The Trans Rights Debate

[Hibspur]

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Today?

6 months ago maybe, but there's other, more important things to worry about.

The Supreme Court ruling was only in April. It will be a significant news issue for many months to come as its repercussions are addressed.

I think it's easy for men to shrug this off as being irrelevant to them, but for the women who fought so long and hard for common sense to prevail it's been far from an unimportant issue. Crazy that that they had to go all the way to the Supreme Court to defeat the Scottish government on this.

[Hibspur]

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What I don't understand is how things like this seem to exercise the minds of straight people when it doesn't affect them.

There are endless contemporary issues around the globe which may only directly 'affect' certain people, but that doesn't mean the rest can't take an interest in them.

I think a lot of people's eyes have been opened to the absurdities around this issue since Nicola Sturgeon brought gender self-ID front and centre (thankfully to the massive detriment of her career). The way seemingly rational people have been captivated (or, more accurately, become too cautious to speak out) by this ideology has been extraordinary to witness. Sturgeon herself was so beholden to this nonsense that she invented a third sex...men, women and rapists.

It's a relief to see common sense prevail.

[Moulin Yarns]

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There are endless contemporary issues around the globe which may only directly 'affect' certain people, but that doesn't mean the rest can't take an interest in them.

I think a lot of people's eyes have been opened to the absurdities around this issue since Nicola Sturgeon brought gender self-ID front and centre (thankfully to the massive detriment of her career). The way seemingly rational people have been captivated (or, more accurately, become too cautious to speak out) by this ideology has been extraordinary to witness. Sturgeon herself was so beholden to this nonsense that she invented a third sex...men, women and rapists.

It's a relief to see common sense prevail.

Wow!!

This being posted in pride month!!!

No thought for the minorities who have fought for their rights which have been removed by the court.

[jamie_1875]

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Wow!!

This being posted in pride month!!!

No thought for the minorities who have fought for their rights which have been removed by the court.

What legal rights were removed? The court clarified the existing law that's all.

[He's here!]

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I'm not going to get involved in what I think is an incredibly polarised debate with no real world 'suits everyone' solutions. Bit I world encourage you to do a bit of reading about chromosomes.

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Out if interest, what further reading would you say is required to know that your chromosomes are what help to determine the scientific certainty of your sex? That's my take on what I learned in biology ie you can change your physical appearance as much as you want but you can't change your sex. That's embedded in genes in every cell in your body.

FWIW when it comes to gay trans people my guess would be that trans women partner with fellow trans women and trans men partner with trans men ie they remain homosexuals and lesbians but have adopted a different gender. A trans woman partnering with a biological woman would not be a gay relationship.

The more concerning aspect of that issue is that many supposedly trans kids turn out simply to be gay but until recently were routinely prescribed puberty blockers.

[blackpoolhibs]

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Why do you think it's/was front page news on every newspaper, and the first item on every news channel?

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Because it was big news, and still is.

Although that was April, should people forget about it now?

[Kato]

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Out if interest, what further reading would you say is required to know that your chromosomes are what help to determine the scientific certainty of your sex? That's my take on what I learned in biology ie you can change your physical appearance as much as you want but you can't change your sex. That's embedded in genes in every cell in your body.

FWIW when it comes to gay trans people my guess would be that trans women partner with fellow trans women and trans men partner with trans men ie they remain homosexuals and lesbians but have adopted a different gender. A trans woman partnering with a biological woman would not be a gay relationship.

The more concerning aspect of that issue is that many supposedly trans kids turn out simply to be gay but until recently were routinely prescribed puberty blockers.

In 2024 about 600 children were prescribed puberty blockers. As they are used as a cancer treatment it may have been prescribed for that, although the figures aren't available. There are other stats which say it was less than 100.

There is no "routinely" about it and language like that is irresponsible, which is what led to this subject being such a hot tattie.

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[Kato]

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Because it was big news, and still is.

Although that was April, should people forget about it now?

I think it's "big news" as it became a polarising subject on social media, which fermented and simmered away for a few years before the MSM gave it oxygen. Polarising subjects on social media attracts politicians and people who seek to divide people and those who just want to argue for the sake of it. That's those on the left and right.

