"Protests", "Counter-protests" and "Marches"

**Pete** · 20-02-2010 09:43 PM

It was a free-for all in Edinburgh today. The IDF or whoever they are were allowed to march in Edinburgh so the left-wing counter demonstrators did what they do and marched in protest at their presence.

The feeling I got was that nobody else seemed to care about the issues they were going on about and just looked upon the whole thing as a nuisance and unnecessary disruption.

I looked at the Right wing side and saw bampots. One fellow cabbie had some guys in the back and they were all about "taking Britain back" from the "muslims". I wonder if these guys would have got into a cab driven by one of the Asian boys?

I looked at the left hand side and saw lots of students and middle class pensioners telling us that Nazis and the BNP weren't welcome in Edinburgh. I didn't realise that the Nazis or the BNP were holding demonstrations!!...It's just the same people with the same banners with the same message.
There's also a part of me that doesn't like to be told who is welcome in Edinburgh by a small mob. Is that not for everyone to decide...not just the selected few? Of course 99% would make the same choice but who are you to tell us?

I was being slightly facetious and I also believe the left wing lot are right to follow and counter-demonstrate but is this whole method of protesting not simply outdated? TBH we see so many groups of people with messages and purposes but I think to the general public they are all starting to blend into one. There was also a picket line somewhere today but I cant remember where or why...I didn't even know if they had anything to do with either side of the other rallies!
People say that taking to the streets is the ultimate method of protest but I'm beginning to doubt that. I can get all the information I want about a subject or guage the level of public feeling towards it through other methods...such as online information, protests and petitions...and the majority of the population aren't potentially inconvenienced by these methods.

There's just something old fashioned and something intrusive about these marches...and no matter what side of the fence you are on there are surely better, more efficient ways to put your message accross.

**~~Phil D. Rolls~~** · 21-02-2010 07:32 AM

I've always been put off demos because of the "rent a mob" types who show up at them. Whatever the left wing cause, you could be sure you would come across the same rainbow alliance of vegetarians, feminists, and environmentalists.

I remember at one of the stop the war demos, around 2002/3 hearing an impassioned speech by Tomy Sheridan greeted by "whoops" and "whooas", and drummers blowing whistles. It seemed to me they didn't have a scooby what they were demonstrating against, but were just there to be seen.

Let's face it, if you're up for a fight you don't shout "whooooooo", you shout "c'moan then". But then, I suppose the actual fighting for the cause is the proletariat's job.

George Orwell wrote about pretty much the same thing in The Road to Wigan pier. These people are there for themselves - if they want to engage more people in politics, then they should think about how they present themselves.

As for the right - these are twisted little men from the likes of Fathell, Lanarkshire; Fathell, Ayrshire and Fathell, Fife. Most of them have never seen a mosque and have no idea what they are demonstrating against either. They have their own personal agenda (have you ever noticed that they tend to be short men) and like the hippy dippy lefties, have found a group of like minded souls to bring attention to their cause.

**Expecting Rain** · 21-02-2010 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

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I've always been put off demos because of the "rent a mob" types who show up at them. Whatever the left wing cause, you could be sure you would come across the same rainbow alliance of vegetarians, feminists, and environmentalists.

I remember at one of the stop the war demos, around 2002/3 hearing an impassioned speech by Tomy Sheridan greeted by "whoops" and "whooas", and drummers blowing whistles. It seemed to me they didn't have a scooby what they were demonstrating against, but were just there to be seen.

Let's face it, if you're up for a fight you don't shout "whooooooo", you shout "c'moan then". But then, I suppose the actual fighting for the cause is the proletariat's job.

George Orwell wrote about pretty much the same thing in The Road to Wigan pier. These people are there for themselves - if they want to engage more people in politics, then they should think about how they present themselves.

As for the right - these are twisted little men from the likes of Fathell, Lanarkshire; Fathell, Ayrshire and Fathell, Fife. Most of them have never seen a mosque and have no idea what they are demonstrating against either. They have their own personal agenda (have you ever noticed that they tend to be short men) and like the hippy dippy lefties, have found a group of like minded souls to bring attention to their cause.

