Generic Sevco / Rangers meltdown thread

**NOLA** · 13-02-2012 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY

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Looks like Murray has left Rangers without a leg to stand on!

**~~PaulSmith~~** · 13-02-2012 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Albion Hibs

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I am not in the know about these situations, but it would appear that they go into adminstration, loose 10 points in a season they are not winning anything anyway, keep their stadium, keep their players, keep their training ground. Have to get a new name, have just signed a new player yet as tax payers we are footing the bill that they will leave for walking away from their tax obligations....****.....and all done at the expense of honest football fans who have seen they buy leagues and trophies over the years.

I hope each and every one of them is sitting in the corner of their govan slum hugging their picture of "mum" aka the queen.

It's not as cut and dried as it would appear IMO.

Some further Q&A's in here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-17018226

**ggth** · 13-02-2012 07:55 PM

the tax man has lodged several winding up orders for the hertz recently, i am sure they will do the same to rangers, if they loose the tax case

**heartbreaker** · 13-02-2012 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by John_the_angus_hibby

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The sickening thing (after I have spent the last 2 hours dancing and singing and watching as much news items on it as u can) is that if any semblance if a Rangers team comes out of this; all of us have subsidised their last 10 years of success(!) without much payback from that bunch of knuckle dragging neanderthals!

Sent from another universe!

Correst. There is a real question to be asked here. Scottish clubs which are properly run have been denied European competition essentially by a failed charity case enjoying financial doping by the taxpayer.

***Winston Ingram*** · 13-02-2012 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by ggth

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the tax man has lodged several winding up orders for the hertz recently, i am sure they will do the same to rangers, if they loose the tax case

From what I understand Hertz have never topped a million. The one lodged against the Huns is £49m and Criag Whyte has tonight said it could rise to £75m which is a tad different

On top of that the HMRC made a very public erse of themselves last week with the Redknapp/Mandaric trial. They're unlikely to be to keen to be seen to do the same again

**~~PaulSmith~~** · 13-02-2012 08:15 PM

The only bit to focus on in regards the CVA is if the UNsecured creditors agree to the CVA, in essence this is the wholly down to HMRC.

In previous situations with 'Well, Livi and Dundee was HMRC involved up to that level of liability?

In fact read this, better than trying to 2nd guess anything..seems pretty factual but not sure how balanced it is.

http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.co...va-nae-chance/

***BSEJVT*** · 13-02-2012 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by EasterRoad4Ever

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If they lose the HMRC case, Administration will not save them. They will be liquidated and have to start all over again with applications to the league. Ibrox will become public property (probably owned by HMRC - i.e. you and me - so we could in theory go for a kick about on a weekday

Much as I would love this to be the case, it has next to no chance of happening.

Whatever Whyte is he is no-one's fool.

Wouldnt be surprised if they have no assets at all barr their playing staff with all the "bricks and mortar assets" held separately for "tax reasons".

A few token numpties will be sold / freed as a gesture of contrition.

No way would Whyte have taken on Inland Revenue gamble without master plan behind it, his advisers would get sued to hell and back if he had.

Rangers will go into Admin

Whyte will buy them at xp in the pound. Inland Revenue will get severely stiffed, Murray and Whyte will walk away relatively unscathed

They will have a share issue which the Rangers supporters will back in their thousands, giving Whyte all the costs back for buying them out of Admin.

He will then either rent them or sell them Ipox and walk away minted, having done you and I over like a kipper and no doubt have acquired some other tangible reward from David Murray for hauling his arse out the fire.

**~~PaulSmith~~** · 13-02-2012 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by BSEJVT

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Much as I would love this to be the case, it has next to no chance of happening.

Whatever Whyte is he is no-one's fool.

Wouldnt be surprised if they have no assets at all barr their playing staff with all the "bricks and mortar assets" held separately for "tax reasons".

A few token numpties will be sold / freed as a gesture of contrition.

No way would Whyte have taken on Inland Revenue gamble without master plan behind it, his advisers would get sued to hell and back if he had.

Rangers will go into Admin

Whyte will buy them at xp in the pound. Inland Revenue will get severely stiffed, Murray and Whyte will walk away relatively unscathed

They will have a share issue which the Rangers supporters will back in their thousands, giving Whyte all the costs back for buying them out of Admin.

He will then either rent them or sell them Ipox and walk away minted, having done you and I over like a kipper and no doubt have acquired some other tangible reward from David Murray for hauling his arse out the fire.

With respect I'd say he was a chancer who has been caught previously and proved unworthy in two courts now.

Do you believe that the taxman is just going to walk away from this and give a green light for tax evasion on a grand scale, it just doesn't happen and never will do. He's tried it once with HMRC and got caught hence his 7 years disqualification.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 13-02-2012 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by BSEJVT

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Much as I would love this to be the case, it has next to no chance of happening.

Whatever Whyte is he is no-one's fool.

