologies if this has already been answered, but can anyone tell me why the admins are still honouring the season tickets at Ibrox?

Surely if they had 50,000 paying fans each home game they would have enough new income to get by.

[down-the-slope]

the Admins are now wanting to sell ASAP - they must be mental....no one who is sane would take on a business that is technically insolvent with potential outstanding liabilities that are more than assets (its debatable whether these assets could be liquidated to anything near their book value)

Liquidation is several giant strides nearer.....and no home game for 2 1/2 weeks...so no cash income...

Celtic may not get to win league at Ibrox after all...

[CropleyWasGod]

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One point about the Ticketus deal - on the face of it there is no debt due to them either by RFC or CW. Rangers/CW have sold Ticketus a commodity (future ticket sales) at an agreed price, and that price has been paid over. The fact that that commodity might now have no value is Ticketus' bad luck - that's what investment is all about. They may have a claim for misrepresentation (probably against CW) if there's no events to sell tickets for, but in theory at least there's no monetary debt at the moment. I can't see that prospective buyers can change that, they can only reduce the amount they are willing to pay for the club.

Welcome back, Cav.... glad you're here to help me out... I'm faking like F here

Okay, I have been thinking about this scenario.

1. RFC sell their assets (not the shares) to a New Company. The players, the properties and the name.

2. The old company is liquidated, on the basis of those proceeds, the debts already established and, perhaps, the BTC.

As I see that, the team maintains their place in the SPL. The debts are dealt with, albeit only partly.

I must have missed something.... it seems too simple. Gratuitous alienation, or whatever it's called these days??

[CropleyWasGod]

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Apologies if this has already been answered, but can anyone tell me why the admins are still honouring the season tickets at Ibrox?

Surely if they had 50,000 paying fans each home game they would have enough new income to get by.

I think it's a goodwill thing to keep the fans on their side.

[Wat Dabney]

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I think it's a goodwill thing to keep the fans on their side.

Surely then the admins are not doing their duty to the creditors? Seems a bit odd.

[SteveHFC]

Would Motherwell get the extra champions league spot if they finish 3rd?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Surely then the admins are not doing their duty to the creditors? Seems a bit odd.

It does, I agree. But then perhaps they have looked at the legalities of it all. The ST holders have paid for the right to these games, and they probably would have a fair case for suing RFC.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Would Motherwell get the extra champions league spot if they finish 3rd?

They would get it, I reckon, if Hearts finished 3rd and Well 4th. As I interpret D & P's statement about Rangers, I can't see Hearts passing UEFA's criteria either.

[CentreLine]

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It does, I agree. But then perhaps they have looked at the legalities of it all. The ST holders have paid for the right to these games, and they probably would have a fair case for suing RFC.

Which brings us back to Ticketus - No?

[Caversham Green]

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Welcome back, Cav.... glad you're here to help me out... I'm faking like F here

Okay, I have been thinking about this scenario.

1. RFC sell their assets (not the shares) to a New Company. The players, the properties and the name.

2. The old company is liquidated, on the basis of those proceeds, the debts already established and, perhaps, the BTC.

As I see that, the team maintains their place in the SPL. The debts are dealt with, albeit only partly.

I must have missed something.... it seems too simple.

You're doing a sterling job CWG, I've just been sitting back watching.

I wonder if the ticket rights are for the current Rangers FC home games at Ibrox, the current Rangers FC games anywhere or any home games at Ibrox. The possibilities change with each different scenario.

I think there are three potential problems with the Newco solution -

1. There's no guarantee that they will get straight into the SPL, although Mr Doncaster sounds as if he's doing his best for them,
2. They definitely won't play in Europe for three years.
3. There are provisions for the debts of old companies to be carried over to phoenix companies, so it would depend on how the Newco was implemented.

Another solution that doesn't seem to have been considered much is for the interested parties to buy an existing club and change their name and location (like Airdrie did with Clydebank). There are at least two SPL clubs looking for a buyer at the moment and while it seems unlikely, it's probably no less so than RFC disappearing completely. I did mention this in jest as a possibility regarding one of those clubs a while back but right now all bets are off afaic.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Which brings us back to Ticketus - No?

Oh stop it.... I disappeared up that particular sphincter days ago.

[Wat Dabney]

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Which brings us back to Ticketus - No?

Maybe ticketus already own 25% of this seasons tickets! It would have to be a lottery to see who gets chucked and who keeps their seat!!

[Wat Dabney]

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You're doing a sterling job CWG, I've just been sitting back watching.


Another solution that doesn't seem to have been considered much is for the interested parties to buy an existing club and change their name and location (like Airdrie did with Clydebank). There are at least two SPL clubs looking for a buyer at the moment and while it seems unlikely, it's probably no less so than RFC disappearing completely. I did mention this in jest as a possibility regarding one of those clubs a while back but right now all bets are off afaic.

I've been thinking along those lines for a while. Doncaster also says there is no provision for letting newco enter SFL . How much to buy Berwick Rangers? The name's almost right as well

[CropleyWasGod]

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Maybe ticketus already own 25% of this seasons tickets! It would have to be a lottery to see who gets chucked and who keeps their seat!!

As I understand it, they did pay for 25-30,000 season tickets this season. The original deal was for three years. RFC couldn't afford to pay Ticketus their share this season, so the deal was extended to 4 years.

[CropleyWasGod]

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3. There are provisions for the debts of old companies to be carried over to phoenix companies, so it would depend on how the Newco was implemented.

.

Explain. (25 marks)

[jgl07]

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Good point. But Amanda Jones was quite clear on this last night. Employment law doesn't stop applying just because there is an administration, and players would have the right to sue.

Whether they could have funds ring-fenced, though, as I suggested... not sure. But it does seem that Employment Law trumps most things here. Hence the stand-off over the past few days.

