Christmas Light Switch on in Dundee

[Sir David Gray]

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Where do you get your information? Are you implying that countrywide, councils are trying to keep christmas a secret, via a manifestation of a crazed atheist agenda, by draping every town in the UK with a garish light display?

I didn't say anything about it being "countrywide", but I do stand by my statement that there are councils in Britain who refuse to be too open in their celebration of Christmas, because they do not want to offend minority groups. It was only a few days ago that I noticed a lit sign that has been put up in my home town centre, saying "Season's Greetings". No mention whatsoever of Christmas.

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I'll give you christians one thing, you guys are not hypocritical when it comes to your overt homophobia.

Although many people will probably see me as homophobic, what exactly did I say there that could be construed as homophobic? I was stating something that actually happened. A publicly funded initiative was set up in Glasgow, inviting homosexual, bisexual and transsexual people to deface a copy of the Bible by writing messages inside it which, in my view, were vulgar.

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Right I see, so lunatic right wing christians like you, Donald Rumsfeld and George W Bush are TOLERANT not vindictive, little close minded bigots. I'm glad we got to the bottom of that because here was me labouring under the misapprehension that you were the latter, when actually, you are the former.

Any chance that you could maybe address the points of my post that you have quoted, instead of making this kind of rant because I have no idea what you are on about here. Unless, God forbid, you actually agree with me that there is absolutely no chance that the Qur'an would have been abused in such a manner.

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And we'd hate to see those 'coloureds' getting a foothold in our society now wouldn't we?
Just out of interest, even if there was as much hoo haa about ramadan as there was about christmas, why would that bother you so much, doesn't islam have as much right to worship as any other faith, or would you also like to see the dismantling of those loony liberal mandates called 'Human Rights'? Or maybe just for Muslims?

For a start, I have never used a term, like the one in bold, in my life.

And yes, Muslims have as much right to worship their faith and celebrate their festivals as anyone else. This is not about Muslims rights being decreased, it's about Christian festivals being embraced openly and publicly, which I do not believe is the case at the moment.

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Utter nonsense, both in your interpretation of the newspaper article and your wild belief that islam is embraced.

I agree that amongst the general British public, Islam is far from embraced. However I do believe that Islam is viewed in a favourable light by the people in charge.

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Have you any idea how moronically stupid that sentence is? Could you show me where you get your evidence (not anecdotes) that this army of cooncilmen atheists are plotting to avoid offending religions other than Christianity?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...re/4504562.stm
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/442024-c...-too-religious

Will those two examples do for now?

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Link.
Presumably the wrong type of christian in your eyes?

This Metropolitan Community Church openly embraces homosexuality, in fact most of their members are from the LGBT community. It's therefore hardly surprising that they were behind such an initiative.

However I would tend to call into question a group that call themselves Christians and yet apparently find it perfectly acceptable for their Holy book to be defaced, regardless of the nature of the messages.

I don't believe that any real Christian would think it's OK to vandalise the Bible.

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Erm, no, it wasnt. You are mixing up so many moral outrages here it beggars belief.

Tolerance of, and embracing, homosexuality is part of living in a diverse society. Therefore, I would say that this kind of stunt was done in the name of diversity.

What would you call it?

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Here's a scenario for you. Someone is offered a job - lets say a surgeon. He is from Bangladesh. His English is excellent. He needs English and has learned it from a very early age. He brings with him his wife and kids. The wife, having not needed to so far, does not have a good command of English at all. His kids have learned some at school. They speak Bengali at home.

Will you stop the surgeon from starting his job until all his family can speak English? Are the kids to be excluded from education until they can speak English? Is his wife not to join him in the UK until she can prove she speaks and understands English to a required level?

It's a very real example. There are very few people living in Edinburgh who cannot speak some level of English. Their reading skills might not be the same - try learning a language to speak and then learn to write or read it. Then try learning it if the alphabet or writing system is totally different.

So these leaflets - perhaps there are people who can communicate in English, or get by in it. But if they need particular information, is it best to present this in a format they will immediately understand, or do you insist that they must speak, read and write perfect English?

Presumably you're willing to wait for any council tax to be paid until they can understand the english version leaflet explaining how it works?