Wouldnt be surprised if they have no assets at all barr their playing staff with all the "bricks and mortar assets" held separately for "tax reasons".

A few token numpties will be sold / freed as a gesture of contrition.

No way would Whyte have taken on Inland Revenue gamble without master plan behind it, his advisers would get sued to hell and back if he had.

Rangers will go into Admin

Whyte will buy them at xp in the pound. Inland Revenue will get severely stiffed, Murray and Whyte will walk away relatively unscathed

They will have a share issue which the Rangers supporters will back in their thousands, giving Whyte all the costs back for buying them out of Admin.

He will then either rent them or sell them Ipox and walk away minted, having done you and I over like a kipper and no doubt have acquired some other tangible reward from David Murray for hauling his arse out the fire.

RFC own the properties. CW has security for his loan over them.

**frazeHFC** · 13-02-2012 08:28 PM

Sorry if already posted, but:

***Eyrie*** · 13-02-2012 08:30 PM

Sadly it's too much to hope that they will drag the whinging tims down with them.

However given that Whyte knew that the tax case could go against the Huns, I find it hard to believe that this administration is not part of his cunning plan to avoid having to pay out.

**Dr Jimmy** · 13-02-2012 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by frazeHFC

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Sorry if already posted, but:

The only item in Chubby's trolley is a ****in lettuce! Who is she trying to kid.

***BSEJVT*** · 13-02-2012 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by PaulSmith

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With respect I'd say he was a chancer who has been caught previously and proved unworthy in two courts now.

Do you believe that the taxman is just going to walk away from this and give a green light for tax evasion on a grand scale, it just doesn't happen and never will do. He's tried it once with HMRC and got caught hence his 7 years disqualification.

With equal respect to you it is not impossible to be no-one's fool and a chancer, they quite often go hand in hand.

If I read Whyte correctly his 7 year disqualification would mean nothing to him, this is his ticket to the big money game.

No I dont believe the taxman will willingly walk away far from it, but even the taxman cannot get blood from a stone.

Whyte has had a long time to plan this before even committing to purchase Rangers, Do you think he was going to play heads or tails over a tax liability that could stretch to £75m+

**Cropley10** · 13-02-2012 08:38 PM

I "believe" HMRC will need to agree to a CVA. Meaning it's not a done deal.

***I'm_cabbaged*** · 13-02-2012 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Max

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The only item in Chubby's trolley is a ****in lettuce! Who is she trying to kid.

That's to go on the half dozen boxes of frozen doner kebabs that going to get ;)

**SunshineOnLeith** · 13-02-2012 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by BSEJVT

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With equal respect to you it is not impossible to be no-one's fool and a chancer, they quite often go hand in hand.

If I read Whyte correctly his 7 year disqualification would mean nothing to him, this is his ticket to the big money game.

No I dont believe the taxman will willingly walk away far from it, but even the taxman cannot get blood from a stone.

Whyte has had a long time to plan this before even committing to purchase Rangers, Do you think he was going to play heads or tails over a tax liability that could stretch to £75m+

Whyte will get paid whatever happens, he has the only secured debt. The issue is what happens to RFC. It's extremely unlikely that HMRC will get the full £50/75m (depending on what reports you read), so the plan is to force HMRC into taking a settlement now rather than get little/nothing in a liquidation. Thankfully, it's extremely unlikely that HMRC will go for such a deal, as it would set a horrible precedent in their practice.

***grunt*** · 13-02-2012 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by PaulSmith

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It's not as cut and dried as it would appear IMO.
Some further Q&A's in here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-17018226

Clearly lots of thought and preparation put into this article by the BBC...

"Administrators are then in charge of the company and, while they're in charge, creditors cannot expect to get payments they expected."

**~~PaulSmith~~** · 13-02-2012 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by BSEJVT

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With equal respect to you it is not impossible to be no-one's fool and a chancer, they quite often go hand in hand.

If I read Whyte correctly his 7 year disqualification would mean nothing to him, this is his ticket to the big money game.

No I dont believe the taxman will willingly walk away far from it, but even the taxman cannot get blood from a stone.

Whyte has had a long time to plan this before even committing to purchase Rangers, Do you think he was going to play heads or tails over a tax liability that could stretch to £75m+

Depends on what you believe he personally has to lose (or gain) on the likely scenario that HMRC do not agree to the CVA. Is it not feasible to see him own Ibrox, Murray Park and start up a new co Rangers 2012 and sell it for several millions of pounds to an ex director such as Paul Murray or float the club on the stock exchange, all in exchange for £1 in hard cash that he used to buy from MIM.

Rangers are re-founded and start debt free agreed and Whyte gets his £££ but the old Rangers are no more, no Europe for 3 years and it would take a lot to convince the other clubs that Rangers should automatically be granted entrance back into the SPL as we know it via first gaining a new SFA licence.

This I would argue would be Whyte's ultimate end game.