They would have to stand in line with the other creditors, behind the secured creditors (if there are any).

We have had plenty of situations of footballclubs entering administration in Scotland: Airdrie, Motherwell, Livingston (twice), Dundee (twice?).

I can recall plenty of players getting binned (19 at Motherwell) and I can't remember any of the players getting anywhere with legal action beyond the payment via the CVA.

In the case of Motherwell, the main aim of administration was to get rid of a number of underperforming players brought in by Billy Davies on long term expensive contracts.

[CropleyWasGod]

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They would have to stand in line with the other creditors, behind the secured creditors (if there are any).

We have had plenty of situations of footballclubs entering administration in Scotland: Airdrie, Motherwell, Livingston (twice), Dundee (twice?).

I can recall plenty of players getting binned (19 at Motherwell) and I can't remember any of the players getting anywhere with legal action beyond the payment via the CVA.

In the case of Motherwell, the main aim of administration was to get rid of a number of underperforming players brought in by Billy Davies on long term expensive contracts.

Yeah, I can agree with all that. I think I was trying to demonstrate that binning a player doesn't necessarily help the situation. It might cut immediate costs, but it just adds to the debt. And that, of course, doesn't help if you're trying to sell the club as a going concern.... one player down, and more debt in the company.

[Caversham Green]

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Explain. (25 marks)

I don't know the details, I'm just aware that where a Newco can be seen as a continuation of a liquidated Oldco there are provisions for some of the debts to be transferred.














I won't get many marks for that will I?

[ancient hibee]

As players contracts are with old Rangers(perhaps)any transfer of assets to a new company would presumably be,under employment law,a breach of contract allowing the players to walk-if they want.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I don't know the details, I'm just aware that where a Newco can be seen as a continuation of a liquidated Oldco there are provisions for some of the debts to be transferred.














I won't get many marks for that will I?

Hmmmm... maybe a couple for identity, but F all for analysis.

Who decides, though? Is it the admins, or the Courts, or would a creditor of the old company lodge an objection?

[jgl07]

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I don't know the details, I'm just aware that where a Newco can be seen as a continuation of a liquidated Oldco there are provisions for some of the debts to be transferred.

I won't get many marks for that will I?

The suggestions seems to be 'Sell the club including the 'SPL franchise' and leave (most of) the debts behind'.

The immediate question with that scenario, is why has that strategy not been employed before if it was that easy?

[grunt]

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I don't know the details, I'm just aware that where a Newco can be seen as a continuation of a liquidated Oldco there are provisions for some of the debts to be transferred.

This has been covered already on this thread, together with a link to the HMRC statement on phoenix companies. It's the devil's own task trying to find it, though...

[CropleyWasGod]

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The suggestions seems to be 'Sell the club including the 'SPL franchise' and leave (most of) the debts behind'.

The immediate question with that scenario, is why has that strategy not been employed before if it was that easy?

I think, as Cav said, that's because the SPL franchise wouldn't be guaranteed. And certainly European football would be out for 3 years.

However, the alternatives are, in theory, more attractive. The CVA route would avoid both of those. Selling the company as a going concern would avoid the European ban, I think, although the SPL place couldn't be guaranteed.

[CropleyWasGod]

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This has been covered already on this thread, together with a link to the HMRC statement on phoenix companies. It's the devil's own task trying to find it, though...

This wouldn't be a phoenix company, though, not in the way I understand it. Different directors, different shareholders, of a company buying the assets (and perhaps the debts) of another .

[greenginger]

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I've been thinking along those lines for a while. Doncaster also says there is no provision for letting newco enter SFL . How much to buy Berwick Rangers? The name's almost right as well

These are just weasel words from Doncaster. Sure, the SPL can't insist the SFL accept New-Co Huns but their league will be one short if there is promotion to, but no relegation from the SPL.

Are they likely to turn down the income from the regurgitated Huns ? Not a chance, just hope they make them work their way up the leagues giving everyone an extra couple of paydays. Of course their stay downstairs could be extended if they were refused promotion a couple of times because of Sectarian singing etc.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

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There is a wonderful error on Sky Sports News just now stating that "rangers director Paul King states liquidation is inevitable'......seeing as that's my name it makes for some lovely viewing.

Do you have a lot ofLove and Pride for that club?

[jgl07]

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These are just weasel words from Doncaster. Sure, the SPL can't insist the SFL accept New-Co Huns but their league will be one short if there is promotion to, but no relegation from the SPL.

Are they likely to turn down the income from the regurgitated Huns ? Not a chance, just hope they make them work their way up the leagues giving everyone an extra couple of paydays. Of course their stay downstairs could be extended if they were refused promotion a couple of times because of Sectarian singing etc.

That reminds me of when Marsilles, then French champions and recently champions' league holders, were busted down to Division Two in France for irregular payments. They won promotion first time of asking but were busted down again when new allegations came to light. They never regained their dominance of French Football.

[CentreLine]

I believe there has to be a certain amount of natural justice in a Newco Rangers starting again at the foot of Div3. They would bring good crowds to games by comparison to other teams. Consequently, as they progressed up through leagues 3, 2, and 1, they would leave behind a financial benefit to each of the SFL clubs. This in itself would ensure that Rangers go some way to redressing the balance for a Scottish football system that they have been cheating for years.

In the meantime the SPL would be a fairer and more competitive league which in turn might generate substantial interest from walk-up fans. I am not convinced that the TV companies would abandon that scenario although they may want to renegotiate some.

I see this being a fair and acceptable form of “punishment” that has the potential to leave a genuine legacy the entire length of the professional game in this country. The Rangers that emerged from the process might even be due some plaudits. Perhaps that is pushing the boundaries a little too far.