Big Joe Knew

[hibsbollah]

Could be the biggest news story since 9/11.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8587082.stm

Pope accused of failing to act on sex abuse

Victim Arthur Budzinski says Vatican members knew about the scandal


Pope Benedict XVI has been accused of failing to act on complaints from two archbishops in the US about a priest who allegedly abused 200 deaf boys. As a cardinal heading the Vatican office that dealt with sex abuse cases, the future pontiff allegedly failed to respond to letters about the case.
US media reports say a church trial of the priest, Lawrence Murphy, was halted when he pleaded ill health.
The Vatican said US civil authorities had investigated and dropped the case.
The Holy See has recently been plagued by abuse cover-up claims in Europe, echoing a similar scandal that hit the Church in the US eight years ago.
Allegations, many dating back decades, have surfaced in recent months in Ireland, Austria, the Netherlands, Spain and Switzerland, as well as the Pope's native Germany.


For more than 20 years before he was made pontiff, Joseph Ratzinger led the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith - the Vatican office with responsibility, among other issues, for response to child abuse cases.
Documents suggest that in 1996, the then Cardinal Ratzinger twice failed to respond to letters sent to him personally, reported the New York Times, which broke the story.

They concerned the Rev Lawrence Murphy, a popular priest who worked at a Wisconsin school for deaf children from the 1950s.
Two archbishops wrote letters to the Vatican office led by Cardinal Ratzinger calling for disciplinary proceedings against Fr Murphy, but the Vatican halted the process, according to the documents.

Lawsuits have been filed on behalf of five men alleging the Archdiocese of Milwaukee in Wisconsin did not take sufficient action against the priest.
At a news conference on Thursday in Milwaukee, one of the victims, Arthur Budzinski, said Fr Murphy had begun to assault him when he was 12.
Neither the clerical authorities, nor the police had intervened when he reported it, the 61-year-old said.
Mr Budzinski was asked through a sign language interpreter what he wanted to see happen now.
"Ratzinger can have all of the colonels and lieutenants they want fall on the sword for him, but eventually he has to 'fess up," the interpreter said.

Meanwhile, members of a group of clerical abuse victims who denounced Benedict's handling of the case in a news conference outside the Vatican were briefly detained by Italian police for not having a permit.
The priest allegedly assaulted them while hearing their confessions, in his office, his car, at his mother's house and in their dormitory beds.
Fr Murphy was quietly moved to the Diocese of Superior in northern Wisconsin in 1974, where he spent his last 24 years working freely with children in parishes and schools, according to one lawsuit.
Fr Murphy died in 1998, with - in the Church's view - no official blemish on his record.
The Pope's official spokesman, Federico Lombardi, called it a "tragic case", but said there was no provision in Church law for automatic punishment.

Protecting reputation
He also pointed out the Vatican had become involved only in 1996, after US civil authorities had dropped the case.
"During the mid-1970s, some of Fr Murphy's victims reported his abuse to civil authorities," the Rev Lombardi said in a statement.
"The Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith was not informed of the matter until some 20 years later."
The Milwaukee diocese was asked to take action by "restricting Father Murphy's public ministry and requiring that Father Murphy accept full responsibility for the gravity of his acts", the Rev Lombardi added.

Fr Lombardi also said that Fr Murphy's poor health and a lack of more recent allegations had been factors in the decision not to defrock him.
But the Vatican's decision not to carry out its own investigation is the question that brings the now Pope's own involvement centre stage, says BBC religious affairs correspondent Christopher Landau.

Victims of sexual abuse by priests have long argued that the Church has been more interested in protecting its reputation and helping its priests than seeking justice for victims, our correspondent adds.
Last week the Pope issued an unprecedented letter to Ireland addressing the 16 years of clerical cover-up scandals.
He has yet to comment on his handling of a child sex abuse case involving a German priest, which developed while Benedict was overseeing the Munich archdiocese.

The Rev Peter Hullermann had been accused of abusing boys in the 1970s when the now Pope approved his 1980 transfer to Munich to receive psychological treatment for paedophilia.
Hullermann was convicted in 1986 of abusing a youth, but stayed within the Church, serving as a village priest until 2008.