***BurghHibby*** · 13-02-2012 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Max

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The only item in Chubby's trolley is a ****in lettuce! Who is she trying to kid.

Its no a lettuce, its one of the guys gangrene infected he haws!

***CropleyWasGod*** · 13-02-2012 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by PaulSmith

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Depends on what you believe he personally has to lose (or gain) on the likely scenario that HMRC do not agree to the CVA. Is it not feasible to see him own Ibrox, Murray Park and start up a new co Rangers 2012 and sell it for several millions of pounds to an ex director such as Paul Murray or float the club on the stock exchange, all in exchange for £1 in hard cash that he used to buy from MIM.

Rangers are re-founded and start debt free agreed and Whyte gets his £££ but the old Rangers are no more, no Europe for 3 years and it would take a lot to convince the other clubs that Rangers should automatically be granted entrance back into the SPL as we know it via first gaining a new SFA licence.

This I would argue would be Whyte's ultimate end game.

Slightly confused here. What about the £18m he paid to Lloyd's TSB? He would have to sell the properties for more than that to be ahead, no?

**Capt Mainwaring** · 13-02-2012 09:10 PM

Apologies if someone has already called this out, but Rangers going into Administration presents a massive opportunity for the other non Old Firm clubs.

If Administration means they have to re-apply for SPL membership then it's a must that in return for this membership has to come with the following conditions:

Removal of the 11 - 1 voting rule (effectively giving the Old Firm a veto on change)

Re-distribution of TV and commercial income to provide better even spread across all SPL clubs

Might also involve a points deduction penalty for next 3 seasons and certainly make sure that they were no allowed to take a European slot regardless of where they finished in the league - again say for next 3 years

Time for the SPL clubs to grow some balls and take collective advantage

**~~PaulSmith~~** · 13-02-2012 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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Slightly confused here. What about the £18m he paid to Lloyd's TSB? He would have to sell the properties for more than that to be ahead, no?

lol, of course. Sorry any monies raised over the initial £18m he used to pay Lloyds would be 'his' with a new co Rangers.

**Cameron1875** · 13-02-2012 09:12 PM

Real radios first two songs of the hour have been i gotta feeling by black eyed peas then keep the faith by bon jovi. Dj is surely at it!

**~~PaulSmith~~** · 13-02-2012 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Capt Mainwaring

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Apologies if someone has already called this out, but Rangers going into Administration presents a massive opportunity for the other non Old Firm clubs.

If Administration means they have to re-apply for SPL membership then it's a must that in return for this membership has to come with the following conditions:

Removal of the 11 - 1 voting rule (effectively giving the Old Firm a veto on change)

Re-distribution of TV and commercial income to provide better even spread across all SPL clubs

Might also involve a points deduction penalty for next 3 seasons and certainly make sure that they were no allowed to take a European slot regardless of where they finished in the league - again say for next 3 years

Time for the SPL clubs to grow some balls and take collective advantage

It doesn't.

**Abbeyhill41** · 13-02-2012 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Dashing Bob S

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It would be great to have more human stories behind the financial crisis like this one.

Perhaps we should be giving away free rope in the Hibs shop.....

***CropleyWasGod*** · 13-02-2012 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by PaulSmith

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lol, of course. Sorry any monies raised over the initial £18m he used to pay Lloyds would be 'his' with a new co Rangers.

...okay.

As someone else said... somewhere in the many threads.....a lot hinges on the values of Ibrox and Murray Park.

More than £18m?? Nae idea....

**~~PaulSmith~~** · 13-02-2012 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod

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...okay.

As someone else said... somewhere in the many threads.....a lot hinges on the values of Ibrox and Murray Park.

More than £18m?? Nae idea....

Also did he actually use his own cash to buy the club through Wavetower or did he use the Ticketus money? (this is secured by one of his other companies but if this were to tragically fail as well Ticketus would see £18m doon the swanny?!)

**Twa Cairpets** · 13-02-2012 09:23 PM

If Whyte mortgaged the ST for 4 years to raise the money to pay Lloyds (which I think is broadly right but may be entirely wrong), and this money is secured against another of Whytes companies, then am I right in thinking that Rangers will make no money from the sale of ST's for the next 4 years? If this is the case then NewHun Co will effectively have no money from this source for this time period, which even if they start with a clean slate means they're still in the deep keech.

Please feel free to point out where I'm hopelessly confused on this.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 13-02-2012 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by PaulSmith

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Also did he actually use his own cash to buy the club through Wavetower or did he use the Ticketus money? (this is secured by one of his other companies but if this were to tragically fail as well Ticketus would see £18m doon the swanny?!)

The Ticketus money belongs to Rangers, and should have gone to them. If he used that to fund his purchase, then his debt is (depending on the amount) partly or fully wiped out.

For their part, Ticketus.... is their debt secured? I thought I read that it was secured against future season ticket sales. If it is, they then have first dibs in an administration. If not, then their debt goes into the pot with everybody else.