Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

**Onion** · 01-03-2012 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by PaulSmith

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Pars only able to pay 60% wages to their own players, Alan Preston hinting that rangers due money causing problems

Rangers should be FORCED by the SFA (via the Administrators if necessary) to pay off their debts to other SPL clubs BEFORE they start thinking about future earnings. It appears from their behaviour so far that the Administrators are doing all they can to help the Huns keep their better players - paying their players higher wages than anyone other than Celtic - yet you have a team like DAFC struggling to even operate because of the Huns immoral activities.

A 10 point deduction doesn't come close to being a reasonable punishment !

***CropleyWasGod*** · 01-03-2012 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by Onion

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Rangers should be FORCED by the SFA (via the Administrators if necessary) to pay off their debts to other SPL clubs BEFORE they start thinking about future earnings. It appears from their behaviour so far that the Administrators are doing all they can to help the Huns keep their better players - paying their players higher wages than anyone other than Celtic - yet you have a team like DAFC struggling to even operate because of the Huns immoral activities.

A 10 point deduction doesn't come close to being a reasonable punishment !

Why should football clubs come before the tax man, the police, the local council, the local plumber? They don't have the cash to pay them all.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 01-03-2012 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by StevieC

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I reckon it's the original theory .. Ticketus are seriously worried that liquidation means they can kiss goodbye to their £24m. It's in their best interest to keep the club alive, even if that means part funding a takeover bid that guarantees to keep the club out of liquidation.

It also undermines the story that CW told (...

) that he had personally guaranteed the deal.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 01-03-2012 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by greenginger

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They are expecting an income of £5.5 million between now and the end of the season. Remaining home fixtures before the split are Hearts, Celtic and St Mirren, and two games after the split.

Even with TV rights and adds,sponsorship etc they are very optimistic or are they going to void the season tickets and assume that they will get a full house of paying customers ?

They will probably get a good gate this weekend, with the chance to say goodbye to some players. They will get a full house against Celtic, no matter what team they put out.

That is why I think the admins have made the right choice about the timing of the player cuts.

**ancienthibby** · 01-03-2012 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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It also undermines the story that CW told (...

) that he had personally guaranteed the deal.

Maybe not quite so, Mr C, since Craikie White said he had given guarantees and cash to make the deal happen.

The cash pledged won't be worthless

***CropleyWasGod*** · 01-03-2012 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by ancienthibby

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Maybe not quite so, Mr C, since Craikie White said he had given guarantees and cash to make the deal happen.

The cash pledged won't be worthless

The point I was making was in response to the POV that Ticketus are scared of losing their £24m if RFC go into liquidation. If they are so scared, it suggests that CW was talking Whyte. (as if....

)

***Leithenhibby*** · 01-03-2012 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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Davis, Whittaker and mcgregor signed their new contracts with Wavetower plc which is against SFA and uefa rules.
While the SFA would normally find a way to let this slip as it's rangers uefa are watching the situation closely and recently threatened to ban Switzerland from international football for not dealing harshly enough with sion fc who were up to the same racket.
Spartans were kicked out of this years Scottish cup for failing to register a player properly, which gives an indication of the precedent set when it comes to contract irregularities.

I am pretty much certain that DAFC would be more than happy if that was the outcome

http://uk.soccerway.com/national/swi...egular-season/

**EuanH78** · 01-03-2012 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by LeithenHibby

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I am pretty much certain that DAFC would be more than happy if that was the outcome

http://uk.soccerway.com/national/swi...egular-season/

Not just DAFC, I think I might literally pish myself laughing.

So on top of administration and the big tax case ruling, Rangers may get charged with fielding ineligible players as well? I assume this would mean any results they have 'won' being overturned and a further points deduction (this season or next) making relegation a near certainty?

Actually looks like liquidation would be the best thing for them if that all falls out. Personally hope they stay afloat and are crippled for years upon years but either way is a win I suppose

***McD*** · 01-03-2012 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Hibs Class

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It really makes you wonder who is running this administration. It's a financial decision, not a footballing decision. It's got sod all to do with Sally and the length of time it's taking to cut these costs raises questions about the competence, partiality and integrity of the administrators.

Certainly does raise questions, particularly when we consider that pretty much every other club thats gone into administration has announced redundancies almost immediately, but here we are weeks later and still nothing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17221172

No direct quotes from McCoist in this article, but if its true, it shows how pathetic and detached from the real world he really is, when he is pushing D&P to make bigger redundancies from non-playing staff in order to keep more of the players on board. The very people who would struggle to survive should they be made redundant (and not to mention are blameless in this whole affair, and not been benefiting from the alleged 2 contracts stuff) are the ones Sally wants out in order to keep the highly paid and much more likely to survive without immediate income tossers.

