Armed Forces Day

[Phil D. Rolls]

Does anyone think that the armed forces are being used to support Brown's stated agenda of promoting "Britishness", in light of the decision to hold a massive celebration of the military in the Scottish capital?

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scot...med.5833061.jp

You madam, in the third row with the shaved head and Tank Girl t-shirt. (You may look like a butch dyke, but I'm not allowed to say it.

[lapsedhibee]

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Does anyone think that the armed forces are being used to support Brown's stated agenda of promoting "Britishness", in light of the decision to hold a massive celebration of the military in the Scottish capital?

Delicately put. I'll go for ...

Subversive tree hugging commie traitors 0, Crazed bloodthirsty warmongering butchers 1.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Delicately put. I'll go for ...

Subversive tree hugging commie traitors 0, Crazed bloodthirsty warmongering butchers 1.

OK, cards on the table. I think it is a case of finding something, anything, that everyone in Britain has in common. I also think it is scarily similair to those May Day shows of strength that communist states are fond of.

[Dashing Bob S]

Yes, it's all as obnoxious and transparent and psuedo right-wing Tory as New Labour can be.

They can't do one simple thing without some sort of social engineering/propaganda/spin hidden agenda. You can see the naked, cynical calculation in it a million miles away.

[Betty Boop]

Yet more propoganda from Gordon Brown, but I doubt he will be around next June as Prime Minister, and it will be Cameron cheer-leading the event.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Yet more propoganda from Gordon Brown, but I doubt he will be around next June as Prime Minister, and it will be Cameron cheer-leading the event.

In which case it will be interesting to see how the Scottish public responds. It's one thing having a dour Fifer telling us to rally round the UJ. It may be totally dfferent if it''s an English toff.

[marinello59]

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In which case it will be interesting to see how the Scottish public responds. It's one thing having a dour Fifer telling us to rally round the UJ. It may be totally dfferent if it''s an English toff.

Just to give a bit of balance. (Can't have the entire thread consisting of "moral outrage" at this. )

Arned Forces day was held this year with events in major towns and cities up and down the UK. There are large sections of the population who wish to show some form of appreciation for the job done by our current Military personnel so a need was met. That seems like a good thing for me. (On the flip side there are plenty of people wishing to give serving military personnel a verbal lashing.........they can log on here for that.)

I can't say I noticed that there had been one venue selected as a "major host location" this year but apparently Chatham hosted this in 2009 with Cardiff scheduled for 2010. (Belfast 2012 anyone?). Yeap, that does make me feel slightly uncomfortable but "Government Exploits Military for Political Gain" is not going to be the most shocking headline ever written.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Just to give a bit of balance. (Can't have the entire thread consisting of "moral outrage" at this. )

Arned Forces day was held this year with events in major towns and cities up and down the UK. There are large sections of the population who wish to show some form of appreciation for the job done by our current Military personnel so a need was met. That seems like a good thing for me. (On the flip side there are plenty of people wishing to give serving military personnel a verbal lashing.........they can log on here for that.)

I can't say I noticed that there had been one venue selected as a "major host location" this year but apparently Chatham hosted this in 2009 with Cardiff scheduled for 2010. (Belfast 2012 anyone?). Yeap, that does make me feel slightly uncomfortable but "Government Exploits Military for Political Gain" is not going to be the most shocking headline ever written.

I don't want this to drift into a heated, emotive debate like we had about remembrance. Another one of those and Hibs.net will end up with it's own poppy day for the "brave lads" who fought on those threads.

I do question though why such a big deal is made of the forces, when there are many other public servants doing their bit for the nation.

Personally, I feel that one of the unique institutions that defines British society is the NHS. (OK,who would have guessed that?). I can't see a parade of the people who do that job getting off the ground. There are lot of others, like the police, teachers and just about anyone who works and contributes to our society who don't get national recognition.

Neither did the forces until recently. So why the big surge in celebrating Britain's military might? I think it is disproportionate, and a cynical piece of propaganda.