[Hibs Class]

There was a lengthy article on the Hullermann case in the weekend's Sunday Times

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7069826.ece

I see tonight that the Vatican newspaper is describing these latest claims as an ignoble attempt to smear the pope

[hibsdaft]

not a good day for the "celtic-minded" and their leaders eh

[RoslinInstHibby]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle7065824.ece

Check out the name of the reporter

[Phil D. Rolls]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle7065824.ece

Check out the name of the reporter

That's got to be a P*ss take?

[khib70]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

That's got to be a P*ss take?

Incredibly, it's not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Boyes

However I have no doubt that whoever assigned him to that story may well have been on the windup

[Marabou Stork]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle7065824.ece

Check out the name of the reporter

Hahahaha.

That must have been done deliberately.

[Phil D. Rolls]

As one Irish catholic once said:

Stained glass windows keep the cold outside
While the hypocrites hide inside
With the lies of statues in their minds
Where the Christian religion made them blind
Where they hide
And prey to the God of a bitch spelled backwards is dog
Not for one race, one creed, one world
But for money
Effective
Absurd

Do you pray to the Holy Ghost when you suck your host
Do you read whos dead in the Irish Post
Do you give away the cash you cant afford
On bended knees and pray to lord

Fat pig priest
Sanctimonious smiles
He takes the money
You take the lies
This is religion and Jesus Christ
This is religion cheaply priced
This is bibles full of libel
This is sin in eternal hymn
This is what theyve done
This is your religion
The apostles were eleven
Now theres a sod in Heaven

This is religion
Theres a liar on the altar
The sermon never falter
This is religion
Your religion

I see they're closing ranks again. Anyone who continues to subscribe to that organisation is closing ranks with them. Some people saw the light 500 years ago, I wish the faithful could see what they saw, and stop shooting the messengers.

[khib70]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

As one Irish catholic once said:



I see they're closing ranks again. Anyone who continues to subscribe to that organisation is closing ranks with them. Some people saw the light 500 years ago, I wish the faithful could see what they saw, and stop shooting the messengers.

And they tortured, degraded, and ultimately burned them.

[LiverpoolHibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I see they're closing ranks again. Anyone who continues to subscribe to that organisation is closing ranks with them. Some people saw the light 500 years ago, I wish the faithful could see what they saw, and stop shooting the messengers.

If you're being serious, that's phenomenally stupid.

[Phil D. Rolls]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If you're being serious, that's phenomenally stupid.

Wot, no essay?

How else do you interpret keeping up your membership of a club that tolerates such atrocities?

It's an old adage, and it applied in Nazi Germany (b*ll**** bingo #32), that those who stand back and do nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.

[LiverpoolHibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Wot, no essay?

How else do you interpret keeping up your membership of a club that tolerates such atrocities?

It's an old adage, and it applied in Nazi Germany (b*ll**** bingo #32), that those who stand back and do nothing are just as guilty as the perpetrators.

Are you genuinely arguing that anyone who does not immediately repudiate their faith in the wake of this scandal is somehow collectively accountable ('closing ranks', the 'old adage') for the crimes committed within the Church?

[Phil D. Rolls]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Are you genuinely arguing that anyone who does not immediately repudiate their faith in the wake of this scandal is somehow collectively accountable ('closing ranks', the 'old adage') for the crimes committed within the Church?

Pretty much. I'd at least expect people to question their faith, and those who organise it for them.

How are they any less culpable than people who are members of a political party that does things they are unhappy with.

[khib70]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Are you genuinely arguing that anyone who does not immediately repudiate their faith in the wake of this scandal is somehow collectively accountable ('closing ranks', the 'old adage') for the crimes committed within the Church?

Yeah, I think I'm with you on this one.

We all know that elements within the Catholic Church actively collaborated with Nazism, including facilitating the escape from justice of several very nasty individuals. Does that mean that anyone who didn't renounce their faith was also guilty of such collaboration? There were also courageous individuals within the church who resisted fascism and Nazism, most of whom paid with their lives. It's a huge multinational organisation after all.

[Phil D. Rolls]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Yeah, I think I'm with you on this one.

