The Trans Rights Debate

[Pretty Boy]

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Why does pool even need a men’s and a woman’s tournament? Same for darts, chess, bowls, etc. Literally no advantage being a man.

J

You don't think men can generate significantly more power on the cue ball in a sport like pool when compared to women?

[500miles]

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You don't think men can generate significantly more power on the cue ball in a sport like pool when compared to women?

Probably not in a useful way.

Separate women's leagues is probably useful in order to encourage participation by promoting a smaller pool of players who would otherwise get lost in the much larger pool of male players.

[Ozyhibby]

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You don't think men can generate significantly more power on the cue ball in a sport like pool when compared to women?

Isn’t height an advantage in snooker and pool?


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[Pretty Boy]

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Isn’t height an advantage in snooker and pool?


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I genuinely don't know.

I read an article with Deta Hedman and Lisa Ashton last week and they were very sympathetic to trans women but still stated their opposition to them playing in women's darts tournament. They argued that darts is still a physical sport in which musculoskeletal differences, perhaps those which are negligible in every day life, have a bearing. Maybe it's me that is coming at it from the wrong angle and maybe they are just trying to protect their own positions but I would argue they should be listened to over anyone with no direct involvement in the sport at a professional level stating it makes no difference.

Across a range of sports the data shows that up to the onset of puberty there is very little difference in performance levels between males and females, in sports like running it's absolutely minimal to non existent. At around that 11-14 age the disparity in performance grows massively. Women have to deal with a whole range of issues men don't; huge hormonal imbalances throughout the month, time spent unable to train at maximum performance because of their period etc etc all whilst men get elevated levels of testosterone which among other things fuels muscle and skeletal growth. Even in sports where that required physicality is smaller, say darts as opposed to boxing, it's still not really for me, you or any other men to decide whether it makes any difference or not.

That shouldn't be read as any kind of transphobic comment. There really isn't a simple answer but simply disregarding women's views on the perceived biological reality of the situation seems close to the worst way to deal with it.

[lapsedhibee]

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Responding to my own post!

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/...20hate%20crime.

Banned by the UK government!!

Eh, naw: separate unisex (or universal) toilets should be provided if there is space, but should not come at the expense of female toilets

What they've actually banned is doing away with female toilets.

Thought for a moment there that architects had gone all Common Sensey.

[lapsedhibee]

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When Diana left the Supremes, she got high.

Stress of only sharing top billing with the Prime Minister's wife.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Eh, naw: separate unisex (or universal) toilets should be provided if there is space, but should not come at the expense of female toilets

What they've actually banned is doing away with female toilets.

Thought for a moment there that architects had gone all Common Sensey.

Throwing this question out on toilets.

If a "Trans-man" (born female, but reassigned through surgery) walked into a women's toilet..... perhaps to make a political point, to test the law, or just to be **** y....... would he be breaking any law?

I'm thinking maybe breach of the peace, if women in there are alarmed by his being there. If he isn't getting his cock out in view of the women there, though, he can't be done for indecent exposure.

However, as the law stands, isn't he using the correct facilities?

Or is that one of the anomalies that will get ironed out by case-law so that common sense prevails?

[speedy_gonzales]

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Throwing this question out on toilets.

If a "Trans-man" (born female, but reassigned through surgery) walked into a women's toilet..... perhaps to make a political point, to test the law, or just to be *****....... would he be breaking any law?

I'm thinking maybe breach of the peace, if women in there are alarmed by his being there. If he isn't getting his cock out in view of the women there, though, he can't be done for indecent exposure.

However, as the law stands, isn't he using the correct facilities?

Or is that one of the anomalies that will get ironed out by case-law so that common sense prevails?

It's a point I've raised elsewhere as the only two trans people I know and am social with are both trans men.

I could be way off the mark here, but this whole conversation seems to be driven by women against trans-women in single sex spaces or where gender critical care is delivered.
I've not seen or heard any argument from cis men re trans-men in their single sex spaces.

Edited to add (as I have said in the past) the issue doesn't directly affect me (being male) but both my wife and 21yr old daughter agree that this conversation seems to have got weaponised fairly early on and it's far from being over.
What's the percentage of trans folk out there compared to the wider population. What's the percentage of trans folk that have had the reconstructive surgery that would make it nigh on impossible to tell one way or the other without a DNA test?
As someone said earlier, the biggest risk to women just now is still men, and statistically men they know rather than don't know.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Throwing this question out on toilets.

If a "Trans-man" (born female, but reassigned through surgery) walked into a women's toilet..... perhaps to make a political point, to test the law, or just to be **** y....... would he be breaking any law?