In this hypothetical example, provided that they meet all the criteria, the whole family should be allowed into the UK and the wife should be made to attend regular English lessons. Obviously the family is coming to the UK primarily because of the husband's skills as a surgeon. Therefore, the fact that he can speak English should take precedence over the fact that his wife cannot.

Where there's just one person coming over, that person should be able to speak English to be eligible for entry into this country.

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I agree with you apart from the bit in bold. Think its up to the individual to learn not the country to teach them.

Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly enough. I was meaning more that it's up to those countries to bring in a law that says all immigrants must learn how to speak the language of that country, if they can't already do so.

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And then you could get all up-in-arms about having to pay for English lessons.

I would rather contribute towards paying for English lessons for immigrants, than pay for leaflets to get printed in dozens of different languages. The English lessons will help to integrate foreigners into the local community, whereas leaflets printed in Urdu, Polish and Chinese do nothing of the sort and it just alienates them from their community.

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No, its a fair comparison with different specifics. Its about giving people in a society equal access to information. Around 800,000 adults in scotland have very low levels os literacy and numeracy. Whilst some, perhaps many, of these people will undoubtedly have learning issues, I'm presuming some had the choice to be able to learn to read and write both as children and adults. If we are a mature and civilised society, we should look after all these people - communication and information is critical to living succesfuly in a developed nation, and access to it is the responsibility of the nation.

Exactly, I totally agree. Communication is critical to living successfully. Therefore, a country such as Britain should have one language (English). If you start having people speaking hundreds of different languages, then how can people be expected to communicate effectively?

[Twa Cairpets]

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I didn't say anything about it being "countrywide", but I do stand by my statement that there are councils in Britain who refuse to be too open in their celebration of Christmas, because they do not want to offend minority groups. It was only a few days ago that I noticed a lit sign that has been put up in my home town centre, saying "Season's Greetings". No mention whatsoever of Christmas.

I think even you would accept that "seasons greetings" is a fairly innocuous term, and is in universal use around Christmas.

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Although many people will probably see me as homophobic, what exactly did I say there that could be construed as homophobic? I was stating something that actually happened. A publicly funded initiative was set up in Glasgow, inviting homosexual, bisexual and transsexual people to deface a copy of the Bible by writing messages inside it which, in my view, were vulgar.

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This Metropolitan Community Church openly embraces homosexuality, in fact most of their members are from the LGBT community. It's therefore hardly surprising that they were behind such an initiative.

However I would tend to call into question a group that call themselves Christians and yet apparently find it perfectly acceptable for their Holy book to be defaced, regardless of the nature of the messages.

I don't believe that any real Christian would think it's OK to vandalise the Bible.

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Tolerance of, and embracing, homosexuality is part of living in a diverse society. Therefore, I would say that this kind of stunt was done in the name of diversity.

What would you call it?

Ah, the "wrong type" of Christian. How silly of me. The fact that they have been disenfranchised by the mainstream doesnt worry you at all? For what its worth, I think it was something of a self-indulgent bit of art, but offensive? Not in the slightest.

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Any chance that you could maybe address the points of my post that you have quoted, instead of making this kind of rant because I have no idea what you are on about here. Unless, God forbid, you actually agree with me that there is absolutely no chance that the Qur'an would have been abused in such a manner.

And yes, Muslims have as much right to worship their faith and celebrate their festivals as anyone else. This is not about Muslims rights being decreased, it's about Christian festivals being embraced openly and publicly, which I do not believe is the case at the moment.

I think the Qu'ran probably wouldnt have been defaced in the same manner because it is even more of a restricitve and controlling religion than Christianity, but for me, I dont mind which bit of mythological pap gets defaced by those affected by internal schisms.

If it was being defaced by the BNP for inciting racial tension, then yes, I would condemn it, in exactly the same way I would condemn muslims defacing the bible for the same reason.

On your final point I do not think there is a single real example you can find of a Christian being denied the opportunity to celebrate their faith within their religion.

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I agree that amongst the general British public, Islam is far from embraced. However I do believe that Islam is viewed in a favourable light by the people in charge.

Mibbes aye, mibbes naw, but it doesnt affect what you want to believe

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...re/4504562.stm
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/442024-c...-too-religious

Will those two examples do for now?

Did you actually read your own links. The first one expressly states that they did include Christmas, and the second seems to be about a privately organised village arts festival.

Seriosuly pathetic.

