How come a club like Norwich...

[Brizo]

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certainly from 1950s onwards there were plenty of such stories about beatings/punishment and still recall football playing being actively discouraged at state schools in 1980s.

I know for a fact that a number of Embra fee paying schools have played fitba for many years now. They have their own fee paying schools Cup and some but not all enter the local Cup competitions and play against the comprehensives. Fettes College away at Castlebrae will be a culture shock for all concerned if that fixture ever gets drawn out the hat

So tbh Joe I dont think your comments are that relevant to the current situation. What Embras OF fans and Embras rugby fans have in common is that the vast majority of both are basically armchair supports. As others have alluded to you only need to head slightly west to Broxburn or Armadale or slightly east to Port Seton and Prestonpans to see the armchair OF effect in what should be Embra team catchment areas.

[LHWM]

Hibs in the early 50s and Hearts at the end of the 50s had the 2nd biggest 'home' crowds. Which was certainly down to the success of both teams.

Hypothetically if there was a 'United Edinburgh' team and you combined the average home league gates of both sides this give

1974-75 24777
1975-76 25331
1976-77 21881
1977-78 17768
1978-79 20195
1979-80 15076
1980-81 10994
1981-82 11701
1982-83 12562
1983-84 18436
1984-85 17441
1985-86 23424
1986-87 22042
1987-88 26619
1988-89 28394
1989-90 25344
1990-91 22014
1991-92 22582
1992-93 19921
1993-94 21748
1994-95 18981
1995-96 22646
1996-97 25097
1997-98 27954
1998-99 23920
1999-00 26480
2000-01 23961
2001-02 25195
2002-03 23726
2003-04 21305
2004-05 26298
2005-06 29974
2006-07 31082
2007-08 27879
2008-09 27626

So the average over the last 10 years has been 26,352. A better comparison.

[jgl07]

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Your real problem is Old Firm gloryhunters. Celtic and Rangers each have about 9,000 ST Holders with EH Postcodes.

Be wary of Edinburgh postcodes.

The whole of West Lothian has Edinburgh postcodes. Rangers supporting areas such as Armadale have EH48 postcodes.

[LHWM]

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Be wary of Edinburgh postcodes.

The whole of West Lothian has Edinburgh postcodes. Rangers supporting areas such as Armadale have EH48 postcodes.

Surely EH1690 Postcodes?

[jgl07]

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Surely EH1690 Postcodes?

I thought that was Blackridge.

The self styled 'No hang-gun town" has two places of entertainment:

The Masonic Lodge and Broxy's Rangers theme pub. At least it did until a drunken tramp managed to burn out Broxy's a few years back.

[AndyM_1875]

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Be wary of Edinburgh postcodes.

The whole of West Lothian has Edinburgh postcodes. Rangers supporting areas such as Armadale have EH48 postcodes.

Point taken. But it is still true to say that Both Old Firms clubs still have significant numbers from the Edinburgh area in their ST make up that are non West Lothian and are made up of people born and brought up in Edinburgh.

Those folk..... I just don't get.

[Wakeyhibee]

Whilst there are teams such as Norwich and Burnley doing very well there are examples of English teams who don't do so well out of the their catchment area. After all Scottish football is watched by more people per capita than in England.

Where Scotland has failed has been to emulate the expansion in support that has happened in England over the last 15-20 years. Scotlands crowds have been largely the same (around 4m per season) since the early 60's after the post war boom subsided. The only real change being a shift of 1m of those now watching the OF at home.

More recently I think the main reasons for this are:-

Stadia and facilities have been poor and slow to change in comparison to England, until very recently. Scotland is now catching up but has missed the bandwagon with another recession in full flow. Also many teams such as St Mirren will never be able to match their previous averages due to the capacity available to them.

Competition is non existant in the SPL. The shift to supporting the OF is a direct result of the set up in Scotland. Too many mid ranking teams are now also rans such as Dundee, Partick, Morton, Dunfermline, St Johnstone.

Marketing & Investment - England has marketed it's leagues (especially lower leagues) to much better effect than Scotland. It has also enjoyed vastly more investment from business and councils. This means that so-called smaller teams with half Hibs support can pay more in wages. Teams such as Doncaster have risen from nowhere to new municipal stadia without a debt to pay.