Don`t follow leaders watch the parking meters.

**Betty Boop** · 21-02-2010 09:40 AM

The right to protest and non violent direct action, are vital in a democratic society. What about Women's right to vote. the rights of gay and lesbian people, the trade union movement, the abolition of slavery, the civil rights movement in Northern Ireland ? These freedoms and rights were achieved because people went out on the streets to protest.

***CropleyWasGod*** · 21-02-2010 09:49 AM

Isn't it the point that people are inconvenienced, though? To get people, who might not otherwise have thought about the issues, to actually become aware of them and come to some sort of conclusion. The same process as happens with strikes.

***J-C*** · 21-02-2010 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by Betty Boop

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The right to protest and non violent direct action, are vital in a democratic society. What about Women's right to vote. the rights of gay and lesbian people, the trade union movement, the abolition of slavery, the civil rights movement in Northern Ireland ? These freedoms and rights were achieved because people went out on the streets to protest.

Betty, I don't think the argument here is against the right to protest, more of the type of people that these protests are attracting, i.e extreme right/left wing.

**LiverpoolHibs** · 21-02-2010 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by peterdouglas

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It was a free-for all in Edinburgh today. The IDF or whoever they are were allowed to march in Edinburgh so the left-wing counter demonstrators did what they do and marched in protest at their presence.

The feeling I got was that nobody else seemed to care about the issues they were going on about and just looked upon the whole thing as a nuisance and unnecessary disruption.

I looked at the Right wing side and saw bampots. One fellow cabbie had some guys in the back and they were all about "taking Britain back" from the "muslims". I wonder if these guys would have got into a cab driven by one of the Asian boys?

I looked at the left hand side and saw lots of students and middle class pensioners telling us that Nazis and the BNP weren't welcome in Edinburgh. I didn't realise that the Nazis or the BNP were holding demonstrations!!...It's just the same people with the same banners with the same message.

There's also a part of me that doesn't like to be told who is welcome in Edinburgh by a small mob. Is that not for everyone to decide...not just the selected few? Of course 99% would make the same choice but who are you to tell us?

I was being slightly facetious and I also believe the left wing lot are right to follow and counter-demonstrate but is this whole method of protesting not simply outdated? TBH we see so many groups of people with messages and purposes but I think to the general public they are all starting to blend into one. There was also a picket line somewhere today but I cant remember where or why...I didn't even know if they had anything to do with either side of the other rallies!

People say that taking to the streets is the ultimate method of protest but I'm beginning to doubt that. I can get all the information I want about a subject or guage the level of public feeling towards it through other methods...such as online information, protests and petitions...and the majority of the population aren't potentially inconvenienced by these methods.

There's just something old fashioned and something intrusive about these marches...and no matter what side of the fence you are on there are surely better, more efficient ways to put your message accross.

As has been said, they're meant to be intrusive - that's sort of the point.

On the emboldened part, the EDL are funded and organised by the B.N.P., the N.F. and other assorted far-right groups. They provide the structure around which the 'footsoldiers' gravitate.

Due to mass counter-protests throughout the Seventies, Eighties and Nineties it eventually became clear to the far-right that they could no longer attempt to control the streets in the way they wished to. 'Political Soldierism' was dead and buried as a result of this and it brought about the B.N.P.'s attempt to shift into the mainstream. This shift requires (absolutely essentially) a policy of dissimulation taken wholesale from the experiences of Le Pen and the Front Nationale in France. This meant a distancing from explicitly Nazi rhetoric and policy and forgoing the street-fighting aspect of fascism; but they've seen the opportunity to have both at the same time - a group that they control and organise while at the same time it appears, on the face of it, to have little or no connection to them so that people see the EDL as a spontaneous upsurge of justly concerened citizens. It's bollocks.

