Neil Lennon

[CropleyWasGod]

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That's exactly what I said when I heard what he had been charged with.

There is no way that the "religiously aggravated" part of the charge can be proved beyond reasonable doubt in court, unless someone's heard him say something like this at the time of the attack.

My thoughts, too.

But, the police will have taken statements before charging him. So, presumably someone (Lennon or Thompson, or both) HAS said that there was something said. Of course, the "other side" will say "aye, but they would say that, fenian etc etc..."

[FranckSuzy]

OK, while I'd never condone what has happened to Neil Lennon, and I'm not only referring here to him or Celtic but is it just me that's pretty tired of the PC brigade appearing everytime something goes wrong? On this occasion, Lennon surely has to look at his own behaviour, which, IMHO, hasn't helped matters. Laws against discrimination, be it racial, religious, sexual, abilty etc, were introduced to protect the vulnerable-not to prevent adults taking responsibilty for their own actions. I see it all the time in my work "you can't say that"/take them to task etc because they're Asian, gay etc (you get the jist). Why not? If I have underperformed I am rightly told so it should be a level playing field. Celtic must stop the inflammatory nature of interviews and all of this 'they're out to get us' mentality. Some of this is because of what Neil Lennon/Celtic have said and done NOT because they are a catholic club. This takes away from genuine occasions where innocent people are targeted. It should not give people an excuse to behave in an offensive manner because others are too scared to complain/react in this PC climate.

As has been mentioned, how can they say that it is religious bigotry? Not just assault? What about Lennon/McCoist? Why was that not classed as 'religious'? There has to be a level playing field.

[HibbyAndy]

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OK, while I'd never condone what has happened to Neil Lennon, and I'm not only referring here to him or Celtic but is it just me that's pretty tired of the PC brigade appearing everytime something goes wrong? On this occasion, Lennon surely has to look at his own behaviour, which, IMHO, hasn't helped matters. Laws against discrimination, be it racial, religious, sexual, abilty etc, were introduced to protect the vulnerable-not to prevent adults taking responsibilty for their own actions. I see it all the time in my work "you can't say that"/take them to task etc because they're Asian, gay etc (you get the jist). Why not? If I have underperformed I am rightly told so it should be a level playing field. Celtic must stop the inflammatory nature of interviews and all of this 'they're out to get us' mentality. Some of this is because of what Neil Lennon/Celtic have said and done NOT because they are a catholic club. This takes away from genuine occasions where innocent people are targeted. It should not give people an excuse to behave in an offensive manner because others are too scared to complain/react in this PC climate.

As has been mentioned, how can they say that it is religious bigotry? Not just assault? What about Lennon/McCoist? Why was that not classed as 'religious'? There has to be a level playing field.

Comin oan Facebook for a laugh?

[CropleyWasGod]

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OK, while I'd never condone what has happened to Neil Lennon, and I'm not only referring here to him or Celtic but is it just me that's pretty tired of the PC brigade appearing everytime something goes wrong? On this occasion, Lennon surely has to look at his own behaviour, which, IMHO, hasn't helped matters. Laws against discrimination, be it racial, religious, sexual, abilty etc, were introduced to protect the vulnerable-not to prevent adults taking responsibilty for their own actions. I see it all the time in my work "you can't say that"/take them to task etc because they're Asian, gay etc (you get the jist). Why not? If I have underperformed I am rightly told so it should be a level playing field. Celtic must stop the inflammatory nature of interviews and all of this 'they're out to get us' mentality. Some of this is because of what Neil Lennon/Celtic have said and done NOT because they are a catholic club. This takes away from genuine occasions where innocent people are targeted. It should not give people an excuse to behave in an offensive manner because others are too scared to complain/react in this PC climate.

As has been mentioned, how can they say that it is religious bigotry? Not just assault? What about Lennon/McCoist? Why was that not classed as 'religious'? There has to be a level playing field.

I'm not aware that the famous PC Brigade have come out here. The people who have spoken out, here and elsewhere, are people who abhor this kind of attack. That is all.

As to your asking "how can they say that it is religious bigotry?", see my previous post. They will have charged him on the basis of the evidence they have. ie statements from those who witnessed it at close quarters.

