Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[HFC 0-7]

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That will depend upon the terms of the loan facility documentation and agreement(s) none of which we can guess about with any degree of accuracy !

Its sounds to me like the parent company has taken out a loan that was due to be repaid via Rangers FC, if the loan was paid to the parent company, surely it was taken out by the parent company and therefore ticketus wont have to go accepting any administration deals?

[TornadoHibby]

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Its sounds to me like the parent company has taken out a loan that was due to be repaid via Rangers FC, if the loan was paid to the parent company, surely it was taken out by the parent company and therefore ticketus wont have to go accepting any administration deals?

Very possibly but without seeing the documentation none of us can know the true position and debate is purely hypothetical!

[PaulSmith]

Alastair Johnston has asked crown office to conduct a criminal fraud investigation into CW's takeover, as per bbc reporters twitter

[DCI Gene Hunt]

Having sat back and observed for the past few days now the countless stories, the media frenzy and the hundreds of comments posted on here, I just thought I'd fling my tuppence worth in, for all it's worth.

Rangers have brought this misfortune on themselves entirely by their own doing and therefore should be held fully accountable. For one thing, as a UK taxpayer I am not happy at all that a company has diddled the Government out of at least £50 Million. It is in all our interests to see that this debt is paid back fully for our sakes.

Like many others who have expressed the same opinion here I believe that what Rangers have done over the past two decades, i.e. spending stupendous amounts of money that didn't exist and refusing to pay their appropriate dues with HMRC in order to gain footballing success is nothing short of a swindle. There is no doubt about it it is CHEATING. Cheats break the rules and therefore must be punished by the rules.

I have sat back and digested all of what the talking heads have to say - businessmen, lawyers, pundits, fans, idiot politicians - and I cannot reach any other conclusion that what we have here is undoubtedly an absolutely brilliant thing. For once, we have a fantastic opportunity to completely revamp Scottish football for the better. It is simply an opportunity we cannot and must not let pass us by.

We have an opportunity to destroy the old corrupt ways run by the Glasgow clubs and get back some real football. We have an opportunity to kick out a club which seems to think that it has divine rule in the SPL and has a right to cheat its way into victory and has some sort of right to be in the SPL. We have an opportunity to break an unfair duopoly which has destroyed any competition in the SPL and has hence damaged the game. We have a chance to level things both financially and in football terms. We have a chance to kick out the odious heathen bigotry which has decimated the reputation of our game.

We have a chance to have a fairer, livelier, more competative league, without the baggage of certain teams having an unfair political, financial and footballing upper hand, and without the disgusting ugly bigotry that seems to come with it.

I am furious that we have the likes of idiot Salmond mouthing that the game will be better with Rangers than without. Piffle! Our game is suffering *because* of Rangers. Speak to the fans. The only people who want Rangers to stay are Rangers themselves! Everyone else cannot wait to boot them out! All fans' forums of other clubs are bristling with the exact same sentiments being expressed here - and that sentiment is for goodness' sake, kick them out, and good riddance!

Now let's get that owed cash off them, get them liquidated, block any "phoenix" club from waltzing back in as if nothing has happened and let's get the rules, the cash and the league much fairer and look forward to good, entertaining, competitive football

Gene

[CropleyWasGod]

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I haven't looked at the accounts of RFC or any other Group (and therefore related) company but it is the case that assets cannot be moved from one entity to another (particularly related) entity unless they are transferred at "fair market value". Directors of companies which may be, or are likely to become insolvent must be very careful not to permit such transactions or to behave recklessly! This may help people follow this more easily!

"(Fraudulent) preferences" or "transactions at undervalue" are things to look at particularly!

The administrators were quite clear this afternoon in saying that the properties were still owned by RFC.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Not the full 24.4 million though, when the first payment was due Craig Whyte sold more tickets to ticketus to cover the first payment. I heard that he initially only sold about 16 million worth of ST but when the first repayment was due (about 9M) he sold more to bring the total money to 24.4M. As the second wave of ST sales was to pay for the first repayment, Whyte never actually had the 24.4M.

It does seem that the only bills Whyte has been paying since he came has been the salaries.