I don't go with the Rugby argument as a reason in it's own right either (although it maybe a factor) as many teams down here compete with Union and especially Rugby League in these parts and do so very well.

Maybe Scotlands 4m per season is the most that can be hoped for with the population to hand and only a redistribution of that support is possible if the SPL/SFA/SFL get their respective acts together.

One other factor Scotland doesn't have is cities and large towns without football teams to draw from nearby. The Wakefield metropolitan area alone has a population of around 315,000 without a major football team and the Wildcats getting 5-8000. Leeds, Huddersfield and Barnsley all benefit from this.

[LancsHibs]

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My theory is that more than half the teams in the Championship, and in the Leagues below all start this season thinking they will finish top or thereabouts.

Take the Championship, Reading, West Brom, Ncastle, Palace, Cardiff, PNE, Mboro, Sheff Utd, thats 8 teams off top of head who could win it so there fans will be anticapating success. Im sure can do same for Norwich's leauge.

We have 10k STs based on we wont win the SPL maybe a cup but not SPL, is very good. all their fans are going thinking will win there respective League and have valid reason.

I guess same as why our crowds when in Div1 were good, anticipating success.

You tell these teams before season starts you will not finish in top 3 see how many they sell, we buy ours based on the high chance we wont finish higher than 3rd.

If that's the case then why do clubs in the English Premier League such as Everton, Sunderland, Aston Villa, Spurs, Wolves, West Ham etc.. easily get over 20k ST sales when their fans know they have absolutely no chance of winning the league?

English league no different, big 4 in league of 20 compared to big 2 in league of 12! Same scenario with just about every national top league in Europe!

As stated elsewhere don't think the lack of competition at the top end of the top league is the problem with Hibs/Hearts or every other non OF Scottish teams crowds, its the unfortunate fact that we (Hibs and all other clubs) loose potential support to the OF due to glory hunting which is the same as in England, Spain, Germany etc.. but we also have the added pressure of a national inherited sectarian mindset in a large % of the population i.e. I'm a cafflic/prod therefore I support OF 'cos my dad told me to!!!!

[Captain Trips]

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If that's the case then why do clubs in the English Premier League such as Everton, Sunderland, Aston Villa, Spurs, Wolves, West Ham etc.. easily get over 20k ST sales when their fans know they have absolutely no chance of winning the league?

English league no different, big 4 in league of 20 compared to big 2 in league of 12! Same scenario with just about every national top league in Europe!

As stated elsewhere don't think the lack of competition at the top end of the top league is the problem with Hibs/Hearts or every other non OF Scottish teams crowds, its the unfortunate fact that we (Hibs and all other clubs) loose potential support to the OF due to glory hunting which is the same as in England, Spain, Germany etc.. but we also have the added pressure of a national inherited sectarian mindset in a large % of the population i.e. I'm a cafflic/prod therefore I support OF 'cos my dad told me to!!!!

Simple they have really good players that attract the fans and to a point the calibur of the opposition. The point is that the teams I mentioned maybe dont have the great players but they have the chance of winning their respective titles.

[Wakeyhibee]

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If that's the case then why do clubs in the English Premier League such as Everton, Sunderland, Aston Villa, Spurs, Wolves, West Ham etc.. easily get over 20k ST sales when their fans know they have absolutely no chance of winning the league?

Easy,

Watching a vastly superior product, more investment, Better players in team and visiting, more chance of an upset against one of the top sides in the league, more chance of a cup, more chance of a European place at a higher entry level, and at the bottom an exciting fight to stay in the elite

all = greater expectation of success or excitement

even the promoted teams ambition of just staying up is mitigated by a huge parachute payment meaning their future is much more secure and the chance of returning for a second shot even more likely.

compare with the SPL and until recently the bottom team was adrift and sunk at Chistmas, OF 20 points in front by November (Hull were up there last season at that point).

they may not expect to win it but with the available finances can mount a challenge. When you're living off free transfers, youth and cheap foreign gambles/journeymen it's not the same.

