Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

[s.a.m]

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Am I missing something or do season ticket fans not generally get in for 'free' given that they've already paid for their season tickets??

I know nowt about this, but I'm assuming that the season tickets are now redundant, and their holders are now creditors? I remember reading something similar about gift tokens, and other sorts of credit, when retail chains have collapsed.

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Eh? Where did I say that? I was talking about our ability to compete in Europe, you know, something ambitious footballing nations want to do.

If we want players of a decent standard in Scotland then we have to pay decent wages. Don't we? Without the TV money the ability of our clubs to do that will be limited.

I'd probably agree with you if I thought that the money we have at present was enabling us too compete - but as far as I can see, Scottish clubs have been using the money that we get to sign mediocre journeymen, and the standard that we are getting is on a downward spiral. The status quo doesn't appear to be working. I can understand the concerns that people have about a future with much-reduced income, but can it be any worse? If this is the event that forces clubs to invest in development, then it may turn out to be a good thing.

[marinello59]

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Yes we are at that stage. The current set up ensures that two clubs can pay over £30 million per year in wages whilst the rest of us can muster about £4 million per year at best. That's the reality and any change to that would be welcome, whether its with the Old Firm or whithout them.

Just saying we can't change the current set up because of TV money is crazy, we have that now and it's not doing anything for competition or furthering us in Europe.

It would be even worse without it. A Scottish team would never be seen in the Champions League again. We all want to see more competition but surely we also want to see our national sport make a mark outside of our own borders.

[Haymaker]

Didnt we lose the SKY money before?

We survived once, we can survive again.

[GreenPJ]

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So we are competing now with the TV money are we?

I think the issue is that all clubs (possibly with the exception of ICT?) have existing debt that needs to be serviced and can't be serviced on matchday income alone. With reduced attendances and reduced TV money they would have no way of servicing that debt so even if they were up challenging for second they could still be in deep trouble. Unless the collective Scottish football debt can be restructured somehow (government guarantee or some preferential lending) I can't help but think the Chairmen and SPL are only ever going to vote for whatever is going to bring them the most money.

[PaulSmith]

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It would be even worse without it. A Scottish team would never be seen in the Champions League again. We all want to see more competition but surely we also want to see our national sport make a mark outside of our own borders.

There's a next to zero chance of seeing another Scottish club in the Champs league with the current TV deal. I'd maybe even argue that if we're forced to get back to basics then through time we may be in a better position than other Euro countries should UEFA push through with vigour their financial fair play settings.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I think the issue is that all clubs (possibly with the exception of ICT?) have existing debt that needs to be serviced and can't be serviced on matchday income alone. With reduced attendances and reduced TV money they would have no way of servicing that debt so even if they were up challenging for second they could still be in deep trouble. Unless the collective Scottish football debt can be restructured somehow (government guarantee or some preferential lending) I can't help but think the Chairmen and SPL are only ever going to vote for whatever is going to bring them the most money.

I am willing to bet that our Board are already working on a Business Plan on the basis of "no Rangers next season". That would be prudent. I would be interested in seeing how their projections pan out.

[CropleyWasGod]

Can someone remind me how much the Sky money is, and how it is split?

[GreenPJ]

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I am willing to bet that our Board are already working on a Business Plan on the basis of "no Rangers next season". That would be prudent. I would be interested in seeing how their projections pan out.

I hope they are and as you say will be interesting to see what those projections look like but am guessing they won't be good reading.

[hibeesdude]

stupid question alert......

the admin order is based round unpayed £9m in NI/PAYE apparently, that being the case why was it not paid
a) to pay other debts, pay the players - combo thereof
or
b) they just didnt pay it to help force the admin issue


if i'm correct one of the administrators first jobs is to see if the business is a going concern or not if the answer is a) then surely its an easy decision no money coming in to pay due debts = not going concern.
if the answer is b) then???? criminal proceedings?

[HibbyAndy]

Im no liking the noises coming from some of the journalists from various tv channels, Im getting the vibe these c unts are going to get away pretty much scot free with it


It will be an absolute hanging offence if these bigoted morons get away with a pishy wee points deduction and their millions of debt wiped out.

[ancienthibby]

Reporting Scotland now saying that Lord John McFall is suggesting the FSA should hold an investigation into CW's takeover.

Bet that was not in the CW MasterPlan.

[carlos70]

PF on Radio Scotland's Sportsound playing the "Scottish football needs Rangers" card.

[Hibby Hippy]

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Can someone remind me how much the Sky money is, and how it is split?

I think its something along the lines of 50% evenly spread over all clubs,25% split up according to league position,25% split between live games broadcast.i dont know actual figures but it looks weighted in favour of rantic(top two places + most live matches broadcast)

[CropleyWasGod]

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I hope they are and as you say will be interesting to see what those projections look like but am guessing they won't be good reading.

Hmmm... I am not so sure that it will be as bad as some of the scaremongers would have us believe. 2 visits from Rangers.... a big drop in income, yes, but also a big drop in police and stewarding costs.

TV money... dunno..that is why I asked the question about the split.

Potential increase in walk-ups if we're able to compete for 2nd and 3rd rather than 4th?

[EuanH78]

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Im no liking the noises coming from some of the journalists from various tv channels, Im getting the vibe these c unts are going to get away pretty much scot free with it


It will be an absolute hanging offence if these bigoted morons get away with a pishy wee points deduction and their millions of debt wiped out.

Been having that feeling since yesterday. That's certainly what the media is driving for. Though, its really up the SPL member clubs. I guess all we can do (and fans of other teams as well) is fire off emails to our club about how we feel.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Reporting Scotland now saying that Lord John McFall is suggesting the FSA should hold an investigation into CW's takeover.