[FranckSuzy]

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Comin oan Facebook for a laugh?

Andrew, I am hurt and feel discriminated against that you have not even considered my post above and have instead, cheapened it with facebook comments. Where's that lawyers number?

Aye, ok then

[HibbyAndy]

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Andrew, I am hurt and feel discriminated against that you have not even considered my post above and have instead, cheapened it with facebook comments. Where's that lawyers number?

Aye, ok then

A did read it huni honest


Moan oan

[FranckSuzy]

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I'm not aware that the famous PC Brigade have come out here. The people who have spoken out, here and elsewhere, are people who abhor this kind of attack. That is all.

As to your asking "how can they say that it is religious bigotry?", see my previous post. They will have charged him on the basis of the evidence they have. ie statements from those who witnessed it at close quarters.

Ok, thanks. Got that now.

IMHO, it is the PC brigade regards to some of it. NL seems to have been absolved of all blame (not talking about last night or bullets etc as that is indefensible) when it has been his behaviour that has caused some of the problems. I mean, was it wise to cup your ears to the Rangers fans for example? Or allude to Hearts not trying against Rangers? Not exactly wise as far as I am concerned.

[marinello59]

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OK, while I'd never condone what has happened to Neil Lennon, and I'm not only referring here to him or Celtic but is it just me that's pretty tired of the PC brigade appearing everytime something goes wrong? On this occasion, Lennon surely has to look at his own behaviour, which, IMHO, hasn't helped matters. Laws against discrimination, be it racial, religious, sexual, abilty etc, were introduced to protect the vulnerable-not to prevent adults taking responsibilty for their own actions. I see it all the time in my work "you can't say that"/take them to task etc because they're Asian, gay etc (you get the jist). Why not? If I have underperformed I am rightly told so it should be a level playing field. Celtic must stop the inflammatory nature of interviews and all of this 'they're out to get us' mentality. Some of this is because of what Neil Lennon/Celtic have said and done NOT because they are a catholic club. This takes away from genuine occasions where innocent people are targeted. It should not give people an excuse to behave in an offensive manner because others are too scared to complain/react in this PC climate.

As has been mentioned, how can they say that it is religious bigotry? Not just assault? What about Lennon/McCoist? Why was that not classed as 'religious'? There has to be a level playing field.

Sorry, what are you trying to say there? Should people speak out about offensive behaviour or not.

[FranckSuzy]

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Sorry, what are you trying to say there? Should people speak out about offensive behaviour or not.

What I'm trying to say, perhaps badly, is that when someone has behaved badly, it should not be ignored i.e. Lennon not being pulled up for some of the inflammatory things he has said/done because it would be seen as anti-catholic. Why can't it just be seen as unwise/controversial/misguided etc. Again, not talking about last night's debarcle as that was disgusting.

[Sir David Gray]

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My thoughts, too.

But, the police will have taken statements before charging him. So, presumably someone (Lennon or Thompson, or both) HAS said that there was something said. Of course, the "other side" will say "aye, but they would say that, fenian etc etc..."

IIRC, all that the police need to do to be able to charge someone with a "hate crime" is for them to ask the victim whether they believed the attack to be motivated by a hatred of their race, religion, sexuality etc etc.

I'm not saying that is definitely what's happened in this case but maybe the police asked Lennon whether or not he thought the guy attacked him because he's a Roman Catholic. If he told them that he thought he had been attacked because of his religion, then I believe that would be enough for them to charge the guy with "religiously aggravated" assault, without actually hearing him say anything at all.

If this is the case, I don't see how this can possibly result in a conviction in court.

[CropleyWasGod]

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IIRC, all that the police need to do to be able to charge someone with a "hate crime" is for them to ask the victim whether they believed the attack to be motivated by a hatred of their race, religion, sexuality etc etc.

I'm not saying that is definitely what's happened in this case but maybe the police asked Lennon whether or not he thought the guy attacked him because he's a Roman Catholic. If he told them that he thought he had been attacked because of his religion, then I believe that would be enough for them to charge the guy with "religiously aggravated" assault, without actually hearing him say anything at all.

If this is the case, I don't see how this can possibly result in a conviction in court.