[Keith_M]

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Surely EH1690 Postcodes?

[Keith_M]

Just had a quick look at the NCFC website and was very impressed by the fact they've managed to sell 18,000 STs, considering they're in League One.

It would be interesting to see how Hibs and Hearts fared if the Scottish and English leagues were ever combined. I'd imagine Hibs would be at about Norwich's level, moving back and forward between the Championship and League One with maybe the occasional one season visit to the EPL.

IMHO, it's not really worth the possibility that we could lose our national team and the (admittedly rare) chance of occasionally qualifying for europe.

[Andy74]

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Be wary of Edinburgh postcodes.

The whole of West Lothian has Edinburgh postcodes. Rangers supporting areas such as Armadale have EH48 postcodes.

Doesn't this kind of make the whole point!?

The area is closer to Edinburgh than Glasgow and yet it is an establsihed Rangers area. West Lothian in total will have more OF fans than Hibs or Hearts.

The English clubs we are discussing just don't really have those issues.

[Joe Baker II]

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I know for a fact that a number of Embra fee paying schools have played fitba for many years now. They have their own fee paying schools Cup and some but not all enter the local Cup competitions and play against the comprehensives. Fettes College away at Castlebrae will be a culture shock for all concerned if that fixture ever gets drawn out the hat

So tbh Joe I dont think your comments are that relevant to the current situation. What Embras OF fans and Embras rugby fans have in common is that the vast majority of both are basically armchair supports. As others have alluded to you only need to head slightly west to Broxburn or Armadale or slightly east to Port Seton and Prestonpans to see the armchair OF effect in what should be Embra team catchment areas.

I agree with what you are saying (just saw Edinburgh Academy playing fields are now overrun with football pitches last night actually!) but about situation now and had pointed out that Edinburgh crowds actually not that bad now, but point was social consequences from past attitudes in city still do have impactt.

[LancsHibs]

So its the product on offer then that's the reason for the perceived low attendance in comparison to Norwich? Not the OF, lack of competition as some have suggested or Rugby as others have said?
This conclusion asks the question, Is the English div 1 that much better than the SPL, personally I dont think so (having watched a lot of div 1 football), if it is thats a sorry state of affairs our game is in!!!!

[Joe Baker II]

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Also, the number of people who support Hibs and Hearts from outside the lothians is miniscule compared to the number of OF 'fans' inside the lothians, so the former certainly doesn't cancel out the latter.

Are you sure about this, think there are quite a few, as per OF fans here fact they may go to games less still means they do not follow local teams.

[Joe Baker II]

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So its the product on offer then that's the reason for the perceived low attendance in comparison to Norwich? Not the OF, lack of competition as some have suggested or Rugby as others have said?
This conclusion asks the question, Is the English div 1 that much better than the SPL, personally I dont think so (having watched a lot of div 1 football), if it is thats a sorry state of affairs our game is in!!!!

Norwich are hardly typical of 3rd tier (refuse to call it Division 1), plenty of games there get crowds < 6000.

[blackpoolhibs]

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Just had a quick look at the NCFC website and was very impressed by the fact they've managed to sell 18,000 STs, considering they're in League One.

It would be interesting to see how Hibs and Hearts fared if the Scottish and English leagues were ever combined. I'd imagine Hibs would be at about Norwich's level, moving back and forward between the Championship and League One with maybe the occasional one season visit to the EPL.

IMHO, it's not really worth the possibility that we could lose our national team and the (admittedly rare) chance of occasionally qualifying for europe.

Or we could be bigger than the likes of Bolton, Blackburn, Burnley, Wigan, Hull, and Fulham. Give us £40m to spend, and we are just as big, if not bigger than those clubs.

[Bishop Hibee]

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Joe, I was educated at a private school in Edinburgh. I can assure you I was never beaten or punished for either playing football nor for going to Easter Road. Back in the 80s my punishment was watching the games at ER.

At my school football and rugby were both alive and well and co-existed quite happily alongside each other and more boys played football to be honest. Some played both.