I am not getting this.

The £24 million was advance of 4 years season tickets. That was advanced to RFC/Wavetower. If £16m of season tickets was sold by RFC, then the first repayment (£9m you say) could have easily been covered.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Quite incredible:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-17067141

We are the administrators and we do not know where this money went!!

To be fair to them, they have only been in office 48 hours. It's unreasonable to expect them to know where money paid by a third party, possibly to a fourth party, went. All they can do, with any certainty, is say "we don't have it, and never have had it."

[SteveHFC]

[degenerated]

Strathclyde polis confirm on their Facebook page that they have been passed information on current situation at rangers which they are examining but deem it inappropriate to comment further at this stage.

[CallumLaidlaw]

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Alastair Johnston has asked crown office to conduct a criminal fraud investigation into CW's takeover, as per bbc reporters twitter

And now this -

More developments: Strathclyde Police confirm they have received information on 'ongoing situation' at Rangers being examined by force

[HFC 0-7]

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I am not getting this.

The £24 million was advance of 4 years season tickets. That was advanced to RFC/Wavetower. If £16m of season tickets was sold by RFC, then the first repayment (£9m you say) could have easily been covered.

Or am I misunderstanding you?

What I am saying is the original deal between Whyte and Ticketus wasnt for 24.4 million, it was for about 16 million. The first repayment was due to ticketus and whyte couldnt pay it, so, he sold more tickets to ticketus to raise the cash for the first repayment, therefore Whyte only ever received 16 million or so from ticketus, the remainder was immediately given back to ticketus as per of the first repayment. He has basically taken out another loan secured against ST's to pay a repayment installment of a loan.

[TornadoHibby]

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The administrators were quite clear this afternoon in saying that the properties were still owned by RFC.

I didn't know one way or the other is what I was saying but I felt that some background to what can safely be done with assets of potentially or actually insolvent companies might be helpful in this thread!

[CropleyWasGod]

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What I am saying is the original deal between Whyte and Ticketus wasnt for 24.4 million, it was for about 16 million. The first repayment was due to ticketus and whyte couldnt pay it, so, he sold more tickets to ticketus to raise the cash for the first repayment, therefore Whyte only ever received 16 million or so from ticketus, the remainder was immediately given back to ticketus as per of the first repayment. He has basically taken out another loan secured against ST's to pay a repayment installment of a loan.

We're having this conversation on two threads now. Let's keep it here

So.. Wavetower/CW gets £24m, but gives £8m back as the first repayment, yeah?

So Ticketus are now owed £16m.

CW uses the £16m to partly pay Lloyds TSB, plus another £2m from somewhere.

RFC owes CW £18m now.

RFC also owe Ticketus £16m.

BUT.... Wavetower owe RFC £16m as well for the Ticketus money that they never got.

Yeah??

[CropleyWasGod]

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I didn't know one way or the other is what I was saying but I felt that some background to what can safely be done with assets of potentially or actually insolvent companies might be helpful in this thread!

I get that

There has been so much talk about the properties being transferred out , and I was concerned that it may have happened .. albeit illegally, as you say. Therefore I was pleased that someone asked that question this afternoon, and that the admins nailed that particular myth.

[HFC 0-7]

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We're having this conversation on two threads now. Let's keep it here

So.. Wavetower/CW gets £24m, but gives £8m back as the first repayment, yeah?

So Ticketus are now owed £16m.

CW uses the £16m to partly pay Lloyds TSB, plus another £2m from somewhere.

RFC owes CW £18m now.

RFC also owe Ticketus £16m.

BUT.... Wavetower owe RFC £16m as well for the Ticketus money that they never got.

Yeah??