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In this hypothetical example, provided that they meet all the criteria, the whole family should be allowed into the UK and the wife should be made to attend regular English lessons. Obviously the family is coming to the UK primarily because of the husband's skills as a surgeon. Therefore, the fact that he can speak English should take precedence over the fact that his wife cannot.

Where there's just one person coming over, that person should be able to speak English to be eligible for entry into this country.

a tad totalitarian dont you think?

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Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly enough. I was meaning more that it's up to those countries to bring in a law that says all immigrants must learn how to speak the language of that country, if they can't already do so.

I would rather contribute towards paying for English lessons for immigrants, than pay for leaflets to get printed in dozens of different languages. The English lessons will help to integrate foreigners into the local community, whereas leaflets printed in Urdu, Polish and Chinese do nothing of the sort and it just alienates them from their community.

If you are an economic migrant, do you not think that there would be a massive advantage in being able to speak English if you are coming to work. Underpinning all this part of a debate is an assumption that therer are hordes of monolingual foreigners running around. I suspect this is mostly bollox.

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Exactly, I totally agree. Communication is critical to living successfully. Therefore, a country such as Britain should have one language (English). If you start having people speaking hundreds of different languages, then how can people be expected to communicate effectively?

No-one is saying that the nation should become multilingual, but the basic fact of th ematter is that there are countless languaged spoken, and being an evolved society involves understanding this, not becoming a third world nation with an oppresive view of anything external.

[Phil D. Rolls]

Has anyone considered the option of restricting people who don't speak English to seperate areas of the city. That way it is safer for them and they won't have to worry about being picked on by other cultures. It worked for Botha.

[Dashing Bob S]

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Has anyone considered the option of restricting people who don't speak English to seperate areas of the city. That way it is safer for them and they won't have to worry about being picked on by other cultures. It worked for Botha.

But it doesn't work, FR. We've tried it for years in the Gorgie-Dalry area of our own city, and experience suggests is that all it does is breed a mutant underclass with delusions of grandeur, who drag children into public toilets and walk around twirling scarves in the air.

[Sylar]

Won't anyone think of the children?!?

[Betty Boop]

I could be worse, some Austrians want to ban Santa!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/ch...Christmas.html

[BravestHibs]

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So as usual you will come back and berate me for my opinions. Call me racist if you want but at least I stand by my opinions, whether you agree with them or not, and I don't follow on like the majority of sheep on this forum, full of do-gooders and the PC brigade.

"At least I stand by my own simplistic racism."

Well for that at least, you should be commended.

"Although I know this is a catering company who rent the space from Hibs, it doesn't show Hibs up in a great light as their customer service is crap."

You stand by it so much that you try and turn your hatred of the poles into bad customer service issue. Way to stand up for your opinions.

WE ARRA SHEEPLE!!!

[Phil D. Rolls]

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"At least I stand by my own simplistic racism."

Well for that at least, you should be commended.

"Although I know this is a catering company who rent the space from Hibs, it doesn't show Hibs up in a great light as their customer service is crap."

You stand by it so much that you try and turn your hatred of the poles into bad customer service issue. Way to stand up for your opinions.

WE ARRA SHEEPLE!!!

Baaaaa humbug.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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But it doesn't work, FR. We've tried it for years in the Gorgie-Dalry area of our own city, and experience suggests is that all it does is breed a mutant underclass with delusions of grandeur, who drag children into public toilets and walk around twirling scarves in the air.

At least we know where they are though.

[BravestHibs]

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So as usual you will come back and berate me for my opinions. Call me racist if you want but at least I stand by my opinions, whether you agree with them or not, and I don't follow on like the majority of sheep on this forum, full of do-gooders and the PC brigade.

I'm a MAC.

[ArabHibee]

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"At least I stand by my own simplistic racism."

Well for that at least, you should be commended.

"Although I know this is a catering company who rent the space from Hibs, it doesn't show Hibs up in a great light as their customer service is crap."

You stand by it so much that you try and turn your hatred of the poles into bad customer service issue. Way to stand up for your opinions.

WE ARRA SHEEPLE!!!

Don't remember posting that any of the johnny foreigners in BTG were Poles. That you make assumptions again?

[Twa Cairpets]

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Don't remember posting that any of the johnny foreigners in BTG were Poles. That you make assumptions again?