I'm thinking maybe breach of the peace, if women in there are alarmed by his being there. If he isn't getting his cock out in view of the women there, though, he can't be done for indecent exposure.

However, as the law stands, isn't he using the correct facilities?

Or is that one of the anomalies that will get ironed out by case-law so that common sense prevails?

A good point, assuming the trans man has gone under full gender reassignment surgery. The trans man I know has only undergone top surgery and hormone treatment.

Similarly a trans woman walking into the gents toilet while men are at urinals. What would be the reaction?

[Ozyhibby]

If this wasn’t about hate on trans people then I’m sure all those against will now be campaigning to make sure adequate facilities are made available for all people?


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[Moulin Yarns]

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Eh, naw: separate unisex (or universal) toilets should be provided if there is space, but should not come at the expense of female toilets

What they've actually banned is doing away with female toilets.

Thought for a moment there that architects had gone all Common Sensey.

QUOTE

But organisations including feminist architecture and design collective Edit and grassroots group Architecture LGBT+ have hit back at the plans, describing them as a 'backwards step'. Edit called the move 'a distraction tactic by our government to fuel the culture war and transphobia'.

And Architecture LGBT+ said: 'Gender neutral spaces allow transgender and non-binary people, some of the most marginalised in society, the freedom to use facilities with dignity, without having to gender themselves

The changes will require the provision of separate single-sex toilet facilities for men and women and/or self-contained, private toilets. Mixed-sex shared facilities will be banned except when lack of space allows only a single toilet.

[Jim Herriot]

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If this wasn’t about hate on trans people then I’m sure all those against will now be campaigning to make sure adequate facilities are made available for all people?

Well said. Every individual should have the right to suitable toilet facilities, regardless of sex, gender, or identity.

Also, separate pool tournaments for the left-handed. Sinister b^stards.

[Ozyhibby]

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Well said. Every individual should have the right to suitable toilet facilities, regardless of sex, gender, or identity.

Also, separate pool tournaments for the left-handed. Sinister b^stards.

It’s a disaster for small business now having to provide more toilets. I expect the ladies and gents will get smaller and a third gender neutral one will have to be built.


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[wookie70]

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It’s a disaster for small business now having to provide more toilets. I expect the ladies and gents will get smaller and a third gender neutral one will have to be built.


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Just have two toilets without any urinals.

[The Tubs]

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Just have two toilets without any urinals.

This would only make sense if we started using composting toilets everywhere. Think of all the extra water needed for a Jimmy Riddle.
We'd have longer queues too.

[speedy_gonzales]

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It’s a disaster for small business now having to provide more toilets. I expect the ladies and gents will get smaller and a third gender neutral one will have to be built.


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It's maybe a British thing, but in Europe, many small hospitality businesses just have "a toilet". There's usually one lockable door then beyond that there's a sink, a urinal, a toilet and if you're lucky a baby changing area.
It appears to work.
For some reason we seem to get excited about how we toilet.
A good example was when when Bar 38 opened on George St in the early 2000's, the biggest talking point was the communal toilets and there was many an angry letter written about it in the Evening News. Turns out the only thing communal about them was the wash hand basin! Guys and gals still had their separate cubicles

[The Tubs]

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It's maybe a British thing, but in Europe, many small hospitality businesses just have "a toilet". There's usually one lockable door then beyond that there's a sink, a urinal, a toilet and if you're lucky a baby changing area.
It appears to work.
For some reason we seem to get excited about how we toilet.
A good example was when when Bar 38 opened on George St in the early 2000's, the biggest talking point was the communal toilets and there was many an angry letter written about it in the Evening News. Turns out the only thing communal about them was the wash hand basin! Guys and gals still had their separate cubicles

Despite having spent the vast majority of my adult life outside Anglo-Saxon/British origin culture, its approach to lavvies is far superior to most descended from continental Europe, especially when the temperature starts rising.

[lapsedhibee]

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QUOTE

But organisations including feminist architecture and design collective Edit and grassroots group Architecture LGBT+ have hit back at the plans, describing them as a 'backwards step'. Edit called the move 'a distraction tactic by our government to fuel the culture war and transphobia'.

And Architecture LGBT+ said: 'Gender neutral spaces allow transgender and non-binary people, some of the most marginalised in society, the freedom to use facilities with dignity, without having to gender themselves

The changes will require the provision of separate single-sex toilet facilities for men and women and/or self-contained, private toilets. Mixed-sex shared facilities will be banned except when lack of space allows only a single toilet.