We all know that elements within the Catholic Church actively collaborated with Nazism, including facilitating the escape from justice of several very nasty individuals. Does that mean that anyone who didn't renounce their faith was also guilty of such collaboration? There were also courageous individuals within the church who resisted fascism and Nazism, most of whom paid with their lives. It's a huge multinational organisation after all.

We're not talking about ordinary mortals here, we're talking about the Pope. The main man, the numero uno, the guy with god's phone number.

We're not talking about individuals going against the organisation, we're talking about the organisation being institutionally pro paedophilia.

[khib70]

Firstly, I think it's a bit strong to suggest that the church is "institutionally pro paedophilia".

Having said that, I share your utter disgust at what has been revealed recently. As LH pointed out, child abuse is by no means confined to Catholic clergy, but the Catholic church has used the huge heirarchy which it interposes between believers and "their" God to conceal it. As you correctly say, it goes all the way up to the man still believed by millions to be Christ's earthly representative.

This situation however, doesn't IMO come from an institutional approval of paedophilia, but from a desire to hold on to power and the trappings of power.
They are desperately trying to hold on to their power in an era when better education and the advance of reason is undermining the sway they held over believers by a combination of conjuring tricks and plain old bullying.

So I'm not an apologist for the church in any way. I don't, however, blame the the rank and file believers for the selfish duplicity of the church aristocracy. They have bamboozled many of these believers into a state of guilt and fear for centuries. Now it appears that the foulness lurking under the jewelled robes and behind the incense smoke is being revealed.

[Phil D. Rolls]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Firstly, I think it's a bit strong to suggest that the church is "institutionally pro paedophilia".

Having said that, I share your utter disgust at what has been revealed recently. As LH pointed out, child abuse is by no means confined to Catholic clergy, but the Catholic church has used the huge heirarchy which it interposes between believers and "their" God to conceal it. As you correctly say, it goes all the way up to the man still believed by millions to be Christ's earthly representative.

This situation however, doesn't IMO come from an institutional approval of paedophilia, but from a desire to hold on to power and the trappings of power.
They are desperately trying to hold on to their power in an era when better education and the advance of reason is undermining the sway they held over believers by a combination of conjuring tricks and plain old bullying.

So I'm not an apologist for the church in any way. I don't, however, blame the the rank and file believers for the selfish duplicity of the church aristocracy. They have bamboozled many of these believers into a state of guilt and fear for centuries. Now it appears that the foulness lurking under the jewelled robes and behind the incense smoke is being revealed.

I think you have to say that an organisation that uses its power to cover up paedophilia is giving the paedophiles a helping hand. It sends out the message that their behaviour will be tolerated in the church.

It's always been about power and money, as Lydon's song suggests. I'm afraid that if you "fly with the crows you get shot with the crows". So I am putting the blame at every person who continues to put their money in the collecting tin.

[Jack]

I think this discussion would be best served if folk differentiated between faith and the organisation that ‘administers’ that faith.

IMO its absolutely wrong to condemn those who defend their faith – their belief in a god. There is nothing in their teachings which even remotely suggests such heinous crimes should be tolerated.

IMO there is no defence for those who have played any part in the organisation that all but condoned and controlled paedophilia within its institutions. Anyone trying to defend them is no better then the perpetrators themselves.

It really boils down to the reason I no longer consider myself as belonging to that Church and haven’t for many years. I consider myself to live by Christian values but consider the organisation, of the RCs, to be nothing short of evil. As I’ve said many times before Jesus Christ would be spinning in his grave at the very thought of what is now (in fact since His death almost) going on in His name.

[Phil D. Rolls]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I think this discussion would be best served if folk differentiated between faith and the organisation that ‘administers’ that faith.

IMO its absolutely wrong to condemn those who defend their faith – their belief in a god. There is nothing in their teachings which even remotely suggests such heinous crimes should be tolerated.

IMO there is no defence for those who have played any part in the organisation that all but condoned and controlled paedophilia within its institutions. Anyone trying to defend them is no better then the perpetrators themselves.

It really boils down to the reason I no longer consider myself as belonging to that Church and haven’t for many years. I consider myself to live by Christian values but consider the organisation, of the RCs, to be nothing short of evil. As I’ve said many times before Jesus Christ would be spinning in his grave at the very thought of what is now (in fact since His death almost) going on in His name.