I'm guessing they were Eastern European though, eh? Typical defence of the morally bankrupt argument - try to pick up small issues to discredit the fundamental correctness of the point being made.

[BravestHibs]

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Don't remember posting that any of the johnny foreigners in BTG were Poles. That you make assumptions again?

This thread has been like watching AH undergoing major surjery with no anasthetic. Not enjoyable exactly, but strangely compelling.

[ArabHibee]

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I'm guessing they were Eastern European though, eh? Typical defence of the morally bankrupt argument - try to pick up small issues to discredit the fundamental correctness of the point being made.

Question was actually directed at BravestHibs, which he chose to ignore. More so for the fact that he picks up on every little error that people (who he doesn't agree with) make, whether it be spelling, grammar, punctuation or the like.

I personally don't know if they were Eastern European, I don't think if I had asked them that they would have been able to answer, seeing as they didn't speak English.

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This thread has been like watching AH undergoing major surjery with no anasthetic. Not enjoyable exactly, but strangely compelling.

Whatever floats yer boat. I don't mind being called small-minded, racist or whatever other fancy words you want to use. I don't agree with people coming to this country to work unless they are bringing something worthwhile with them and that they can speak English.

[Sylar]

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Whatever floats yer boat. I don't mind being called small-minded, racist or whatever other fancy words you want to use. I don't agree with people coming to this country to work unless they are bringing something worthwhile with them and that they can speak English.

Define "worthwhile" though? There are a lot of s***e jobs out there which many foreign migrants are willing to take (and for poor pay too) that many "British Nationals" would scoff at, rather taking the doll option than "debase themselves" to manual labour, be it cleaning, agricultural or public service.

We should look to put our own house in order before we lambast those who have upped sticks and are willing to move to pastures anew and make a go at a new life.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Question was actually directed at BravestHibs, which he chose to ignore. More so for the fact that he picks up on every little error that people (who he doesn't agree with) make, whether it be spelling, grammar, punctuation or the like.

I personally don't know if they were Eastern European, I don't think if I had asked them that they would have been able to answer, seeing as they didn't speak English.



Whatever floats yer boat. I don't mind being called small-minded, racist or whatever other fancy words you want to use. I don't agree with people coming to this country to work unless they are bringing something worthwhile with them and that they can speak English.

You go girl.

[BravestHibs]

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Question was actually directed at BravestHibs, which he chose to ignore. More so for the fact that he picks up on every little error that people (who he doesn't agree with) make, whether it be spelling, grammar, punctuation or the like.

I personally don't know if they were Eastern European, I don't think if I had asked them that they would have been able to answer, seeing as they didn't speak English.



Whatever floats yer boat. I don't mind being called small-minded, racist or whatever other fancy words you want to use. I don't agree with people coming to this country to work unless they are bringing something worthwhile with them and that they can speak English.

You think 'racist' is a fancy word? I truly do feel sorry for you.

I didn't answer your question because it was peurile. But if you must know I've been to behind the goals and have been served by the same 'jonny foreigners' as you have that's how I know that they are polish.

[ArabHibee]

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Define "worthwhile" though? There are a lot of s***e jobs out there which many foreign migrants are willing to take (and for poor pay too) that many "British Nationals" would scoff at, rather taking the doll option than "debase themselves" to manual labour, be it cleaning, agricultural or public service.

We should look to put our own house in order before we lambast those who have upped sticks and are willing to move to pastures anew and make a go at a new life.

Fair comment and my idea of worthwhile will definitely not be the same as a lot of other people's.

Who did these manual jobs before all the foreign migrants?

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Fair comment and my idea of worthwhile will definitely not be the same as a lot of other people's.

Who did these manual jobs before all the foreign migrants?

Your ancestors, who were almost certainly foreign immigrants at one time as well.

[ArabHibee]

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Your ancestors, who were almost certainly foreign immigrants at one time as well.

FR - can you stop being arsey for just one minute. I'm talking about in the last 20 to 30 years, as you well know.

[ArabHibee]

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You think 'racist' is a fancy word? I truly do feel sorry for you.

I didn't answer your question because it was peurile. But if you must know I've been to behind the goals and have been served by the same 'jonny foreigners' as you have that's how I know that they are polish.