Clicks = bucks.

If it were dealt with in a sober, non-political social issue no one on here would be in the slightest bit interested.

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[JimBHibees]

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There are endless contemporary issues around the globe which may only directly 'affect' certain people, but that doesn't mean the rest can't take an interest in them.

I think a lot of people's eyes have been opened to the absurdities around this issue since Nicola Sturgeon brought gender self-ID front and centre (thankfully to the massive detriment of her career). The way seemingly rational people have been captivated (or, more accurately, become too cautious to speak out) by this ideology has been extraordinary to witness. Sturgeon herself was so beholden to this nonsense that she invented a third sex...men, women and rapists.

It's a relief to see common sense prevail.

Massive detriment of her career. The trans bill was voted through by members of all parties at Scottish parliament. The never ending court case has been the main detriment of her career.

[blackpoolhibs]

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I think it's "big news" as it became a polarising subject on social media, which fermented and simmered away for a few years before the MSM gave it oxygen. Polarising subjects on social media attracts politicians and people who seek to divide people and those who just want to argue for the sake of it. That's those on the left and right.

Clicks = bucks.

If it were dealt with in a sober, non-political social issue no one on here would be in the slightest bit interested.

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So you agree it is big news, no matter how it made it to the front pages?

[Hiber-nation]

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So you agree it is big news, no matter how it made it to the front pages?

The media have made it into big news because of the strength of feeling a minority of people have on the subject. It stirs up hate which is what the media wants. I don't know anyone who gives a monkey's about it.

[Moulin Yarns]

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What legal rights were removed? The court clarified the existing law that's all.

Sorry for the delay but I've been working all day.

OK, the Supreme Court ruling clarified one thing regarding sex but removed protection from transgender people by forcing them use facilities that they are uncomfortable using. Transgender men are expected to revert to using ladies toilets where they will be challenged and transgender women are expected to revert to using gents toilets where they are could find themselves in conflict with men.

If not then I would like to know how transgender people can get their hard fought rights back to living a normal life without persecution.

[jamie_1875]

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Sorry for the delay but I've been working all day.

OK, the Supreme Court ruling clarified one thing regarding sex but removed protection from transgender people by forcing them use facilities that they are uncomfortable using. Transgender men are expected to revert to using ladies toilets where they will be challenged and transgender women are expected to revert to using gents toilets where they are could find themselves in conflict with men.

If not then I would like to know how transgender people can get their hard fought rights back to living a normal life without persecution.

So if the woman also finds it uncomfortable changing next to a fully intact man, as in the case of the nurse you called a transphobe, then them feeling uncomfortable changing next to a man isn't as important?

Are you suggesting we need to make sure the man is more comfortable in the woman's changing room than the actual woman? The woman who feels uncomfortable is less important than the man's feelings?

A bit misogynist I would suggest? The woman just needs to get on with it as the feelings of the man are more important than her feelings of being uncomfortable?

[Moulin Yarns]

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So if the woman finds it uncomfortable changing next to a fully intact man, as in the case of the nurse you called a transphobe, then them feeling uncomfortable changing next to a man isn't as important?

Are you suggesting we need to make sure the man is more comfortable in the woman's changing room than the actual woman? The woman who feels uncomfortable is less important than the man's feelings?

A bit misogynist I would suggest? The woman just needs to get on with it as the feelings of the man are more important than her feelings of being uncomfortable?

You are referring to transgender women as men which is exactly the persecution I referring to!!!

[jamie_1875]

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You are referring to transgender women as men which is exactly the persecution I referring to!!!

You never answered the question or addressed the point. If the biological woman feels uncomfortable changing next to a fully intact male with a *****, as Dr Upton was, what should she do?

Her feelings of being uncomfortable aren't important? That's what you are saying? Even although she is the woman in the woman's changing room...

[Hibspur]

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You are referring to transgender women as men which is exactly the persecution I referring to!!!

The Supreme Court made clear that the legal definition of a woman is based on biological sex, as has always been the case under the Equality Act.

Under the terms of the same act, trans women retain every legal protection from discrimination that they have always enjoyed. Nothing has been taken away.