[Jack]

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Does anyone think that the armed forces are being used to support Brown's stated agenda of promoting "Britishness", in light of the decision to hold a massive celebration of the military in the Scottish capital?

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scot...med.5833061.jp

You madam, in the third row with the shaved head and Tank Girl t-shirt. (You may look like a butch dyke, but I'm not allowed to say it.

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OK, cards on the table. I think it is a case of finding something, anything, that everyone in Britain has in common. I also think it is scarily similair to those May Day shows of strength that communist states are fond of.

Is this not the celebration that the great Sun newspaper instigated? Not Gordy or Nulab!

Would any of the other political parties have said no if they had been in power when the thing started in the UK about 3, maybe 4, years ago?

If you're looking at using / abusing the Forces to reinforce crumbling Governments / political parties might I suggest Margaret Thatcher’s mob and their wee trip to the Falklands and the following years elections are more appropriate candidates.

And anyway, what's wrong with us celebrating our Forces Day … the same as all these other communist countries do?

Armenia; Azerbaijan; Australia and New Zealand; Brazil; Bulgaria; Canada; Chile; China; Republic of China (Taiwan); People's Republic of China (Mainland China); Croatia; Egypt; Guatemala; Hungary; India; Indonesia; Iran; Israel; Italy; Lebanon; Montenegro; Myanmar; Pakistan; Peru; Poland; Romania; Russia; Singapore; Slovenia; South Korea; Sri Lanka; United States; Vietnam. [Thanks Wiki but FR said it was like what just Communists were fond of!]


Still, I suppose if you say / write something often enough you may just convince someone, other than yourself, that it must be true.

[marinello59]

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I don't want this to drift into a heated, emotive debate like we had about remembrance. Another one of those and Hibs.net will end up with it's own poppy day for the "brave lads" who fought on those threads.

I do question though why such a big deal is made of the forces, when there are many other public servants doing their bit for the nation.

Personally, I feel that one of the unique institutions that defines British society is the NHS. (OK,who would have guessed that?). I can't see a parade of the people who do that job getting off the ground. There are lot of others, like the police, teachers and just about anyone who works and contributes to our society who don't get national recognition.

Neither did the forces until recently. So why the big surge in celebrating Britain's military might? I think it is disproportionate, and a cynical piece of propaganda.

If they load up Polaris missiles on to trailers and have them follow squadrons of tanks down our High streets then I will concede that this is a show of military might.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Is this not the celebration that the great Sun newspaper instigated? Not Gordy or Nulab!

Would any of the other political parties have said no if they had been in power when the thing started in the UK about 3, maybe 4, years ago?

If you're looking at using / abusing the Forces to reinforce crumbling Governments / political parties might I suggest Margaret Thatcher’s mob and their wee trip to the Falklands and the following years elections are more appropriate candidates.

And anyway, what's wrong with us celebrating our Forces Day … the same as all these other communist countries do?

Armenia; Azerbaijan; Australia and New Zealand; Brazil; Bulgaria; Canada; Chile; China; Republic of China (Taiwan); People's Republic of China (Mainland China); Croatia; Egypt; Guatemala; Hungary; India; Indonesia; Iran; Israel; Italy; Lebanon; Montenegro; Myanmar; Pakistan; Peru; Poland; Romania; Russia; Singapore; Slovenia; South Korea; Sri Lanka; United States; Vietnam. [Thanks Wiki but FR said it was like what just Communists were fond of!]


Still, I suppose if you say / write something often enough you may just convince someone, other than yourself, that it must be true.

Is there any need for that? As you must be aware, there are different views on this subject. They were touched upon in other threads, then we have the news today, so I thought it might be a suitable discussion subject for the Holy Ground.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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If they load up Polaris missiles on to trailers and have them follow squadrons of tanks down our High streets then I will concede that this is a show of military might.

Regardless of their motivation, I'd pay to see that. Throw in the politburo (Cardownie et al) on a platform and a couple of dancing bears and they can forget about using the Festival as a money spinner.