Blaming rugby for Hibs & Hearts crowds being poor is missing the picture IMHO. Scotland play at Murrayfield about 6 times a year and you are lucky is half of those games clash with a Hibs home fixture.

Your real problem is Old Firm gloryhunters. Celtic and Rangers each have about 9,000 ST Holders with EH Postcodes. That's your problem, not Rugby.

It's defo the case that some private schools such as Edinburgh Academy promote rugby, cricket and hockey ahead of football. Source - neighbour's son who is a Hibby and went there. In my opinion this is done deliberately to keep their precious offspring away from the oiks.

Also, in my experience, those with a private school education tend to support Hearts. I'd be interested to hear posters views on this.

Agree with comments on OF fans and number of non-Edinburgh born people living in Edinburgh and surrounds being a factor too.

[Keith_M]

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Are you sure about this, think there are quite a few, as per OF fans here fact they may go to games less still means they do not follow local teams.

I'm only going by the places outside the Edinburgh area I've actually lived, and yes, the amount of Hibs & Hearts fans was miniscule compared to the amount of OF fans in Edinburgh and the Lothians. I'd say, going by that, yes I am certain.

[Joe Baker II]

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I take it you've never been to Haymarket on a saturday where there's always a police presence due to the Celtic/Huns fans either getting coaches or trains out west.Surely areas from the lothians like Dalkieth, Musselburgh etc would have a majority of Hibs/Hearts supporters as they are closer to Edinburgh than Glasgow but you'd be surprised at the number of OF fans in these areas.

I have seen it but think your numbers are overstated though I could not claim to know for sure. Have never seen larger than normal police presence even when Hibs/Hearts travelling to Glasgow - remember there are always police on duty at major stain stations but some only go to stations when football on so not sure this is a meaningful indicator.

Not surprised by number of OF fans from areas you refer to but doubt they are anything close to being in majority - Dalkeith was affected by Midlothian mining expansion by migration from West Coast in 1950where impact still felt in football terms. And to lesser extent so were parts of East Lothian though I am from near Musselburgh and do not think it was particularly.

[LancsHibs]

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Norwich are hardly typical of 3rd tier (refuse to call it Division 1), plenty of games there get crowds < 6000.

So do SPL clubs

[Joe Baker II]

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So do SPL clubs

Exactly, but cannot use Norwich's crowds to say Div 3 bigger/better etc any more than say Celtic typical of SPL.

[J-C]

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Easy,

Watching a vastly superior product, more investment, Better players in team and visiting, more chance of an upset against one of the top sides in the league, more chance of a cup, more chance of a European place at a higher entry level, and at the bottom an exciting fight to stay in the elite

all = greater expectation of success or excitement

even the promoted teams ambition of just staying up is mitigated by a huge parachute payment meaning their future is much more secure and the chance of returning for a second shot even more likely.

compare with the SPL and until recently the bottom team was adrift and sunk at Chistmas, OF 20 points in front by November (Hull were up there last season at that point).

they may not expect to win it but with the available finances can mount a challenge. When you're living off free transfers, youth and cheap foreign gambles/journeymen it's not the same.

Just like the Hibs of the 70's a lot of excellent players who entertained, capable of mounting a wee challenge and doing reasonably well in the cups.

[LancsHibs]

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Exactly, but cannot use Norwich's crowds to say Div 3 bigger/better etc any more than say Celtic typical of SPL.

Yes I agree with you, the point I was trying to make which I think has been lost is the reasons both Norwich and Celtic get 'good crowds' are for completely different reasons:

Norwich get good crowds because they are well supported in their local area (Norwich & Norfolk as a whole) this is mostly due to their isolation and lock of competition.
Celtic get big crowds, yes they are from a big city, they attract a huge number of 'glory hunters', people who want to follow a team that wins a lot which you will always get in whatever country your in, but the sectarian element is a huge factor in drawing theirs (and Rangers) support in Scotland.

I disagree to a point that Scottish clubs support (not just Hibs) is not as big as it could/should be in comparison to to some English clubs because of the product on offer. Some folk are too quick sometimes to undermine the Scottish game, which I think is unfair & it compares well to English football IMO.