No I don't think racist is a fancy word. I'm talking about you, you can't just use normal words, you have to use fancy big "look at me words" to get your point across.

And how do you know they are polish? Did you try to chat them up and they told you to "Spierdalaj"?

[Phil D. Rolls]

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FR - can you stop being arsey for just one minute. I'm talking about in the last 20 to 30 years, as you well know.

Yeah right.

That would have been the Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and the Indians. Maybe even the Irish. IIRC a lot of British people were taking advantage of their new found EU status and were in Germany and Holland doing work over there.

[ArabHibee]

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Yeah right.

That would have been the Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and the Indians. Maybe even the Irish. IIRC a lot of British people were taking advantage of their new found EU status and were in Germany and Holland doing work over there.

Hmmm, don't remember many of them picking berries and tatties to be honest with you.

And were the British people going to Germany and The Netherlands doing menial work over there? And what I mean by that is cleaning, agricultural, service industry? I personally don't think so.

[BravestHibs]

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No I don't think racist is a fancy word. I'm talking about you, you can't just use normal words, you have to use fancy big "look at me words" to get your point across.

And how do you know they are polish? Did you try to chat them up and they told you to "Spierdalaj"?

'Big look at me words'. Your grasp of the English language is quite staggering. To address your initial point as to why I can't 'just use normal words' it's because if I used phrases such as 'look at me words' people would, rightly, think that I was an idiot. I have a theory as to why our opinions differ on this matter. Would you like to hear it?

FWIW I'm spoken for so I didn't try and chat them up, but I have spent enough time in Poland to recognise the language when I hear it spoken.

[ArabHibee]

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'Big look at me words'. Your grasp of the English language is quite staggering. To address your initial point as to why I can't 'just use normal words' it's because if I used phrases such as 'look at me words' people would, rightly, think that I was an idiot. I have a theory as to why our opinions differ on this matter. Would you like to hear it?

FWIW I'm spoken for so I didn't try and chat them up, but I have spent enough time in Poland to recognise the language when I hear it spoken.

Mon then. Don't use "big look at me words" though or I'll not understand your point.

[Dashing Bob S]

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Hmmm, don't remember many of them picking berries and tatties to be honest with you.

And were the British people going to Germany and The Netherlands doing menial work over there? And what I mean by that is cleaning, agricultural, service industry? I personally don't think so.

I don't think i've seen a white, indigenous British toilet cleaner for about twenty years.

Like it or not, we're full of fat, lazy, spoiled indolent types who don't really want to work, yet see think nothing of coming out with virulent racism against those who do, usually while blowing cigarette smoke or swirling back cheap lager.

[BravestHibs]

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Mon then. Don't use "big look at me words" though or I'll not understand your point.

OK here it is.

I think that growing up, you have been surrounded by people, who like you, think that a word with more than two syllables is a 'fancy word' and if you were to try and use these 'fancy words' you would be shot down by your toothless Dundonian mates. Instead of having a bit of back bone and developing your vocabulary regardless you felt that to fit in you'd be better off adopting this attitude as well.

[Green Mikey]

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Hmmm, don't remember many of them picking berries and tatties to be honest with you.

And were the British people going to Germany and The Netherlands doing menial work over there? And what I mean by that is cleaning, agricultural, service industry? I personally don't think so.

Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis didn't pick berries and tatties because a lot of them showed great entrepeneurship opened family businesses. Is a owning a business a 'worthwhile' occupation for immigrants?

Immigrants doing menial work has both historical and current context. The history of Britain shows many influxes of immigrants over time. In particular the Irish and West Indians have come to this country and had to start out doing menial work. More recently the exponential growth of our economy in the 1990s and early 2000s coupled with EU immigration laws created an environment in Britain where there was many new low paid jobs and a large supply of immigrant workers.

[ArabHibee]

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OK here it is.

I think that growing up, you have been surrounded by people, who like you, think that a word with more than two syllables is a 'fancy word' and if you were to try and use these 'fancy words' you would be shot down by your toothless Dundonian mates. Instead of having a bit of back bone and developing your vocabulary regardless you felt that to fit in you'd be better off adopting this attitude as well.

That made me laugh, it truly did. Especially the "toothless Dundonian mates".

[BravestHibs]

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That made me laugh, it truly did. Especially the "toothless Dundonian mates".

I'm glad you liked it. Would you say it was accurate?