Wasn't aware of that definition of the law. Thanks.

I can see it resulting in a compromise... he'll admit to assault, and the rest will be let drop.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Am I wrong or is there a case to be made that celtic are in a way happy to play up to this " we are the most persecuted club in British football " scenario and in some ways try to encourage that perception of the club.

It is a fact that many people like to identify with this kind of thing.

E.G. I'm a celtic fan, you cant possibly understand what its like having to battle through the persecution of the SFA / SPL and the hatred of the rest of Scottish society. Ergo, we are the best fans in the world.

In a sense Manchester Utd grew into a huge global club, perhaps not totally, but certainly in part due to the Munich airport disaster. Munchausen syndrome by proxy in a sense.

In a different, perhaps more calculated way, celtic are trying to create their own version of that. Or if not create, at least take advantage of.

Idiots sending bullets in the post and daft Yams certainly cant be to celtics liking, but I wouldnt put it past them to at least tacitly make the most of the situation.

I obviously have no concrete proof that this is the situation, but thats how its starting to look to me.

[The Harp Awakes]

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Lennon's behaviour at all times doesn't endeer him to anyone other than the obsessive staunchest Celtic fan. He is consistently agressive and arrogant. Witness his goal celebrations last night. His antics at Ibrox when he cupped his ears sums up his attitude. He's at best immature and probably better described as thick and slightly mad. Whatever he does or how he behaves doesn't merit being attacked, but I for one wasn't surprised. It was a matter of time. There's plenty of equally mad and aggressive people out there who can't control themselves, so it will probably happen again, more likely away from a stadium. Interesting that he was so shocked and stunned that he managed to get a kick at the guy and had to be restrained. I don't condone it, but I honestly can't think of any other manager, past or present, even Souness, that would create enough nonsense to run such a high risk of assault. Can you imagine Turnbull, Stein or Shankly behaving anything like this guy?

Totally disagree. For me, his predecessor, Gordon Strachan was far more irritating and offensive than Neil Lennon. Strangely, Gordon never experienced any of the antics being directed at Lennon. It doesn't take a genious to figure out why NL is the subject of these illegal acts when GS was not.

[Beefster]

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OK, while I'd never condone what has happened to Neil Lennon, and I'm not only referring here to him or Celtic but is it just me that's pretty tired of the PC brigade appearing everytime something goes wrong? On this occasion, Lennon surely has to look at his own behaviour, which, IMHO, hasn't helped matters. Laws against discrimination, be it racial, religious, sexual, abilty etc, were introduced to protect the vulnerable-not to prevent adults taking responsibilty for their own actions. I see it all the time in my work "you can't say that"/take them to task etc because they're Asian, gay etc (you get the jist). Why not? If I have underperformed I am rightly told so it should be a level playing field. Celtic must stop the inflammatory nature of interviews and all of this 'they're out to get us' mentality. Some of this is because of what Neil Lennon/Celtic have said and done NOT because they are a catholic club. This takes away from genuine occasions where innocent people are targeted. It should not give people an excuse to behave in an offensive manner because others are too scared to complain/react in this PC climate.

As has been mentioned, how can they say that it is religious bigotry? Not just assault? What about Lennon/McCoist? Why was that not classed as 'religious'? There has to be a level playing field.

I don't think that anyone is saying that Lennon's behaviour is fine. We're saying that his behaviour doesn't justify the assaults, bullets and parcel bombs. Good to see the infamous 'PC Brigade' get used, once again, to defend the indefensible.

By the way, the logic you use above is the same as that used by the folk who reckon some rape victims 'are asking for it' by wearing provocative clothing.

[hibsbollah]

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By the way, the logic you use above is the same as that used by the folk who reckon some rape victims 'are asking for it' by wearing provocative clothing.

Just what i was thinking yesterday. The 'she had a mini skirt and heels, she mustve been begging for it' defence.

[pacorosssco]

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Totally disagree. For me, his predecessor, Gordon Strachan was far more irritating and offensive than Neil Lennon. Strangely, Gordon never experienced any of the antics being directed at Lennon. It doesn't take a genious to figure out why NL is the subject of these illegal acts when GS was not.