It's absolutely essential that they aren't allowed to gain a foothold on the streets and so far that's been denied to them by the actions of UAF (by no means composed solely of 'students and middle class pensioners') and other groups, especially in Edinburgh and Glasgow. That should be a source of great pride not moaning about 'inconvenience and nuisance'.

Originally Posted by Filled Rolls

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I've always been put off demos because of the "rent a mob" types who show up at them. Whatever the left wing cause, you could be sure you would come across the same rainbow alliance of vegetarians, feminists, and environmentalists.

I remember at one of the stop the war demos, around 2002/3 hearing an impassioned speech by Tomy Sheridan greeted by "whoops" and "whooas", and drummers blowing whistles. It seemed to me they didn't have a scooby what they were demonstrating against, but were just there to be seen.

Let's face it, if you're up for a fight you don't shout "whooooooo", you shout "c'moan then". But then, I suppose the actual fighting for the cause is the proletariat's job.

George Orwell wrote about pretty much the same thing in The Road to Wigan pier. These people are there for themselves - if they want to engage more people in politics, then they should think about how they present themselves.

As for the right - these are twisted little men from the likes of Fathell, Lanarkshire; Fathell, Ayrshire and Fathell, Fife. Most of them have never seen a mosque and have no idea what they are demonstrating against either. They have their own personal agenda (have you ever noticed that they tend to be short men) and like the hippy dippy lefties, have found a group of like minded souls to bring attention to their cause.

I have absolutely no idea why this sort of thing is trotted out as often as it is. Large congregations of people, of any kind, are always liable to contain a few dickheads. That shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone.

Originally Posted by JC50

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Betty, I don't think the argument here is against the right to protest, more of the type of people that these protests are attracting, i.e extreme right/left wing.

They're not interchangeable...

***J-C*** · 22-02-2010 09:32 AM

[QUOTE=LiverpoolHibs;2362702]As has been said, they're meant to be intrusive - that's sort of the point.

On the emboldened part, the EDL are funded and organised by the B.N.P., the N.F. and other assorted far-right groups. They provide the structure around which the 'footsoldiers' gravitate.

Due to mass counter-protests throughout the Seventies, Eighties and Nineties it eventually became clear to the far-right that they could no longer attempt to control the streets in the way they wished to. 'Political Soldierism' was dead and buried as a result of this and it brought about the B.N.P.'s attempt to shift into the mainstream. This shift requires (absolutely essentially) a policy of dissimulation taken wholesale from the experiences of Le Pen and the Front Nationale in France. This meant a distancing from explicitly Nazi rhetoric and policy and forgoing the street-fighting aspect of fascism; but they've seen the opportunity to have both at the same time - a group that they control and organise while at the same time it appears, on the face of it, to have little or no connection to them so that people see the EDL as a spontaneous upsurge of justly concerened citizens. It's bollocks.

It's absolutely essential that they aren't allowed to gain a foothold on the streets and so far that's been denied to them by the actions of UAF (by no means composed solely of 'students and middle class pensioners') and other groups, especially in Edinburgh and Glasgow. That should be a source of great pride not moaning about 'inconvenience and nuisance'.

I have absolutely no idea why this sort of thing is trotted out as often as it is. Large congregations of people, of any kind, are always liable to contain a few dickheads. That shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone.

They're not interchangeable...[/QUOTE]

Did I say they were, I stated right/left wing, which to most would mean either of them, right and or left wing if you will. Didn't realise you were going to be so pedantic.

**LiverpoolHibs** · 22-02-2010 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by JC50

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Did I say they were, I stated right/left wing, which to most would mean either of them, right and or left wing if you will. Didn't realise you were going to be so pedantic.

I wasn't being pedantic in any way, I was objecting to the suggestion that the left-wing component of the counter demonstration were/are as much of a concern as the assorted fascists and racists they were demonstrating against.

**Tinyclothes** · 22-02-2010 01:56 PM

Marches also raise awareness for people living in cities outwith the march. BBC news websites and the like have documented the marches which spreads the message to a wide audience, making it well worthwhile. The counter marches against the SDL / EDL are vital to show people that we will not allow the facisits sole media coverage, spreading their nonsense to a mass audience.