[Hibspur]

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I think it's "big news" as it became a polarising subject on social media, which fermented and simmered away for a few years before the MSM gave it oxygen. Polarising subjects on social media attracts politicians and people who seek to divide people and those who just want to argue for the sake of it. That's those on the left and right.

Clicks = bucks.

If it were dealt with in a sober, non-political social issue no one on here would be in the slightest bit interested.

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It's about a great deal more than a spat on social media. Women were losing their jobs for questioning the creep of biological men into protected spaces or daring to even imply (correctly) that transwomen are not women - and had those who went on to establish For Women Scotland not taken a closer look at the Gender Recognition Reform Bill than many MSPs clearly did, we'd now be living with all the absurdities of what self-id would have entailed. Credit is also due to the likes of Joanna Cherry, Rosie Duffield and JK Rowling for bringing their very public influence to bear.

One of the few sound moves the previous UK government made was to veto the bill. Since the Supreme Court brought some long overdue common sense to this saga, we've seen the cringeworthy row-back by Scottish Labour ('if we knew then what we know now'...WTF?!) and a hastiness from the present day SNP leadership to sweep Sturgeon's folly under the carpet. It's as though these people (and many others) have emerged from under a spell that prevented them being able to define what a woman is.

As I said, easy to claim this is a non-story because it doesn't impact on you, but for women it's as newsworthy an issue as any.

[McSwanky]

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Out if interest, what further reading would you say is required to know that your chromosomes are what help to determine the scientific certainty of your sex? That's my take on what I learned in biology ie you can change your physical appearance as much as you want but you can't change your sex. That's embedded in genes in every cell in your body.

I said I'm not going to get involved in the debate, and I stand by that. But I'm pretty certain I've had a conversation with you before, and IIRC you were able to use Google quite proficiently. I'm sure you can give it a go this time too.

Everyone likes issues to be black and white so they can form an opinion easily. For me, this one needs a bit more critical thinking.

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[J-C]

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You are referring to transgender women as men which is exactly the persecution I referring to!!!

If they have a ***** then she/he is still a man, until the full operation then they should be using either male or an individual toilet/changing room, these facilities aren't there yet in many places.

Ricky Gervais tells a joke about this that sums up the situation. He talks about the new women we have, not the old fashioned ones with vaginas but the new ones with the beards and penises, he calls them his and in the joke he's told you cannot call them he/him/his anymore, so he apologises and and says her ***** and beard.


Why has it blanked out p e n i s ?? that not a bad word, it's the correct term.

[Hibrandenburg]

Why can't we just have unisex accessible facilities and move on with our lives?

[jamie_1875]

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Why can't we just have unisex accessible facilities and move on with our lives?

How would a unisex changing room at a place of work look? Men and woman all getting undressed next to each other?

[JimBHibees]

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How would a unisex changing room at a place of work look? Men and woman all getting undressed next to each other?

Assuming individual cubicles

[Pretty Boy]

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Assuming individual cubicles

The obvious solution and has worked in somewhere like the Commie pool for years, possibly decades now.

I suppose there are still issues. A lot of places aren't set up in such a way currently and there are costs involved in converting. A lot of the support for these shared spaces, anecdotally at least, seems to be from men (cis men for clarity). I think we forget our privilege when it comes to such things. We are the physically dominant person in those scenarios in such cases and when you look at the statistics around women who have been subject to sexual abuse or even 'just' unwanted advances then you can see why they may be more wary of sharing changing spaces with men. I posted some time ago about my experience in such a space. It was no real problem for me as such but the discomfort of the others in the room made me uncomfortable. There is a degree of arrogance to say 'well it doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother anyone so just get on with it'. Anyone who has ever played football or been to the gym knows there are guys who love to peacock about as well. Strolling about with their cock flapping about, leg up oh the seat whilst they dry their arse etc etc. Are we trusting them to modify their behaviour if there are women and kids present?

I found the nurse at the centre of that NHS tribunal objectionable in about every way possible. She seemed rude, deliberately misgendering the doctor in court was just spiteful imo and the rest of her politics were abhorrent (to me). In that instance I think she was right though. For me that comes back to the nuances of the whole debate and people looking beyond their own situation. I sympathise with both sides. I've never had any conflict about my sex so I don't feel in a position to say 'just use the changing room for your biological sex'. I don't understand the issues that can cause someone mentally. Equally I'm not a woman (or a man uncomfortable with such things) so just saying 'all changing rooms are now unisex so get on with it' isn't really on either.