Good point but this sums it up in a nutshell. Celtic fans hated Strachan and were vocal about removing him from his post despite having a better record than Saint Martin. He was hounded out the door by the fans of Celtic who would rather have a less successful Celtic minded manager. I agree Strachan was annoying but he wasnt as bad as Lennon IMO. There was no referee strike under Strachan and his disdain was usually directed at the media.

Lennon has become Celtic manager a short time after finishing a playing career where at worst he was the least liked professional player of his generation in Scottish football.This was not because of where he was from or his religion but because he was a player opposition fans love to hate. Souness was the same and I dont think his religion played any part in being public enemy number 1.

Celtic and Lennon are not blameless in this but it has gone to far. I am fed up of Celtic using this as a religious issue as I wonder how many Celtic fans are in attendance on Sunday mornings compared to Saturday afternoons. I have always hated Rangers as far back as I can remember but for a long time now I hate Celtic. Hearts are our main rivals but I have more time for out petty squables with their fans than the OF.

Facts are if an independent body was to come to Scotland and review this they would find all clubs have small problem elements but two clubs would account for the majority of sectarian activity. Celtic fans can no longer hide behind the best fans in the world with their Nacho Novo songs for example or any number of the ones belted out at Tynecastle the other night no more than Rangers fans can deny they create bother everywhere they go and that there songs arent acceptable. Andy Walkers and Chic Young's can make the point of it being a nationwide problem and they are correct but it is because the Old Firm have fans nationwide and if anything the ones from AYR/FIFE/LOTHIANS ETC are worse than their Glasgow counterparts.

The majority of these fans are also hypocrites of the highest order. People born and bred in Scotland signing songs about other peoples battles and religions they haven't been either born into or practice.

Will anything happen . NO. Hearts will bear the blame for this because it is convenient rather than tackle the big problem which is CELTIC and RANGERS as clubs utter disregard for the rest of scottish football and each other

[FranckSuzy]

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Good point but this sums it up in a nutshell. Celtic fans hated Strachan and were vocal about removing him from his post despite having a better record than Saint Martin. He was hounded out the door by the fans of Celtic who would rather have a less successful Celtic minded manager. I agree Strachan was annoying but he wasnt as bad as Lennon IMO. There was no referee strike under Strachan and his disdain was usually directed at the media.

Lennon has become Celtic manager a short time after finishing a playing career where at worst he was the least liked professional player of his generation in Scottish football.This was not because of where he was from or his religion but because he was a player opposition fans love to hate. Souness was the same and I dont think his religion played any part in being public enemy number 1.

Celtic and Lennon are not blameless in this but it has gone to far. I am fed up of Celtic using this as a religious issue as I wonder how many Celtic fans are in attendance on Sunday mornings compared to Saturday afternoons. I have always hated Rangers as far back as I can remember but for a long time now I hate Celtic. Hearts are our main rivals but I have more time for out petty squables with their fans than the OF.

Facts are if an independent body was to come to Scotland and review this they would find all clubs have small problem elements but two clubs would account for the majority of sectarian activity. Celtic fans can no longer hide behind the best fans in the world with their Nacho Novo songs for example or any number of the ones belted out at Tynecastle the other night no more than Rangers fans can deny they create bother everywhere they go and that there songs arent acceptable. Andy Walkers and Chic Young's can make the point of it being a nationwide problem and they are correct but it is because the Old Firm have fans nationwide and if anything the ones from AYR/FIFE/LOTHIANS ETC are worse than their Glasgow counterparts.

The majority of these fans are also hypocrites of the highest order. People born and bred in Scotland signing songs about other peoples battles and religions they haven't been either born into or practice.

Will anything happen . NO. Hearts will bear the blame for this because it is convenient rather than tackle the big problem which is CELTIC and RANGERS as clubs utter disregard for the rest of scottish football and each other

Great post.

[steakbake]

I'm in the unusual position of agreeing with Beefster here. I find the kind of arguments that Lennon has in some way, brought this on himself or is somehow responsible for it as totally reprehensible.

Neil Lennon himself was not anyone's target until he was picked as captain of the Northern Ireland football team. A "catholic" player who wanted to play for a "protestant" country. Is this the actions of someone who has the politics and religion of N.Ireland at the heart of what he does?