No, apparently there was a deal with rangers and ticketus for a smaller amount prior to Whyte getting involved, around 8 million. Whyte came in and sold Future ST's and got 16 million from ticketus (Total debt to ticketus now 24 million). Rangers sold 15 million worth of ST's and the deal is meant to mean ticketus get their cash first before rangers, but when ticketus asked for their money rangers could only afford 3.5 million. Whyte agreed a deal with ticketus for an additional amount to cover the outstanding repayment. So at this point Rangers / whyte owe ticketus 24 million with Rangers having to pay 9 million as first installment. Rangers can only afford 3.5 million so they agree a deal with ticketus to sell more future ST's, at this point I am not sure whether rangers paid the 3,5 million or they just agreed that the outstanding repayment is added to the existing debt and secured against even more future ST sales. As I say this is what I have heard but its from a guy I know that used to work for Rangers and still has access to info and people in the know. What I would like to know though is if Rangers got 24 million from ticketus, how much do they actually owe them, I wonder what ticketus' interest is like.

[CropleyWasGod]

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No, apparently there was a deal with rangers and ticketus for a smaller amount prior to Whyte getting involved, around 8 million. Whyte came in and sold Future ST's and got 16 million from ticketus (Total debt to ticketus now 24 million). Rangers sold 15 million worth of ST's and the deal is meant to mean ticketus get their cash first before rangers, but when ticketus asked for their money rangers could only afford 3.5 million. Whyte agreed a deal with ticketus for an additional amount to cover the outstanding repayment. So at this point Rangers / whyte owe ticketus 24 million with Rangers having to pay 9 million as first installment. Rangers can only afford 3.5 million so they agree a deal with ticketus to sell more future ST's, at this point I am not sure whether rangers paid the 3,5 million or they just agreed that the outstanding repayment is added to the existing debt and secured against even more future ST sales. As I say this is what I have heard but its from a guy I know that used to work for Rangers and still has access to info and people in the know. What I would like to know though is if Rangers got 24 million from ticketus, how much do they actually owe them, I wonder what ticketus' interest is like.

Rangers didn't actually get the £24m though, that's the thing. The holding company maybe did, but not the football club.

As far as I can make out, RFC will owe them the full whack......whatever that is!! But Wavetower owe RFC the same amount.

This tells you all you need to know about the Ticketus model..... http://www.principlefirst.co.uk/inve.../octopus-vcts/

[crewetollhibee]

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If, as has been previously suggested, that the ticketus money was either in whytes sweaty little hands or in escrow prior to the deal being concluded then the little shyster has used an asset as collateral to finance the purchase of the huns. I'm sure the relevant authorities will be looking quite closely at that one won't be an FSA investigation it'll be the fraud squad

There's a scene in All The President's Men when Deep Throat says to Woodward, ' follow the money, that's the key'. Something similar here needs to be done; hope the Administrators are on it/up to it.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Rangers supporters at my work are 100% confident that Rangers will come out of this better, still in the SPL because the league will not survive without them. "The SPL are already holding talks to ensure we (Rangers) are still in the league, they would lose too much money in tv rights and other revenue. All the clubs in scotland would fold"

Not a hint of a smile.
Total belief.

I started smirking and ended raging.

Ask them how strong they will feel when Ibrox, Murray Park and the car park are taken off them to pay some of the tax, and when HMRC ask for the rest to be paid off at £5m a year. That's the way the wind is starting to blow, I reckon.

[truehibernian]

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Rangers supporters at my work are 100% confident that Rangers will come out of this better, still in the SPL because the league will not survive without them. "The SPL are already holding talks to ensure we (Rangers) are still in the league, they would lose too much money in tv rights and other revenue. All the clubs in scotland would fold"

Not a hint of a smile.
Total belief.

I started smirking and ended raging.

Their mood swing-o-meter on Rangers Media Bears Den has gone from 'Smug as F***' at around 4pm post media conference to 'In need of new underwear' since around 10pm and the criminal investigation information........they are already hawking ideas to save money.......probably along the lines of a hubcap amnesty or handing in as many Globe juice bottles as they can get there hands (or hauns) on (or oan).

[SurferRosa]

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Having sat back and observed for the past few days now the countless stories, the media frenzy and the hundreds of comments posted on here, I just thought I'd fling my tuppence worth in, for all it's worth.

Rangers have brought this misfortune on themselves entirely by their own doing and therefore should be held fully accountable. For one thing, as a UK taxpayer I am not happy at all that a company has diddled the Government out of at least £50 Million. It is in all our interests to see that this debt is paid back fully for our sakes.