I'm genuinely stumped as to how you please everyone here.

[jamie_1875]

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Assuming individual cubicles

As eluded to in post above that has it's own issues and I think in places like a hospital it wouldn't be practical to build individual lockable cubicles when there are hundreds of people changing and showering a day I suspect. That's why we have single sex woman's and mens changing rooms as the norm.

I am also uncomfortable with men basically telling women how they should behave and feel, it's basically a "pipe down love, just get on with it, what's the problem" attitude and we would never dream of doing that about anything else.

[danhibees1875]

As said above, not sure there's a solution that pleases everyone. Private unisex cubicles seem the closest though.

How about when that's not practical and you only have the traditionally built 2 communal areas then you have a dedicated sis-female space, and a unisex space.

Edit: in reality, this isn't really any different to the "biological sex" answer, but it does take away the labelling and forcing a trans-woman to use the mens space as they would just be using the unreserved unisex space.

[Colr]

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Massive detriment of her career. The trans bill was voted through by members of all parties at Scottish parliament. The never ending court case has been the main detriment of her career.

The media down here doesn’t cover it, but my take is that the SNP’s focus on this issue above all others during a cost of living crisis has seriously damaged their credibility way more than the stitch up about finances.

This is not an issue families are discussing over the breakfast table. Paying their bills is.

It gave the very strong impression that they were in the thrall to a small number of vocal activists and out of touch with ordinary people. Its a peril for those who have been in politics and power for a long time.

[Colr]

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Assuming individual cubicles

I’ve never been in a communal changing room in a clothes shop. Maybe because men don’t need to try clothes on as much as women do but, really, why do women have to put up with communal changing rooms in clothes stores? It’s archaic

[Smartie]

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The media down here doesn’t cover it, but my take is that the SNP’s focus on this issue above all others during a cost of living crisis has seriously damaged their credibility way more than the stitch up about finances.

This is not an issue families are discussing over the breakfast table. Paying their bills is.

It gave the very strong impression that they were in the thrall to a small number of vocal activists and out of touch with ordinary people. Its a peril for those who have been in politics and power for a long time.

I agree.

Only think I’d maybe add is that it’s an issue which has been cleverly weaponised by all sorts of right-leaning institutions as they know that their opponents are likely to tie themselves in knots over it.

[Hibrandenburg]

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As eluded to in post above that has it's own issues and I think in places like a hospital it wouldn't be practical to build individual lockable cubicles when there are hundreds of people changing and showering a day I suspect. That's why we have single sex woman's and mens changing rooms as the norm.

I am also uncomfortable with men basically telling women how they should behave and feel, it's basically a "pipe down love, just get on with it, what's the problem" attitude and we would never dream of doing that about anything else.

I get why people worry about unisex facilities in places like hospitals, but there are ways to make them work without completely rebuilding everything. Many places have set up private stalls, separate sections, or designated areas that give everyone the privacy they need. There just hast to be a willingness to make things work and that is completely absent from some hard-line haters.

And about men telling women how they should feel—I completely agree that no one should dismiss women's concerns. But this isn’t about one group overruling another. It’s about making sure everyone, including trans people, has a safe and respectful space. Thoughtful solutions can make facilities work for everyone without ignoring real worries.

[jamie_1875]

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I get why people worry about unisex facilities in places like hospitals, but there are ways to make them work without completely rebuilding everything. Many places have set up private stalls, separate sections, or designated areas that give everyone the privacy they need. There just hast to be a willingness to make things work and that is completely absent from some hard-line haters.

And about men telling women how they should feel—I completely agree that no one should dismiss women's concerns. But this isn’t about one group overruling another. It’s about making sure everyone, including trans people, has a safe and respectful space. Thoughtful solutions can make facilities work for everyone without ignoring real worries.

Aren't you describing separate women's and mens space's above, which is exactly what separate changing rooms are?

What would you say to a woman nurse who doesn't want to get changed next to a fully intact male?