A nasty campaign of hatred then ensued, effectively bullying him out of an international career. Then the Rangers fans started booing him and making him a target of abuse when he was playing for Celtic - and then others started following suit because the cancer of bigotry has spread throughout Scotland.

Then he had the audacity to become manager of Celtic, where I would agree, he has made some controversial comments however, these have only ever been about footballing matters. Arsene Wenger moans every week, as does Tony Pulis - but they are not in the sectarian hotbed of the OF. They don't get death threats...

He doesn't make political or religious statements. But the hate campaign against him has escalated to a point where he is under 24 hour protection, receiving bullets in the post, his family have been threatened, he has been assaulted in the street and now in his place of work. He deserves absolutely none of this. Nobody would deserve it.

Some of the posts about this whole issue on this forum are nothing short of apologies for bigotry. Yes, the songs come from both sides, they're both odious and both cheeks of the same erchie, but this is not the point. These kind of posts are probably not intended as excuses for the bigots, but folk shouldn't let their feelings for what Lennon is like as a football manager or Celtic as a football club cloud their judgement to thinking that any of this campaign of violence and intimidation is in any way acceptable or deserved. Essentially, there's plenty of explanations and excuses being offered, but precious little condemnation.

The SFA and SPL have failed to act. Even when an OF match spilled into violence, the beaks took half measures. Meanwhile, those overseas can see it for what it is: Rangers have been hit with a penalty by UEFA for sectarian singing. Our own domestic associations have sat on their hands, afraid to rock the boat. With our reputation internationally increasingly tarnished, they have failed Scottish football. I'm surprised that I have totally changed my mind in recent weeks because the way that non-OF fans appear to have reacted to the situation as well, I think shows that bigotry is alive and well in different shades across the country. It's not just an OF problem.

[Aldo]

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IIRC, all that the police need to do to be able to charge someone with a "hate crime" is for them to ask the victim whether they believed the attack to be motivated by a hatred of their race, religion, sexuality etc etc.I'm not saying that is definitely what's happened in this case but maybe the police asked Lennon whether or not he thought the guy attacked him because he's a Roman Catholic. If he told them that he thought he had been attacked because of his religion, then I believe that would be enough for them to charge the guy with "religiously aggravated" assault, without actually hearing him say anything at all.

If this is the case, I don't see how this can possibly result in a conviction in court.

Doesnt need to be the victim it can be anyone who thinks/percieves that the incident is of that nature.

Anyway regardless of who it is against Lennon doesnt deserve what he is getting TBH...again this is my opinion. The folk that are sending this stuff through the post are putting numerous persons at risk of serious injury and deserve to be locked up. An example needs to be made of them and there is a very good chance that this will happen.

[Betty Boop]

I can't get my head around the venom and hatred shown towards Neil Lennon. You would think he had committed murder or worse. As an aside, I heard Roughy last night talking about when a Hertz fan tried to attack him at Tynecastle. Anybody remember the incident ?

[CropleyWasGod]

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I can't get my head around the venom and hatred shown towards Neil Lennon. You would think he had committed murder or worse. As an aside, I heard Roughy last night talking about when a Hertz fan tried to attack him at Tynecastle. Anybody remember the incident ?

<amateur psychologist smiley>

It's a tribal thing, I reckon. As a society, we seem to like to have figures of fun, figures of adoration, and figures of hate. We seem to want our public figures to be black or white, with no acknowledgement of the reality that nobody is either.

So, factor in football, where fans tend to leave much of their rational thinking at home, and you can see that Lennon fits nicely into that pocket where venom can be "justifiably" vented. Leave aside the reputation that he has as a decent guy, leave aside his courage to talk publicly about his depression, in those terms he IS a ginger fenian moaning cheating paranoid dirty ****bag.

[hibsbollah]

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<amateur psychologist smiley>

It's a tribal thing, I reckon. As a society, we seem to like to have figures of fun, figures of adoration, and figures of hate. We seem to want our public figures to be black or white, with no acknowledgement of the reality that nobody is either.