[Jack]

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I don't want this to drift into a heated, emotive debate like we had about remembrance. Another one of those and Hibs.net will end up with it's own poppy day for the "brave lads" who fought on those threads.

I do question though why such a big deal is made of the forces, when there are many other public servants doing their bit for the nation.

Personally, I feel that one of the unique institutions that defines British society is the NHS. (OK,who would have guessed that?). I can't see a parade of the people who do that job getting off the ground. There are lot of others, like the police, teachers and just about anyone who works and contributes to our society who don't get national recognition.

Neither did the forces until recently. So why the big surge in celebrating Britain's military might? I think it is disproportionate, and a cynical piece of propaganda.

http://www.scottishhealthawards.com/
Now it might not be a march along or down the High Street but, IIRC, its packed out the SECC. A recognition of the work done by the NHS . Instigated by the Daily Ranger and picked up and run with by the Scottish Government.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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http://www.scottishhealthawards.com/
Now it might not be a march along or down the High Street but, IIRC, its packed out the SECC. A recognition of the work done by the NHS . Instigated by the Daily Ranger and picked up and run with by the Scottish Government.

Don't suppose it would do much for tourism either when you think about it.

[steakbake]

Respect for the job the armed forces do is one thing. Trying to generate public adulation of it while it marches down a city street in a parade is quite another.

I guess I'm pssing in the wind with my objection to it for as much as we have bleeding heart liberals like me, we also have their far more right wing (but dont event realise it) counterparts who would think this sort of thing is marvellous, harmless fun. It doesn't surprise me that the Sun is behind this.

I always thought that military parades, flypasts and public expressions of adulation of the military was something best left to banana republics and oppressive regimes.

[Jack]

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Is there any need for that? As you must be aware, there are different views on this subject. They were touched upon in other threads, then we have the news today, so I thought it might be a suitable discussion subject for the Holy Ground.

With all due respect FR this is my view on this subject. Every time something comes up about celebrating our Armed Forces you turn it into some sort of Gordon Brown publicity stunt.

My post above points out that;

1. This Forces Day thingy wasn’t instigated by Labour, I’m not even sure GB was President then, I mean Prime Minster And while it was dreamt up by a rag newspaper, desperate for sales, it would have been difficult for any political party to have said no. So politicians and political parties are pretty much irrelevant in what's behind Forces Day.

2. The UK is not the only non-communist state to celebrate its armed forces with a ‘Day’. Your parallel to communist states was therefore inaccurate and misleading.

Your posts don’t seem to be able to separate our armed forces and what they are required to do the Government and/or Parliament.

So yes Sir, you, the one down the front, the one that wont let go the bone!

This Government have plenty to be criticised for without the need to make inaccurate or misleading statements politicising the Armed Forces or a day to celebrate them.

[steakbake]

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Respect for the job the armed forces do is one thing. Trying to generate public adulation of it while it marches down a city street in a parade is quite another.

I guess I'm pssing in the wind with my objection to it for as much as we have bleeding heart liberals like me, we also have their far more right wing (but dont event realise it) counterparts who would think this sort of thing is marvellous, harmless fun. It doesn't surprise me that the Sun is behind this.

I always thought that military parades, flypasts and public expressions of adulation of the military was something best left to banana republics and oppressive regimes.

... but then maybe that's where we are but cannot admit it to ourselves?

[marinello59]

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Respect for the job the armed forces do is one thing. Trying to generate public adulation of it while it marches down a city street in a parade is quite another.

I guess I'm pssing in the wind with my objection to it for as much as we have bleeding heart liberals like me, we also have their far more right wing (but dont event realise it) counterparts who would think this sort of thing is marvellous, harmless fun. It doesn't surprise me that the Sun is behind this.

I always thought that military parades, flypasts and public expressions of adulation of the military was something best left to banana republics and oppressive regimes.

Are you making a point there or merely grabbing the moral high ground?
Does polite applause count as adulation? Is there an acceptable level of appreciation that can be shown before those doing so are branded as right wing nutters. (Even though they don't know it.)