Agreed, I am not criticising Christianity, I'm criticising the Catholic Church and the Vatican State.

[LiverpoolHibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Pretty much. I'd at least expect people to question their faith, and those who organise it for them.

How are they any less culpable than people who are members of a political party that does things they are unhappy with.

Well which is it? Questioning the organisational structure of the church or a repudiation of faith with the caveat that if you don’t you are, to whatever extent, accountable for the abuse?

There’s no logic to the second position whatsoever, you’re just lashing out wildly. The idea that the disgusting actions of temporal members within the Church somehow de-legitimises the entire organisation in bizarre. There’s nothing inherent in the structure of the Church that renders paedophilia or other forms of abuse intrinsic to its operation – if there were that would invalidate its entire being.

On the political party analogy (and it's an only partially accurate comparison); I don't hold individual members of the Labour Party accountable for the Iraq War - because it would be nonsensical to do so.

N.B. To claim that the Catholic Church has been 'institutionally pro-paedophilia' is just ludicrous.

[khib70]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Well which is it? Questioning the organisational structure of the church or a repudiation of faith with the caveat that if you don’t you are, to whatever extent, accountable for the abuse?

There’s no logic to the second position whatsoever, you’re just lashing out wildly. The idea that the disgusting actions of temporal members within the Church somehow de-legitimises the entire organisation in bizarre. There’s nothing inherent in the structure of the Church that renders paedophilia or other forms of abuse intrinsic to its operation – if there were that would invalidate its entire being.

On the political party analogy (and it's an only partially accurate comparison); I don't hold individual members of the Labour Party accountable for the Iraq War - because it would be nonsensical to do so.

N.B. To claim that the Catholic Church has been 'institutionally pro-paedophilia' is just ludicrous.

You're absolutely right here. What is inherent in the structures of the church is an elaborate unelected heirarchy which will always act to protect what they have, regardless of the moral considerations. That's a long way from an institutional predeliction for paedophilia.

While I agree with what you say about the accountability of political party members, it's not an exact analogy. At least members of the Labour party had the opportunity to vote for or against the Iraq war. (Whether the leadership would have taken a blind bit of notice is another issue).
Lay members of the Roman Catholic Church have absolutely no say in the actions and policies of the heirarchy, so are even less responsible for the actions of those in power than members of democratic political parties, and certainly should bear no guilt for these actions.

[Phil D. Rolls]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Well which is it? Questioning the organisational structure of the church or a repudiation of faith with the caveat that if you don’t you are, to whatever extent, accountable for the abuse?


There’s no logic to the second position whatsoever, you’re just lashing out wildly. The idea that the disgusting actions of temporal members within the Church somehow de-legitimises the entire organisation in bizarre. There’s nothing inherent in the structure of the Church that renders paedophilia or other forms of abuse intrinsic to its operation – if there were that would invalidate its entire being.

On the political party analogy (and it's an only partially accurate comparison); I don't hold individual members of the Labour Party accountable for the Iraq War - because it would be nonsensical to do so.

N.B. To claim that the Catholic Church has been 'institutionally pro-paedophilia' is just ludicrous.

Well I don't think it is, because rather than punish the paedophiles, they have closed ranks time and time again. They have made themelves into a safe haven for perverts.

The temporal members (what that?) are supported by their leaders, and so the whole structure does seem rotten, to me.

The rank and file members of the church, continue to turn the same blind eye, and do not question their leaders.

The church has been behind some horrendous abuses of power. Yet whenever they are questioned they play the persecution card. It's really quite ironic.

[hibsbollah]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Well I don't think it is, because rather than punish the paedophiles, they have closed ranks time and time again. They have made themelves into a safe haven for perverts.

The temporal members (what that?) are supported by their leaders, and so the whole structure does seem rotten, to me.

The rank and file members of the church, continue to turn the same blind eye, and do not question their leaders.

The church has been behind some horrendous abuses of power. Yet whenever they are questioned they play the persecution card. It's really quite ironic.

Something that hasnt been mentioned is the system of Canon Law under which Big Joe 'dealt with' these paedophiles when he was a cardinal. I heard a bit about it on the radio and ive looked into it briefly on the internet. Its nothing short of astonishing that Canon Law is used instead of the laws of the nation state in the 21st century. Basically The Pope acts as the head of the legislature

No doubt The Catholic Church would defend it on the basis that its a legal system thats functioned for 2000 years, but does that make it right?