***speedy_gonzales*** · 22-02-2010 03:04 PM

I accidentally got caught up in the anti nazi/fascist march as it crossed over the high street. Rather than try to fight through it I stood to one side and watched them pass. I don't know if something had happened earlier to antagonise them but a small percentage of the 'liberals' were spitting feathers, nothing as bad as the anti-capitailst groups we saw a few years back but not far off! Along with the expected 'union' banners there was the swastikas with red circle/line over them and a number of people with their faces covered up with bandanas or 'snood' type clothing.
Although these were in the minority, even I as a paid up member of a socialist union find there presence un-nerving.
I was just coming round to the point of noticing that a large part of this march didn't appear to be your 'typical' Edinburgher when a young naive lad found out to his cost. A small group were making themselves heard very clearly when this young lad, under 20, shouted 'what country do you come from?', to be fair, although there wasn't as many non-whites there as I'd expected, there were a lot of continental europeans and english. The abuse and bile this young lad got back was ridiculous and if this was the liberal marchers I'd hate to have come across the right wing/white supremicists/BNP types that were congregating elsewhere!

**tony higgins** · 22-02-2010 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales

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I accidentally got caught up in the anti nazi/fascist march as it crossed over the high street. Rather than try to fight through it I stood to one side and watched them pass. I don't know if something had happened earlier to antagonise them but a small percentage of the 'liberals' were spitting feathers, nothing as bad as the anti-capitailst groups we saw a few years back but not far off! Along with the expected 'union' banners there was the swastikas with red circle/line over them and a number of people with their faces covered up with bandanas or 'snood' type clothing.
Although these were in the minority, even I as a paid up member of a socialist union find there presence un-nerving.
I was just coming round to the point of noticing that a large part of this march didn't appear to be your 'typical' Edinburgher when a young naive lad found out to his cost. A small group were making themselves heard very clearly when this young lad, under 20, shouted 'what country do you come from?', to be fair, although there wasn't as many non-whites there as I'd expected, there were a lot of continental europeans and english. The abuse and bile this young lad got back was ridiculous and if this was the liberal marchers I'd hate to have come across the right wing/white supremicists/BNP types that were congregating elsewhere!

Can imagine you at big matches in the 1970s if a few students frightened you passing a protest against nazis.

***speedy_gonzales*** · 22-02-2010 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by tony higgins

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Can imagine you at big matches in the 1970s if a few students frightened you passing a protest against nazis.

Heh heh, fair enough, these weren't students though. More than the vast majority were cool, seen them a hundred times before and was amongst them during the 'Make Poverty History' march that circled the old town. Nah, these guys were like renta thugs. Don't care what the cause is but turn up hoping things turn nasty. As it was, I do believe it all passed off peacefully so no worries there.
Still, I'm still not quite happy at the sight of a group of men wearing balaclavas in the sunshine, something not quite right there!

***J-C*** · 22-02-2010 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

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I wasn't being pedantic in any way, I was objecting to the suggestion that the left-wing component of the counter demonstration were/are as much of a concern as the assorted fascists and racists they were demonstrating against.

So you think the extreme left wing faction that causes all the riots at the G20 conferences are not a concern, well there I have to disagree.

**hibsdaft** · 22-02-2010 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by JC50

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So you think the extreme left wing faction that causes all the riots at the G20 conferences are not a concern, well there I have to disagree.

more an embarressment than a concern.

unless you think smashed a few windows of an empty RBS branch is a big deal (for all its daftness, its not going to keep me awake at night)

mind it was others (MET police) who actually killed/ manslaughtered a random citizen who just happened to walking past the scene at the g20 protest thing

**Dashing Bob S** · 22-02-2010 08:19 PM

How inconvenient this democracy lark can be! Let's have a proper fascist dictatorship.