So, factor in football, where fans tend to leave much of their rational thinking at home, and you can see that Lennon fits nicely into that pocket where venom can be "justifiably" vented. Leave aside the reputation that he has as a decent guy, leave aside his courage to talk publicly about his depression, in those terms he IS a ginger fenian moaning cheating paranoid dirty ****bag.

You're right, he played the role of pantomime villain on the pitch very well. I remember Boozy lifting the ball over him, sort of teasing him with a bit of exquisite skill at ER 5 years or so ago when he was rushing about trying to intimidate the midfield. We all laughed applauded and booed. It was a brilliant piece of slapstick. For most of us, we 'hated' him on a footballing level, but you need to be ignorant or hate him for reasons other than football to want to wish him harm.

I think it all links back to him being made 'Norn Iron' captain and the No Surrender mob deciding to send the death threats. That was 10+ years ago IIRC-he must be quite a character to have lived through all that hate for so long while dealing with mental illness. I've got sympathy for the man.

[CropleyWasGod]

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You're right, he played the role of pantomime villain on the pitch very well. I remember Boozy lifting the ball over him, sort of teasing him with a bit of exquisite skill at ER 5 years or so ago when he was rushing about trying to intimidate the midfield. We all laughed applauded and booed. It was a brilliant piece of slapstick. For most of us, we 'hated' him on a footballing level, but you need to be ignorant or hate him for reasons other than football to want to wish him harm.

I think it all links back to him being made 'Norn Iron' captain and the No Surrender mob deciding to send the death threats. That was 10+ years ago IIRC-he must be quite a character to have lived through all that hate for so long while dealing with mental illness. I've got sympathy for the man.

.. as do I, as do most rational people. But, the moment you say something like that, immediately there's this assumption that you're "on his side", that you must be black or white (or green or orange), that there can't be somewhere in the middle. It's that polarisation that depresses the hell out of me.

[The Falcon]

Celtic (and Rangers) have managed and manipulated sectarianism over the years to the sustantial financial benefit of each club. They have farmed the prejudices and bigotry of their substantial following and grown stronger on the back of these things. A bit like herion pushers and their addicts in that they need each other.

The "Old Firm" right enough.

But the rest of the people are becoming more socially aware and less tolerant of their extremist elements and the bile they spout. They are no longer managing the situation like they used to, and this is the result. Someone will get badly hurt.

I have sympathy for the man and the situation he's in as this is much bigger than NL.

[Kevvy1875]

Hearing alot of this 'brings it on himself' bandied about......(from lot's of people in general)

What exactly did he do at Tynie the other night to 'bring that on himself'?

I accept that Lennon has and can be a nippy character but can think of many like him who have not had a 100th of the abuse and threats he has had to put up with.

Its the sustained venom over many years that's sickening. Look at the guys eyes when he does TV interviews.....he ain't sleeping well. I have no idea why he doesn't just walk away tbh.

Although I have never cared for him much especially after him feigning injury from Broony touching heads at ER but can have nothing but sympathy for him in this situation. Why should he wear it?...who can blame him for biting back? Wouldn't you snap?

[Smiggy 7-0]

Think this has gone beyond " NORTHERN IRISH - CATHOLIC ".

Don't agree with what happened on wednesday, but think most of us agree Lennon is irritating to say the least, and it's about time he thought about what he is saying before he opens his mouth, and some of his touchline antics.

Martin O'Neil is NORTHERN IRISH CATHOLIC, but nobody thought of him as they do LENNON.

I have no doubt if there was a poll of who was the most disliked person in scottish football LENNON would be tops.

[stoneyburn hibs]

lennon will not be celtic manager come next season, he will have to walk or he will be pushed by the board, damning cctv footage of him in tunnel at ibrox

[BEEJ]

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As an aside, I heard Roughy last night talking about when a Hertz fan tried to attack him at Tynecastle. Anybody remember the incident ?

If this was when he had that bubble perm, that might explain it.

[Betty Boop]

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lennon will not be celtic manager come next season, he will have to walk or he will be pushed by the board, damning cctv footage of him in tunnel at ibrox

Soon to be followed by the Lennon-coke-IRA story.

[Barney McGrew]

According to Lennon today "A lot of people in the game here need to have a good look at themselves in the mirror"