[Phil D. Rolls]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Something that hasnt been mentioned is the system of Canon Law under which Big Joe 'dealt with' these paedophiles when he was a cardinal. I heard a bit about it on the radio and ive looked into it briefly on the internet. Its nothing short of astonishing that Canon Law is used instead of the laws of the nation state in the 21st century. Basically The Pope acts as the head of the legislature

No doubt The Catholic Church would defend it on the basis that its a legal system thats functioned for 2000 years, but does that make it right?

It doesn't seem right to me. It's kind of like Disney saying that it will discipline its employees in line with United States law, instead of the country it is operating in, for example.

Does Canon law operate in the UK?

[hibsbollah]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Does Canon law operate in the UK?

It looks like it, although its hard to find out from wiki etc whether it can supercede English or Scots Law.

[Phil D. Rolls]

What's puzzling me is that any thread about child abuse usually attracts a baying mob with fiery crosses, yet this thread is very quiet indeed. Veird.

[Bishop Hibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

What's puzzling me is that any thread about child abuse usually attracts a baying mob with fiery crosses, yet this thread is very quiet indeed. Veird.

Why bother arguing with you. You're obviously right

Here's an article by Eileen Fairweather, a campaigning journalist who has exposed child abuse in the UK and yet is a practicing Roman Catholic. Do you think she turns a blind eye to child abuse in the Catholic church?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ournalist.html

[Phil D. Rolls]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Why bother arguing with you. You're obviously right

Here's an article by Eileen Fairweather, a campaigning journalist who has exposed child abuse in the UK and yet is a practicing Roman Catholic. Do you think she turns a blind eye to child abuse in the Catholic church?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ournalist.html

There's no need to argue with me, just show me evidence that the church hasn't been a safe haven for paedophiles. I have no axe to grind other than that I hate hypocrisy.

This lady clearly doesn't turn a blind eye, but she's not a Bishop or a Pope. The top brass of the organisation have allowed this to continue for years. In much the same way as the Met allowed racism to flourish.

[Bishop Hibee]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The rank and file members of the church, continue to turn the same blind eye, and do not question their leaders.

The church has been behind some horrendous abuses of power. Yet whenever they are questioned they play the persecution card. It's really quite ironic.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

This lady clearly doesn't turn a blind eye, but she's not a Bishop or a Pope. The top brass of the organisation have allowed this to continue for years. In much the same way as the Met allowed racism to flourish.

How can "rank and file" members of the church turn a blind eye and "This lady clearly doesn't turn a blind eye" be compatible views?

Your average Scottish RC who goes to Mass on a Sunday is well aware of the faults and failings of the hierarchy. There have been scandals in the Vatican for hundreds of years. Look up Pope John XII and you'll see the current Pope is a paragon of virtue in comparison!

In my experience, people in 21st Century Scotland go to Mass as they believe in God, believe Jesus is present in the sacraments of the Roman Catholic church and as a physical expression of their belief go to church.

[Phil D. Rolls]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

How can "rank and file" members of the church turn a blind eye and "This lady clearly doesn't turn a blind eye" be compatible views?

Your average Scottish RC who goes to Mass on a Sunday is well aware of the faults and failings of the hierarchy. There have been scandals in the Vatican for hundreds of years. Look up Pope John XII and you'll see the current Pope is a paragon of virtue in comparison!

In my experience, people in 21st Century Scotland go to Mass as they believe in God, believe Jesus is present in the sacraments of the Roman Catholic church and as a physical expression of their belief go to church.

This is one woman, last time I looked there was a whole lot of RCs getting excited at the Pope's imminent visit.

Your second paragraph seems to illustrate my point. Despite knowledge of horrendous acts being carried out they seem unable to bring themselves to question and criticise the leaders of the church.

I'm no theologian, but are there not close alternatives to the Church of Rome when it comes to worshipping Jesus? It seems to me that Catholicism seems to operate on a menu system, and people buy into the bits they want. Surely they could find the right mix elsewhere, without propping up a corrupt and twisted regime?