[AndyP]

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Respect for the job the armed forces do is one thing. Trying to generate public adulation of it while it marches down a city street in a parade is quite another.

I guess I'm pssing in the wind with my objection to it for as much as we have bleeding heart liberals like me, we also have their far more right wing (but dont event realise it) counterparts who would think this sort of thing is marvellous, harmless fun. It doesn't surprise me that the Sun is behind this.

I always thought that military parades, flypasts and public expressions of adulation of the military was something best left to banana republics and oppressive regimes.

So you think that the Edinburgh Tatoo would be better off not being held every year then after all it covers at least two thirds of your criteria

Personally things like this were always a royal pain in the thungas, especially with the dress rehersalls at stupid o'clock before then going on for a full days work however such was life in the Kermit suit.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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With all due respect FR this is my view on this subject. Every time something comes up about celebrating our Armed Forces you turn it into some sort of Gordon Brown publicity stunt.

My post above points out that;

1. This Forces Day thingy wasn’t instigated by Labour, I’m not even sure GB was President then, I mean Prime Minster And while it was dreamt up by a rag newspaper, desperate for sales, it would have been difficult for any political party to have said no. So politicians and political parties are pretty much irrelevant in what's behind Forces Day.

2. The UK is not the only non-communist state to celebrate its armed forces with a ‘Day’. Your parallel to communist states was therefore inaccurate and misleading.

Your posts don’t seem to be able to separate our armed forces and what they are required to do the Government and/or Parliament.

So yes Sir, you, the one down the front, the one that wont let go the bone!

This Government have plenty to be criticised for without the need to make inaccurate or misleading statements politicising the Armed Forces or a day to celebrate them.

I wasn't aware that an anti-Brown agenda stood out amongst my many axes to grind. I quite like the bloke really, in fact - now that I come to think about it, I stood up for him when the Sun attacked him over Jamie Janes, and I was pretty annoyed about the Andrew Marr interview as well.

The whole communist analogy was a response to the joke about it being commie tree huggers that complain about these shows of military strength.

My opinion - and it's only an opinion - is that the government are quite happy to get into bed with the Sun over this. History shows that playing up patriotism has been used as a diversionary tactic by other regimes in the past.

You have to admit, when something new comes along, you have to ask what the hidden agenda is. You have to ask, because others might know something you don't.

And - to be honest - it does become hard to seperate what the armed forces do from the government of the day. After all, they take their instructions from the government.

And, if it is just about saying thank you to soldiers, then why just soldiers?

[Jack]

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Respect for the job the armed forces do is one thing. Trying to generate public adulation of it while it marches down a city street in a parade is quite another.

I guess I'm pssing in the wind with my objection to it for as much as we have bleeding heart liberals like me, we also have their far more right wing (but dont event realise it) counterparts who would think this sort of thing is marvellous, harmless fun. It doesn't surprise me that the Sun is behind this.

I always thought that military parades, flypasts and public expressions of adulation of the military was something best left to banana republics and oppressive regimes.

I’m not sure is public adulation, perhaps more public appreciation. If you look at the list of countries I posted above that have similar ‘Days’ it would be impossible to pigeon hole them into one political band, they seem to come from all persuasions. So there would seem to be some common principle in the wish acknowledge these guys do a really *****ty job and perhaps the celebration is, subconsciously, we’re not doing it.

I doubt I’ll be standing on the Royal Mile in 2011 with a Saltire or Union Jack but I might be down the docks having a look round the ships or taking a good vantage point to watch the planes. In fact I’m looking to book a holiday in San Francisco next year to coincide with their US Navy Week – bigger boats and more planes. Big boys toys!

[AndyP]

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[FONT=Verdana]
[FONT=Verdana]1. This Forces Day thingy wasn’t instigated by Labour, I’m not even sure GB was President then, I mean Prime Minster And while it was dreamt up by a rag newspaper, desperate for sales, it would have been difficult for any political party to have said no. So politicians and political parties are pretty much irrelevant in what's behind Forces Day.