The whole thing beggars belief......thats not to say I'm not enjoying the show

**ancient hibee** · 01-03-2012 05:51 PM

If players have signed contracts with Wavetower the SFA should already know because contracts have to be registered with them.

Ticketus seem to have made the the biggest brown trouser boob of all time.

If players like McGregor are on the payroll other clubs would be mad to agree to a 10p in the £ settlement -they should insist that all steps are taken to raise funds and if that means selling everybody-well get on with it.

**cad** · 01-03-2012 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by ancient hibee

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If players have signed contracts with Wavetower the SFA should already know because contracts have to be registered with them.

Ticketus seem to have made the the biggest brown trouser boob of all time.

If players like McGregor are on the payroll other clubs would be mad to agree to a 10p in the £ settlement -they should insist that all steps are taken to raise funds and if that means selling everybody-well get on with it.

Is that guy Ratner on the board of Ticketus ,

***Billy Whizz*** · 01-03-2012 06:43 PM

If Rangers were liquidated would all their results against SPL teams be scrubbed

***Godsahibby*** · 01-03-2012 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by ancient hibee

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If players have signed contracts with Wavetower the SFA should already know because contracts have to be registered with them.

Originally Posted by ancient hibee

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Ticketus seem to have made the the biggest brown trouser boob of all time.

If players like McGregor are on the payroll other clubs would be mad to agree to a 10p in the £ settlement -they should insist that all steps are taken to raise funds and if that means selling everybody-well get on with it.

According to the guy on the phone in on Saturday the issue is tha players had two different contracts, one with Rangers which was registered with the SFA and another with the other company.

***Newry Hibs*** · 01-03-2012 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by ancient hibee

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If players have signed contracts with Wavetower the SFA should already know because contracts have to be registered with them.

Maybe I'm being very naive, but surely if RFC went to the trouble of getting players to sign for another company, they would have checked that is allowed? (Yes I know they also had the cunning plan of paying players via an EBT). Presumably there would be a benefit to this sort of arrangement (assuming it was allowed). Why is this only coming to light now?

**EuanH78** · 01-03-2012 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by Newry Hibs

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Maybe I'm being very naive, but surely if RFC went to the trouble of getting players to sign for another company, they would have checked that is allowed? (Yes I know they also had the cunning plan of paying players via an EBT). Presumably there would be a benefit to this sort of arrangement (assuming it was allowed). Why is this only coming to light now?

Presumably as you alluded to in your post. Rangers see laws as mere 'suggested guidelines'. Though this contract stuff is still just a rumour I think.

***greenginger*** · 01-03-2012 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by EuanH78

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Presumably as you alluded to in your post. Rangers see laws as mere 'suggested guidelines'. Though this contract stuff is still just a rumour I think.

Also did Whyte not P45 Bain, McIntyre and anyone else who might have known about the necessity of registering player contracts properly.

I know its just a rumour but Whyte comes across as someone thick enough to have done it.

**DH1875** · 01-03-2012 08:30 PM

Is this not dragging on a bit. Should they not all have been given the bullet yet.

**Cropley10** · 01-03-2012 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Hibs Class

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They need to cut costs to the maximum extent they can, especially if they are currently projecting a further shortfall of c.£4.5m over the remainder of this season. i.e. cutting costs is their priority and what that might do to their final league position or how upset it might make McCoist, or anything else, are all secondary considerations. Every day that they make no cuts is another day where they have lost more money which means less money available to their creditors. And another day of no doubt astronomical administrator fees.

£500/hr

***Eyrie*** · 01-03-2012 08:35 PM

They have very few players out of contract at the end of this season, so the administrators need to weigh up potential transfer values when deciding who to cut.

But 35 players in a first team squad is excessive when only 18 can be involved in a game.

**Cropley10** · 01-03-2012 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by goldenhibby

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If Rangers were liquidated would all their results against SPL teams be scrubbed

Yes. Anyone who has taken points off them would lose them.

Originally Posted by Newry Hibs

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Maybe I'm being very naive, but surely if RFC went to the trouble of getting players to sign for another company, they would have checked that is allowed? (Yes I know they also had the cunning plan of paying players via an EBT). Presumably there would be a benefit to this sort of arrangement (assuming it was allowed). Why is this only coming to light now?

The EBT's for players ended a while ago. It's been suggested that the players who signed new contracts in the summer were not signed to the Club, but RFC Group - in effect a third-party, which is another big no-no.

**~~PaulSmith~~** · 01-03-2012 08:48 PM

What's Irish Phil on about now, saying that Whyte had sold off the copyright to the club crest and name and registered another one for 'new' Rangers

**Onion** · 01-03-2012 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Andy74

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You could argue with Rangers though that they still have a potential up side of keeping a team together in prize money and possibly European football depending on timings so may not be quite as simple as straight off cutting costs.