Bet that was not in the CW MasterPlan.

Alastair Johnson has already asked the Insolvency Service to investigate.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Been having that feeling since yesterday. That's certainly what the media is driving for. Though, its really up the SPL member clubs. I guess all we can do (and fans of other teams as well) is fire off emails to our club about how we feel.

Would that we had so much power You are forgetting about the due process of law....

[ancienthibby]

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Alastair Johnson has already asked the Insolvency Service to investigate.

Indeedie!

But this is a call from a well-respected heavy-hitting Parliamentarian - the issue is being ratcheted up!

[blackpoolhibs]

That herts tosser Salmond said on the news, the most important thing is the survival of Rangers football club.

Is it just me, but i'd have thought the most important thing is the payment of the tax, the tax that keeps this clown in work?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Indeedie!

But this is a call from a well-respected heavy-hitting Parliamentarian - the issue is being ratcheted up!

Yup.

I think the MP's expenses nonsense and the phone-hacking stuff have had a positive effect in that "transparency" is a sexy word now. The general public are more cynical and media-savvy than ever now, and those in power and the media know that.

[stokesmessiah]

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You have read the threads on here re life witouth the OF? There's plenty posters on here stated we couldn't live with them. Don't see it myself - I think the lack of competition has the game dying a slow and painful one. I genuinely think the game would improve without them.

TQM it is not often i agree with you but on this one i do. The OF have strangled the life out of the football in this country and without them i think things would be better.

[CropleyWasGod]

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That herts tosser Salmond said on the news, the most important thing is the survival of Rangers football club.

Is it just me, but i'd have thought the most important thing is the payment of the tax, the tax that keeps this clown in work?

There is some sense in what he says. It is often better to save a business, and ensure a future revenue source for the Treasury (insert appropriate cynical smiley here), rather than throw people on to the dole and pay them benefits.

However, £49m.....

[James70]

Billy Dodds - "The Rangers players must be going through hell"

Come off it, any players that get released will be able to find another club without much trouble and it's not like they're earning the minimum wage.

[Hibrandenburg]

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I know nowt about this, but I'm assuming that the season tickets are now redundant, and their holders are now creditors? I remember reading something similar about gift tokens, and other sorts of credit, when retail chains have collapsed.



I'd probably agree with you if I thought that the money we have at present was enabling us too compete - but as far as I can see, Scottish clubs have been using the money that we get to sign mediocre journeymen, and the standard that we are getting is on a downward spiral. The status quo doesn't appear to be working. I can understand the concerns that people have about a future with much-reduced income, but can it be any worse? If this is the event that forces clubs to invest in development, then it may turn out to be a good thing.

So in other words they've not only ripped off HMRC but also their own fans?

Know what I'd tell them to do if they asked me to pay again for something I'd already paid for.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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There is some sense in what he says. It is often better to save a business, and ensure a future revenue source for the Treasury (insert appropriate cynical smiley here), rather than throw people on to the dole and pay them benefits.

However, £49m.....

Best outcome is that they survive and pay back the tax due (even if it is spread over 10 years, say).

[EuanH78]

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Would that we had so much power You are forgetting about the due process of law....

I mean, I fully expect them to dodge the tax bullet and though it's cynical in the extreme I'm not sure theres anything illegal about it, pretty morally skewed though. I mean about the pheonix companies re-admittance to the SPL, if that comes to pass they really will have got away with everything and thats something so unpalatable to me I dont think I could continue to support Hibs while they remain part of scottish football (not that they have an alternative).
The thought of which saddens me quite a bit, Hibs are a clean and well run club but if the games rigged whats the point?

[CropleyWasGod]

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stupid question alert......

the admin order is based round unpayed £9m in NI/PAYE apparently, that being the case why was it not paid
a) to pay other debts, pay the players - combo thereof
or
b) they just didnt pay it to help force the admin issue


if i'm correct one of the administrators first jobs is to see if the business is a going concern or not if the answer is a) then surely its an easy decision no money coming in to pay due debts = not going concern.
if the answer is b) then???? criminal proceedings?

Finally got round to answering your question

I suspect the former. Often, if a business has cash flow problems, it's the Revenue debts that get shelved first. Wages and suppliers have to be paid in order to keep the income coming in.

However, this is CW. All assumptions are suspect! Many have said that administration was always his intention,

[blackpoolhibs]

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There is some sense in what he says. It is often better to save a business, and ensure a future revenue source for the Treasury (insert appropriate cynical smiley here), rather than throw people on to the dole and pay them benefits.

However, £49m.....

I dont see any sense in what he says, as in essence he's saying its fine for all of us to screw each other and not pay the taxes we owe, how does that work?

[CropleyWasGod]

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I mean, I fully expect them to dodge the tax bullet and though it's cynical in the extreme I'm not sure theres anything illegal about it, pretty morally skewed though. I mean about the pheonix companies re-admittance to the SPL, if that comes to pass they really will have got away with everything and thats something so unpalatable to me I dont think I could continue to support Hibs while they remain part of scottish football (not that they have an alternative).
The thought of which saddens me quite a bit, Hibs are a clean and well run club but if the games rigged whats the point?

Ah okay...understood

[CropleyWasGod]

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I dont see any sense in what he says, as in essence he's saying its fine for all of us to screw each other and not pay the taxes we owe, how does that work?

I don't think... and hope he isn't... saying that. He will be coming from the point of view of the lost jobs, the community stuff..etc etc.

Of course, in an independent Scotland, our tax authorities would never have allowed things to get this bad.....