Jack, think you might be mistaken on this bit, Brown certainly instigated the AFD in 2008, so he was in the hot seat. I'm also fairly certain that whilst The Sun likes to take credit for every event under the sun it was actually a growing resentment within the forces of how they were being treated when in uniform back in Blighty. This is around the time that Harrods refused to allow a servicemen in uniform into their store plus there were little locally reported incidents when shop staff refused to serve them alcohol.

There were other in-house complaints being levelled at ZanULiebour which were significant enough to see an Armed Forces Federation being set up to give the guys on the ground representation on a level up to ministerial.


There was also a growing groundswell of support for the reintroduction of the Royal Tournament and this was Browns attempt to placate this.

I've also added a link to a Times article from that period giving a little bit more background

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle3965047.ece

[steakbake]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnZBgiZ3d8s - Military Parade

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr9Dg8MIZDw - Tattoo

Very different.

I appreciate that there is a will to show support for armed forces and demonstrate that we think that they have a tough job and support them in this, but why is this a "day"? Brown came up with the idea of Britishness Day, but it got mangled into this when they figured that not enough people would be willing to artificially rally round the flag. So the next step - who do the public have sympathy for hmmm? Maybe it will deflect attention away from those who actually put them in harms way in the first place?

We have Rememberance Day to remember those killed - what should we really be thinking about during our silences? What is the point of it all? Oh well, thats x hundreds of thousands dead, I wonder where our leaders will send them next?

We have Rememberance Sunday. (different threads). We get all maudlin about it, have fights about it on internet forums. But now we've got Armed Forces Day to cheer and applaud our military strength which has not been used to defend us (in the definition of defence) for several generations as is instead a used as the armed wing of our questionable foreign policy.

Scuse me for being cynical, but this is all just utter bollocks.

[Dashing Bob S]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnZBgiZ3d8s - Military Parade

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr9Dg8MIZDw - Tattoo

Very different.

I appreciate that there is a will to show support for armed forces and demonstrate that we think that they have a tough job and support them in this, but why is this a "day"? Brown came up with the idea of Britishness Day, but it got mangled into this when they figured that not enough people would be willing to artificially rally round the flag. So the next step - who do the public have sympathy for hmmm? Maybe it will deflect attention away from those who actually put them in harms way in the first place?

We have Rememberance Day to remember those killed - what should we really be thinking about during our silences? What is the point of it all? Oh well, thats x hundreds of thousands dead, I wonder where our leaders will send them next?

We have Rememberance Sunday. (different threads). We get all maudlin about it, have fights about it on internet forums. But now we've got Armed Forces Day to cheer and applaud our military strength which has not been used to defend us (in the definition of defence) for several generations as is instead a used as the armed wing of our questionable foreign policy.

Scuse me for being cynical, but this is all just utter bollocks.

Fantastic post, BH.

[Jack]

I’ll have to make this the last post, certainly of this evening, as my young son will be nicking the PC shortly and I'll be restricted to phone.

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I wasn't aware that an anti-Brown agenda stood out amongst my many axes to grind. I quite like the bloke really, in fact - now that I come to think about it, I stood up for him when the Sun attacked him over Jamie Janes, and I was pretty annoyed about the Andrew Marr interview as well.

why does it split posts like this

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The whole communist analogy was a response to the joke about it being commie tree huggers that complain about these shows of military strength.

My opinion - and it's only an opinion - is that the government are quite happy to get into bed with the Sun over this. History shows that playing up patriotism has been used as a diversionary tactic by other regimes in the past.

You have to admit, when something new comes along, you have to ask what the hidden agenda is. You have to ask, because others might know something you don't.

And - to be honest - it does become hard to seperate what the armed forces do from the government of the day. After all, they take their instructions from the government.

And, if it is just about saying thank you to soldiers, then why just soldiers?

Fair doos. I suppose at the end of the day I have no difficulty separating the government and the armed forces.

I take it by soldiers you mean the ‘armed forces’, which is all of them, Army, Navy, RAF and probably all the secret ones too! So we thank all the Forces.

If you mean why don’t we thank EVERYBODY publically I suspect most of us, as you say, would have to wait a long time!