Taken to that logical conclusion, why don't they just borrow another £150m buy a load a real good players in the hope they might win the CL and earn £mmm ? Sounds to me, like the Admins are playing Football Manager with a real club and no money - if this all unravels and they don;t manage to get 2nd place, CL football and lose even mote money, the Admins will have a lot of explaining to do and might even be sued by the creditors for negligence of their primary duties. It all smells like a really bad smell.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 01-03-2012 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Onion

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Taken to that logical conclusion, why don't they just borrow another £150m buy a load a real good players in the hope they might win the CL and earn £mmm ? Sounds to me, like the Admins are playing Football Manager with a real club and no money - if this all unravels and they don;t manage to get 2nd place, CL football and lose even mote money, the Admins will have a lot of explaining to do and might even be sued by the creditors for negligence of their primary duties. It all smells like a really bad smell.

IMO, they have gone about things the right way:-

1. establish what cash they have.

2. establish what happened to the cash they should have had.

3. establish the extent of the debts

4. maximise income, ie selling out for the Kilmarnock game.

5. THEN look at cost cutting, with a view to maximising income whilst minimising expenditure.

I struggle to see how they could attend to 5, without doing 1-3 first.

**Onion** · 01-03-2012 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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Why should football clubs come before the tax man, the police, the local council, the local plumber? They don't have the cash to pay them all.

I realise they can't do this.... but the SFA/SPL has a responsibility to ALL the clubs in the SPL and it appears that they think they've done their job by docking Rangers 10 points - when the reality is that their debts have had much bigger far reaching effects on the league and innocent competitors {Yams excepted).

10 points deducted for what they have done now looks like a minor slap on the wrist for murder. If they fail to pay their debts to other SPL clubs it should be immediate relegation to the lowest league, without appeal.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 01-03-2012 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Onion

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I realise they can't do this.... but the SFA/SPL has a responsibility to ALL the clubs in the SPL and it appears that they think they've done their job by docking Rangers 10 points - when the reality is that their debts have had much bigger far reaching effects on the league and innocent competitors {Yams excepted).

10 points deducted for what they have done now looks like a minor slap on the wrist for murder. If they fail to pay their debts to other SPL clubs it should be immediate relegation to the lowest league, without appeal.

I would rather wait for the report from the Nimmo-Smith enquiry before I throw stones at the SFA.

**Cropley10** · 01-03-2012 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Onion

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Taken to that logical conclusion, why don't they just borrow another £150m buy a load a real good players in the hope they might win the CL and earn £mmm ? Sounds to me, like the Admins are playing Football Manager with a real club and no money - if this all unravels and they don;t manage to get 2nd place, CL football and lose even mote money, the Admins will have a lot of explaining to do and might even be sued by the creditors for negligence of their primary duties. It all smells like a really bad smell.

Without auditted accounts by 31.3 then there's no Euro football for the Hun.

I believe that the SFA also need auddited accounts.

CWG might like to tell us if it would be possible to produce auditted accounts in the time remaining.

My reading of it is D&P are trying to maintain Rangers as a going concern (but the BTC verdict hasn't arrived yet and if it's bad - and HMRC they will appeal if they lose - then it's not looking likely that they can be saved).

**Cropley10** · 01-03-2012 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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I would rather wait for the report from the Nimmo-Smith enquiry before I throw stones at the SFA.

Nimmo the Dimmo's brief is to narrow - don't hold your breath for any criticism whatsoever...

**~~TornadoHibby~~** · 01-03-2012 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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I would rather wait for the report from the Nimmo-Smith enquiry before I throw stones at the SFA.

I don't think he's known for being "controversial" or "taking on the establishment" when it's easier to say very little of substance which guys in his position can often do and get away with!

***CropleyWasGod*** · 01-03-2012 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Cropley10

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Without auditted accounts by 31.3 then there's no Euro football for the Hun.

I believe that the SFA also need auddited accounts.

CWG might like to tell us if it would be possible to produce auditted accounts in the time remaining.

My reading of it is D&P are trying to maintain Rangers as a going concern (but the BTC verdict hasn't arrived yet and if it's bad - and HMRC they will appeal if they lose - then it's not looking likely that they can be saved).

I don't doubt that the accounts have been prepared. They just haven't been signed off yet, either by the directors, the auditors, or both.

It is likely that there has been some disagreement over the content of the accounts or the auditors' report. The substance of that disagreement could only be guesswork at the moment. However, it may be that some of the information established by the admins might help those issues to be resolved.

I do think that the admins will be working with the auditors, with a view to having the accounts signed off by 31 March. Doing that, and ensuring European football, will make RFC more attractive to a buyer. Maximising the sale price would maximise the return to the creditors.