Like many others who have expressed the same opinion here I believe that what Rangers have done over the past two decades, i.e. spending stupendous amounts of money that didn't exist and refusing to pay their appropriate dues with HMRC in order to gain footballing success is nothing short of a swindle. There is no doubt about it it is CHEATING. Cheats break the rules and therefore must be punished by the rules.

I have sat back and digested all of what the talking heads have to say - businessmen, lawyers, pundits, fans, idiot politicians - and I cannot reach any other conclusion that what we have here is undoubtedly an absolutely brilliant thing. For once, we have a fantastic opportunity to completely revamp Scottish football for the better. It is simply an opportunity we cannot and must not let pass us by.

We have an opportunity to destroy the old corrupt ways run by the Glasgow clubs and get back some real football. We have an opportunity to kick out a club which seems to think that it has divine rule in the SPL and has a right to cheat its way into victory and has some sort of right to be in the SPL. We have an opportunity to break an unfair duopoly which has destroyed any competition in the SPL and has hence damaged the game. We have a chance to level things both financially and in football terms. We have a chance to kick out the odious heathen bigotry which has decimated the reputation of our game.

We have a chance to have a fairer, livelier, more competative league, without the baggage of certain teams having an unfair political, financial and footballing upper hand, and without the disgusting ugly bigotry that seems to come with it.

I am furious that we have the likes of idiot Salmond mouthing that the game will be better with Rangers than without. Piffle! Our game is suffering *because* of Rangers. Speak to the fans. The only people who want Rangers to stay are Rangers themselves! Everyone else cannot wait to boot them out! All fans' forums of other clubs are bristling with the exact same sentiments being expressed here - and that sentiment is for goodness' sake, kick them out, and good riddance!

Now let's get that owed cash off them, get them liquidated, block any "phoenix" club from waltzing back in as if nothing has happened and let's get the rules, the cash and the league much fairer and look forward to good, entertaining, competitive football

Gene

An excellent post.
Unfortunately, there are cretins in charge of our game who will ensure that RFC ( in whatever form ) can carry on as normal.

There will be no radical shake-up of our game, despite opportunity knocking....politicians, SFA, media and SPL will endorse cheating and tax avoidance and the blatant criminal manoeuvering of Craig Whyte.
He even managed to get his pals appointed as administrators to ensure no creditor even comes close to getting what they are owed.
RFC will emerge out of this with a host of prospective buyers drooling at the prospect of getting their hands on the club for reletively little and debt free.
Utterly, utterly sickening.

[hibsbollah]

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Having sat back and observed for the past few days now the countless stories, the media frenzy and the hundreds of comments posted on here, I just thought I'd fling my tuppence worth in, for all it's worth.

Rangers have brought this misfortune on themselves entirely by their own doing and therefore should be held fully accountable. For one thing, as a UK taxpayer I am not happy at all that a company has diddled the Government out of at least £50 Million. It is in all our interests to see that this debt is paid back fully for our sakes.

Like many others who have expressed the same opinion here I believe that what Rangers have done over the past two decades, i.e. spending stupendous amounts of money that didn't exist and refusing to pay their appropriate dues with HMRC in order to gain footballing success is nothing short of a swindle. There is no doubt about it it is CHEATING. Cheats break the rules and therefore must be punished by the rules.

I have sat back and digested all of what the talking heads have to say - businessmen, lawyers, pundits, fans, idiot politicians - and I cannot reach any other conclusion that what we have here is undoubtedly an absolutely brilliant thing. For once, we have a fantastic opportunity to completely revamp Scottish football for the better. It is simply an opportunity we cannot and must not let pass us by.

We have an opportunity to destroy the old corrupt ways run by the Glasgow clubs and get back some real football. We have an opportunity to kick out a club which seems to think that it has divine rule in the SPL and has a right to cheat its way into victory and has some sort of right to be in the SPL. We have an opportunity to break an unfair duopoly which has destroyed any competition in the SPL and has hence damaged the game. We have a chance to level things both financially and in football terms. We have a chance to kick out the odious heathen bigotry which has decimated the reputation of our game.