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Jack, think you might be mistaken on this bit, Brown certainly instigated the AFD in 2008, so he was in the hot seat. I'm also fairly certain that whilst The Sun likes to take credit for every event under the sun it was actually a growing resentment within the forces of how they were being treated when in uniform back in Blighty. This is around the time that Harrods refused to allow a servicemen in uniform into their store plus there were little locally reported incidents when shop staff refused to serve them alcohol.

and this even when you delete it it comes back

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There were other in-house complaints being levelled at ZanULiebour which were significant enough to see an Armed Forces Federation being set up to give the guys on the ground representation on a level up to ministerial.


There was also a growing groundswell of support for the reintroduction of the Royal Tournament and this was Browns attempt to placate this.

I've also added a link to a Times article from that period giving a little bit more background

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/leading_article/article3965047.ece

I remember that [and as I discovered just last week when a wee p!shed squaddie type accosted me while I was outside a pub while I had a cigarette, it still goes on – although I thought it probably was more due to the fact he was drunk rather than he was a squaddie!].

I think though the point I made earlier, about it having little to do with who was in power at the time, is still valid.

With the ground swell of public opinion, being vocally outraged by such events, something quite showy had to be done and whoever was in power at the time would have done it, Forces Day, or something similar.

When you look at the fact that so many other countries already did it its kind of surprising we hadn’t done it before given our penchant for pageantry.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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[COLOR=black]

Fair doos. I suppose at the end of the day I have no difficulty separating the government and the armed forces.

I take it by soldiers you mean the ‘armed forces’, which is all of them, Army, Navy, RAF and probably all the secret ones too! So we thank all the Forces.

Yes

If you mean why don’t we thank EVERYBODY publically I suspect most of us, as you say, would have to wait a long time!

Agreed.


and this even when you delete it it comes back

When you look at the fact that so many other countries already did it its kind of surprising we hadn’t done it before given our penchant for pageantry.

Maybe it had bad connotations with Imperialism - especially in the second half of the 20th Century? And fighting a civil war in Ireland at the time it could have been waving a red rag?

Nice to have a civilised debate Jack.

[Jack]

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Nice to have a civilised debate Jack.

Its a lot easier, and more rewarding, than a lot of folk think it is

[The Harp Awakes]

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In which case it will be interesting to see how the Scottish public responds. It's one thing having a dour Fifer telling us to rally round the UJ. It may be totally dfferent if it''s an English toff.

Totally agree. A Tory Government in Westminster prior to 2011 will no doubt turn this event into a red, white and blue, British flag waving, unionist extravaganza. Can't wait

I wonder how long it will be before we see Cameron standing outside No10 doing an impersonation of Maggie during the Falklands War at the sinking of the General Belgrano, telling us to Rejoice, Rejoice, Rejoice at killing the enemy.

[steakbake]

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Totally agree. A Tory Government in Westminster prior to 2011 will no doubt turn this event into a red, white and blue, British flag waving, unionist extravaganza. Can't wait

I wonder how long it will be before we see Cameron standing outside No10 doing an impersonation of Maggie during the Falklands War at the sinking of the General Belgrano, telling us to Rejoice, Rejoice, Rejoice at killing the enemy.

I dont think Cameron is given to that kind of patriotism. I think Cameron is English first, by a country mile. Britain/the British is just a word he has to use, he doesn't need to mean anything by it.

Brown dreamt up Britishness Day because shortly after the 6-8 month period when he first came in (when he might have won a general election!), the message from the doorstep in England was that they didn't like having a Scot as PM.

[marinello59]

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Totally agree. A Tory Government in Westminster prior to 2011 will no doubt turn this event into a red, white and blue, British flag waving, unionist extravaganza. Can't wait

I wonder how long it will be before we see Cameron standing outside No10 doing an impersonation of Maggie during the Falklands War at the sinking of the General Belgrano, telling us to Rejoice, Rejoice, Rejoice at killing the enemy.

I am always up for a Thatcher kicking but lets get the facts right.