**LiverpoolHibs** · 22-02-2010 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by JC50

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So you think the extreme left wing faction that causes all the riots at the G20 conferences are not a concern, well there I have to disagree.

The police aren't remotely left-wing, never mind extreme...

***J-C*** · 22-02-2010 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by hibsdaft

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more an embarressment than a concern.

unless you think smashed a few windows of an empty RBS branch is a big deal (for all its daftness, its not going to keep me awake at night)

mind it was others (MET police) who actually killed/ manslaughtered a random citizen who just happened to walking past the scene at the g20 protest thing

Maybe not the last demo, as the police didn't come out of that too well, there have been quite a few others though where the so called left wing demontrators have caused a lot of bother, not saying the extreme right wing are any better mind you.

Must admit, I'm glad I dodn't have any of these extreme views on life and feel that these demo's whoever they are for can cause more bother than what they're worth to the people of whatever city they're held in.

---------- Post added at 09:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 PM ----------

Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

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The police aren't remotely left-wing, never mind extreme...

Yes the police take a lot of blame, specially at the last demo but these demo's have been going for a while and not just in our country, the riots happen in most countries they're held in.

**LiverpoolHibs** · 22-02-2010 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by JC50

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Yes the police take a lot of blame, specially at the last demo but these demo's have been going for a while and not just in our country, the riots happen in most countries they're held in.

I'd be interested in any figures you have for the percentage of (broadly defined) left-wing protest marches that end in rioting.

***J-C*** · 23-02-2010 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

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I'd be interested in any figures you have for the percentage of (broadly defined) left-wing protest marches that end in rioting.

No figures, just news.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...rotesters-riot

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=12a_1195438353&o=1

http://money.cnn.com/1999/06/18/worldbiz/protest/

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ant...GGIE_en&tab=nw

**SouthsideHarp_Bhoy** · 02-03-2010 08:55 PM

I cant help but wonder if the 'counter-demos' just give the right wingers added publicity and importance?

I mean this mob really are irrelevant, marginal in the extreme and the only people who are likely swallow their nonsense wont be put off by the anti-facists (and it might even make them more attractive?)

Also, those anti-facists that demonstrated outside BBC when Griffin was on were a ridiculous parody of themselves, and were at least as facist as the guy they were demonstrating against.

Burn Nick Griffin - they didnt see the irony?

**LiverpoolHibs** · 06-03-2010 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy

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I cant help but wonder if the 'counter-demos' just give the right wingers added publicity and importance?

I mean this mob really are irrelevant, marginal in the extreme and the only people who are likely swallow their nonsense wont be put off by the anti-facists (and it might even make them more attractive?)

Also, those anti-facists that demonstrated outside BBC when Griffin was on were a ridiculous parody of themselves, and were at least as facist as the guy they were demonstrating against.

Burn Nick Griffin - they didnt see the irony?

Oh for ****s sake.

Video here of the EDL demo in London and the pretty unsuccessful UAF counter demo. Note the near constant attempts at dissimulation and self-censorship from within the group - not swearing, 'correcting' people when they're being explicitly racist, getting them to mention certain things in interviews etc. Further indication of them being organised from alot higher up than they like to appear.

Yet the biggest cheer still comes for,

"God bless the Christians, God bless the Sikhs and the Hindus. Even God bless the Muslims - they'll need it when they're burning in ****ing hell!"

***J-C*** · 06-03-2010 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

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Oh for ****s sake.

Video here of the EDL demo in London and the pretty unsuccessful UAF counter demo. Note the near constant attempts at dissimulation and self-censorship from within the group - not swearing, 'correcting' people when they're being explicitly racist, getting them to mention certain things in interviews etc. Further indication of them being organised from alot higher up than they like to appear.

Yet the biggest cheer still comes for,

"God bless the Christians, God bless the Sikhs and the Hindus. Even God bless the Muslims - they'll need it when they're burning in ****ing hell!"

I noticed you haven't replied to my post above showing left wing riots over the past few years, wonder why??