We have a chance to have a fairer, livelier, more competative league, without the baggage of certain teams having an unfair political, financial and footballing upper hand, and without the disgusting ugly bigotry that seems to come with it.

I am furious that we have the likes of idiot Salmond mouthing that the game will be better with Rangers than without. Piffle! Our game is suffering *because* of Rangers. Speak to the fans. The only people who want Rangers to stay are Rangers themselves! Everyone else cannot wait to boot them out! All fans' forums of other clubs are bristling with the exact same sentiments being expressed here - and that sentiment is for goodness' sake, kick them out, and good riddance!

Now let's get that owed cash off them, get them liquidated, block any "phoenix" club from waltzing back in as if nothing has happened and let's get the rules, the cash and the league much fairer and look forward to good, entertaining, competitive football

Gene

Great post.

[EuanH78]

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An excellent post.
Unfortunately, there are cretins in charge of our game who will ensure that RFC ( in whatever form ) can carry on as normal.

There will be no radical shake-up of our game, despite opportunity knocking....politicians, SFA, media and SPL will endorse cheating and tax avoidance and the blatant criminal manoeuvering of Craig Whyte.
He even managed to get his pals appointed as administrators to ensure no creditor even comes close to getting what they are owed.
RFC will emerge out of this with a host of prospective buyers drooling at the prospect of getting their hands on the club for reletively little and debt free.
Utterly, utterly sickening.

I hope not. With the news that the Police are investigating now I'm hoping more and more info starts coming out that makes it too hot for anyone (SPL, SFA, Government, even the media) to attempt to brush over but guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Geo_1875]

I'd like to know if RFC have found money down the back of the settee to pay policing costs for this weekends fixture or if Strathclyde polis are taking an IOU.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I'd like to know if RFC have found money down the back of the settee to pay policing costs for this weekends fixture or if Strathclyde polis are taking an IOU.

The money will come out of the takings. They will make a profit on the game, which will go towards the other creditors.

[Leithenhibby]

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The money will come out of the takings. They will make a profit on the game, which will go towards the other creditors.

I'm I right in saying that ST will be valid at Ibrox this Saturday?

With some 15,000 walk-up's, plus all the catering I would think that they have a few bob in the tin ...

[CropleyWasGod]

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I'm I right in saying that ST will be valid at Ibrox this Saturday?

With some 15,000 walk-up's, plus all the catering I would think that they have a few bob in the tin ...

I think you're right... haven't heard anything to the contrary.

It makes perfect sense to have the game on. There will be a big gate (supporter solidarity and all that), and a fair chunk will be raised.

[Leithenhibby]

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I think you're right... haven't heard anything to the contrary.

It makes perfect sense to have the game on. There will be a big gate (supporter solidarity and all that), and a fair chunk will be raised.

That was my first thoughts when this broke.

As any other clubs fans would do, rally round and try and make a stance. As much as I loath that lot they will have a huge support this weekend, but it will still not be enough

[Geo_1875]

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That was my first thoughts when this broke.

As any other clubs fans would do, rally round and try and make a stance. As much as I loath that lot they will have a huge support this weekend, but it will still not be enough

So basically the police (and RFC) are hoping there is a big enough crowd to cover all expenses. Do you think they'd be so understanding for anybody else?

[CropleyWasGod]

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So basically the police (and RFC) are hoping there is a big enough crowd to cover all expenses. Do you think they'd be so understanding for anybody else?

RFC made assurances to SP that they would be able to cover their costs. They made those assurances on the basis of their expectation of the crowd size. SP obviously took that in good faith.

If it were anyone else, the police would assess the situation in the same way. The margins might well be tighter, though, and the police might be less convinced.

It's not about "understanding", it's about commercial realities.

[Leithenhibby]

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So basically the police (and RFC) are hoping there is a big enough crowd to cover all expenses. Do you think they'd be so understanding for anybody else?

As I have said on many posts before. When WM was trying to take us over I recall many teams supporting us, and Yes, many politicians also. I'm in no way supporting that mob, but I do think they will raise enough money to cover expenses on Saturday...