IF the product on offer is an issue then that again comes down to the OF's domination keeping other clubs back from from fulfilling their potential. Its a vicious circle.
In conclusion, its the OF that are the reason for any lack of competition and low crowds at certain other clubs and the reason why the OP asked why a club like Norwich will end the season with a probable average attendance about 10K more than ours.
OF GTF

[J-C]

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I have seen it but think your numbers are overstated though I could not claim to know for sure. Have never seen larger than normal police presence even when Hibs/Hearts travelling to Glasgow - remember there are always police on duty at major stain stations but some only go to stations when football on so not sure this is a meaningful indicator.

Not surprised by number of OF fans from areas you refer to but doubt they are anything close to being in majority - Dalkeith was affected by Midlothian mining expansion by migration from West Coast in 1950where impact still felt in football terms. And to lesser extent so were parts of East Lothian though I am from near Musselburgh and do not think it was particularly.

Hibs were getting regular crowds of 25,000+ with a high of I think 30,000 in 1952ish. What has happened since then, are the kids not getting involved, well I don't think that's it cause there's plenty youngsters still going to the games. No difference in the catchment areas, still coming from surrounding parts of Edinburgh, so it's probably 2 things that have cased attendances to drop.

1. Team performaces and stability of the club.
2. More glory hunting fans either going to OF games, remember OF crowds have increased and our decreased since the mid 80's.


Apart from the occasional cup run, we haven't even come close to challeging the OF for the league, our performances have been up and down like a whores drawers and this frustrates supporters. Back in the 70's when we had a very decent team we were regularly splitting the OF and crowds were of a decent size. Nowadays the crowds show the expectancy of our team, very little money, regular changing of managers and our best players being sold to make ends meet and keep us out of debt. Youngsters grow up seeing the OF on tv every other game and regularly in Europe and want to support a winning team, so allegiance is switched and another supporter is lost.

[Wakeyhibee]

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Hibs were getting regular crowds of 25,000+ with a high of I think 30,000 in 1952ish. What has happened since then, are the kids not getting involved, well I don't think that's it cause there's plenty youngsters still going to the games. No difference in the catchment areas, still coming from surrounding parts of Edinburgh, so it's probably 2 things that have cased attendances to drop.

1. Team performaces and stability of the club.
2. More glory hunting fans either going to OF games, remember OF crowds have increased and our decreased since the mid 80's.

All attendances plummeted in the early 60's after the post war boom. The big games still drew 30-40k but run of the mill games were poor less than todays. It picked up again in the early 70's before dipping to new lows after our stint in Div1 when the East Terrace was closed for a season IIRC.

Our attendances now are up on the 80's, there were some big gates back then but many more at 4-6000.

Here you go up to 2004

52/53 29800
53/54 22020
54/55 22825
55/56 20224
56/57 18176
57/58 20206
58/59 14618
59/60 16559
60/61 15471
61/62 9763
62/63 9063
63/64 11972
64/65 13826
65/66 11664
66/67 12321
67/68 11475
68/69 10835
69/70 13128
70/71 10541
71/72 14057
72/73 16100
73/74 14339
74/75 13721
75/76 13797
76/77 10003
77/78 9647
78/79 9794
79/80 9564
80/81 4460
81/82 7445
82/83 7109
83/84 8334
84/85 7425
85/86 9135
86/87 9154
87/88 11590
88/89 13896
89/90 10705
90/91 9257
91/92 9841
92/93 8791
93/94 9718
94/95 8782
95/96 9842
96/97 10480
97/98 12029
98/99 10220
99/00 12070
00/01 10793
01/02 11588
02/03 10157
03/04 9127

[LancsHibs]

Interesting WH, what about the last 5 seasons? Where did you get these stats from?

[wazoo1875]

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Interesting WH, what about the last 5 seasons? Where did you get these stats from?

Try this site mate http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

[7Hero]

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...which is based in a city considerably smaller than Edinburgh and is now being embarrassed in what is effectively England's Third Division can still attract 25K to home games when both Hibs and Hearts don't even have grounds big enough to hold 20K these days?

1 reason = the old firm.

we will never maximise potetnial as the majority glory hunt..