**LiverpoolHibs** · 06-03-2010 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by JC50

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I noticed you haven't replied to my post above showing left wing riots over the past few years, wonder why??

Because it was fatuous, simplistic and uninteresting?

***J-C*** · 06-03-2010 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

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Because it was fatuous, simplistic and uninteresting?

You're the one who tried to argue that left wing demonstrators don't cause riots etc and when I give you evidence you ignore it, forget the so called big words you use, ignorance is one I like to use.

Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

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I wasn't being pedantic in any way, I was objecting to the suggestion that the left-wing component of the counter demonstration were/are as much of a concern as the assorted fascists and racists they were demonstrating against.

Here you argue suggesting left wing demo's wern't as much of a concern, I give examples showing they are and you choose to ignore the fact, well argued not.

I won't use fancy words to try and call you names like those above, your actions and posts do that for me.

**LiverpoolHibs** · 07-03-2010 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by JC50

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You're the one who tried to argue that left wing demonstrators don't cause riots etc and when I give you evidence you ignore it, forget the so called big words you use, ignorance is one I like to use.

No I didn't - at no point did I claim that left-wing demonstrations never resulted in rioting. I asked you what percentage did and you just replied with some examples.

Originally Posted by JC50

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Here you argue suggesting left wing demo's wern't as much of a concern, I give examples showing they are and you choose to ignore the fact, well argued not.

I won't use fancy words to try and call you names like those above, your actions and posts do that for me.

I don't think they're as much of a concern, I don't think they're any concern at all, I think they're to be welcomed. Why do you think they're a 'concern'?

I haven't used any fancy words and I haven't called you names. You asked why I didn't reply to your post and I explained.

***J-C*** · 07-03-2010 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

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No I didn't - at no point did I claim that left-wing demonstrations never resulted in rioting. I asked you what percentage did and you just replied with some examples.

I don't think they're as much of a concern, I don't think they're any concern at all, I think they're to be welcomed. Why do you think they're a 'concern'?

I haven't used any fancy words and I haven't called you names. You asked why I didn't reply to your post and I explained.

1. Obviously I can't give percentages, so I gave you evidence instead.

2. So you're obviously happy that left wing factions are doing as much rioting as right wing/fascists, I on the other hand am concerned.

3.Fatuous - Inane and foolish........Simplistic - simplicity that distorts the topicimplistic....Uninteresting - Little or no interest/boring.

Actually this last bit sums up what these posts are becoming.

**LiverpoolHibs** · 07-03-2010 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by JC50

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1. Obviously I can't give percentages, so I gave you evidence instead.

Evidence for what?

Originally Posted by JC50

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2. So you're obviously happy that left wing factions are doing as much rioting as right wing/fascists, I on the other hand am concerned.

Yet again, you have no idea whether that's true or not.

Originally Posted by JC50

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3.Fatuous - Inane and foolish........Simplistic - simplicity that distorts the topicimplistic....Uninteresting - Little or no interest/boring.

Yes, but that's not name calling.

Originally Posted by JC50

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Actually this last bit sums up what these posts are becoming.

Absolutely, that's why I said it...

**Killiehibbie** · 07-03-2010 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by LiverpoolHibs

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No I didn't - at no point did I claim that left-wing demonstrations never resulted in rioting. I asked you what percentage did and you just replied with some examples.

I don't think they're as much of a concern, I don't think they're any concern at all, I think they're to be welcomed. Why do you think they're a 'concern'?

I haven't used any fancy words and I haven't called you names. You asked why I didn't reply to your post and I explained.

You don't think extremists rioting at marches are a concern? I think we should all be concerned regardless of what wing they're coming in from. None of them have got our best interests at heart, unless we're lined up for a job with them.

**LiverpoolHibs** · 07-03-2010 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Killiehibbie

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You don't think extremists rioting at marches are a concern? I think we should all be concerned regardless of what wing they're coming in from. None of them have got our best interests at heart, unless we're lined up for a job with them.

Where did I say that?

And what do you mean by 'extremists'?