Ah right, it's the common washhand basin area the last government was going after, rather than the unisex toilet itself, yes? Does seem a bit culture-warry, not like them at all.

[Stairway 2 7]

The reason trans men going into male toilets isn't an issue is biology. 99.9% of sexual assaults are committed by biological males. As males we have bear the burden for that, guilty or not and be kept away from single sex biological spaces. There is no threat increase to males with trans males being in their spaces.

I think most people would want as many rights as possible for trans females but not when it takes away a women's right, ie safe spaces. Protection against discrimination won't change.

[Kato]

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Lots of talk of common sense here and elsewhere. The only logical solution to the problem of women only spaces has to be gender neutral spaces such as toilets. These already exist and needs to become the norm.

My social media is full of support for the trans community today after yesterday's ruling.

There's still a greater threat to women from men than transgender women.

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There's still a greater threat to women from men than transgender women.

That's not up for discussion in the mainstream media though. Editors and those with powerful voices on social media do not care to make as much noise about this, as they do about trans people.

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[Ozyhibby]

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The reason trans men going into male toilets isn't an issue is biology. 99.9% of sexual assaults are committed by biological males. As males we have bear the burden for that, guilty or not and be kept away from single sex biological spaces. There is no threat increase to males with trans males being in their spaces.

I think most people would want as many rights as possible for trans females but not when it takes away a women's right, ie safe spaces. Protection against discrimination won't change.

So we’ll need to build more toilets and changing rooms.


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[Stairway 2 7]

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So we’ll need to build more toilets and changing rooms.


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Not by law now, so I doubt most will, perhaps big companies like banks and NHS but boozers who are toiling won't

[Ozyhibby]

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Not by law now, so I doubt most will, perhaps big companies like banks and NHS but boozers who are toiling won't

Doesn’t the equalities act demand it?


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[Stairway 2 7]

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Doesn’t the equalities act demand it?


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No. The supreme court has stipulated companies should determine spaces by biology. It also says it should have always been the case so I can see a number of court cases for unfair dismissal.

The supreme court takes priority over ECHR so it's likely parliament will make an amendment from what I'm reading

[lapsedhibee]

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What's the percentage of trans folk out there compared to the wider population.

Government Equalities Office says this:

How many trans people are there?
We don’t know. No robust data on the UK trans
population exists. We tentatively estimate that there are
approximately 200,000-500,000 trans people in the UK.
The Office for National Statistics is researching whether
and how to develop a population estimate.

So less than 1%, but maybe not that much less.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Doesn’t the equalities act demand it?


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The whole case was pretty much also to determine what the equalities act means by sex. Scot gov said it was chosen gender the court said this was to exhibit “incoherence and absurdity”. The court said the equalities act should only refer to biological sex and it should be protected in places where females change, have sanitary provisions and living in the same premises or there is physical contact.

It's hilarious that Sarwar is saying he always said there should be female only spaces, the same Sarwar that whipped the GRA vote and demoted two front benchers that were against. Hopefully it costs him his jotters

[147lothian]

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Why does pool even need a men’s and a woman’s tournament? Same for darts, chess, bowls, etc. Literally no advantage being a man.

J

This is what the end game of trans ideology looks; an all male final of a woman's pool championship. The woman's pool event wouldn't ordinarily have grabbed the headlines, for one curious detail: this year, there were no women in the final. It was played between two men.

Men do still have some biological advantages. These differences - though hotly disputed by delusional trans activists - are obvious to anyone with eyes, men have longer reach, are usually taller making it easier for men to make shots with greater power and speed.

[Keith_M]

Was there a reason that Cherry kept mentioning that this as a victory for "women and lesbians"? She used the phrase at least five times in her Daily Record interview.


Was there something in the Supreme Court decision that mentioned Gay/Lesbian rights?

[Stairway 2 7]

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Was there a reason that Cherry kept mentioning that this as a victory for "women and lesbians"? She used the phrase at least five times in her Daily Record interview.


Was there something in the Supreme Court decision that mentioned Gay/Lesbian rights?

It effects them as before many lesbian clubs and support groups for example were forced to include trans females they now don't. Some trans activists went as far as saying lesbians who wouldn't be a partner of a trans female were bigoted

[147lothian]

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Was there a reason that Cherry kept mentioning that this as a victory for "women and lesbians"? She used the phrase at least five times in her Daily Record interview.


Was there something in the Supreme Court decision that mentioned Gay/Lesbian rights?

Maybe its because men who identify as women keep trying to join the lesbian dating pool, and they keep calling women who are attracted to women ie lesbians transphobes and cultural racists for not wanting anything to do with these deluded men.