The Trans Rights Debate

[Keith_M]

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I take it you were never in Berghain whilst in Berlin.

Niemals!


I leave that sort of thing to my bother in law, Tommy the Commy

[500miles]

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Their concern is likely the nonsensical idea that kids will decide to become trans off the back of these teachings, much like your example where people were concerned kids were going to be taught to be gay. I remember as part of sex education we had a man who was HIV+ come in to give us a talk on HIV. It didn’t make me want to be HIV+, much like sex education didn’t make me want to be gay or trans.

I need to challenge that a bit. The concern is teaching kids that it is possible to change sex and that there is an innate gender identity in everyone, unrelated to thier biological sex.

There is no evidence for that, and if that is to be taught in any classroom, it should be RE, because it's purely philosophical. When we start treating it as scientific fact, then there's a risk you can end up medicalising gender non conforming kids. In that respect it can be as much about how adults respond to the kids as it is the kids themselves.

[Bishop Hibee]

Personally, I don’t believe anybody is ‘born in the wrong body’ and I believe sex is observed at birth not assigned. I’ve nothing against folk being androgynous. My mates daughter identifies as non- binary and changed her name to a gender neutral one. Chatted away to her at ER last week. I just don’t believe anybody man becomes a woman by declaring it or visa-versa.

[Colr]

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I need to challenge that a bit. The concern is teaching kids that it is possible to change sex and that there is an innate gender identity in everyone, unrelated to thier biological sex.

There is no evidence for that, and if that is to be taught in any classroom, it should be RE, because it's purely philosophical. When we start treating it as scientific fact, then there's a risk you can end up medicalising gender non conforming kids. In that respect it can be as much about how adults respond to the kids as it is the kids themselves.

If only RE could be changed to Philosophy.

[Ozyhibby]

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If only RE could be changed to Philosophy.

It is I think.
Pretty sure it’s called RMPS these days. Religious, Moral and Philosophical studies. My eldest did it through to higher.


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[Colr]

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It is I think.
Pretty sure it’s called RMPS these days. Religious, Moral and Philosophical studies. My eldest did it through to higher.


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In England, Gove rode back the philosophy part in favour of religion. At primary level its ALL religion - shouldn’t be

[wookie70]

I find this subject really difficult. It doesn't bother me what anyone calls themselves in terms of gender and I hope I would treat everyone equally assuming what they are doing is not harming anyone else. I do have women friends who are concerned about genetic men playing contact sport such as Rugby against their daughters but on the flip side I know Scottish International Women Rugby players who are hugely supportive of the other side of the argument. The simple truth is I don't know enough to really hold a strong opinion in terms of the topic and it doesn't really impact me in any way and is way down my list of things the world needs to deal with.

I do hold a strong opinion in term of the bandwidth and influence the topic is having. For example, I attend a trade union conference every year. Last year the conference, which is supposed to represent 200K members in a members led union, talked more about Trans issues than it did about pay and conditions. I have no issue that these topics are debated but they have simply taken over the left and trade unionism and as we all fight about Trans issues v Women's rights the employers sit back and watch. I think the same could be argued for the more progressive political parties who have been derailed by this issue and the far right have accepted the opportunity with open arms. There are so many problems in society that effect the vast majority of us and I would far rather stand shoulder to shoulder with all types of working people facing these universal issues which if solved may well remove much of the hate and intolerance that trans people are facing.

[Bristolhibby]

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I find this subject really difficult. It doesn't bother me what anyone calls themselves in terms of gender and I hope I would treat everyone equally assuming what they are doing is not harming anyone else. I do have women friends who are concerned about genetic men playing contact sport such as Rugby against their daughters but on the flip side I know Scottish International Women Rugby players who are hugely supportive of the other side of the argument. The simple truth is I don't know enough to really hold a strong opinion in terms of the topic and it doesn't really impact me in any way and is way down my list of things the world needs to deal with.

I do hold a strong opinion in term of the bandwidth and influence the topic is having. For example, I attend a trade union conference every year. Last year the conference, which is supposed to represent 200K members in a members led union, talked more about Trans issues than it did about pay and conditions. I have no issue that these topics are debated but they have simply taken over the left and trade unionism and as we all fight about Trans issues v Women's rights the employers sit back and watch. I think the same could be argued for the more progressive political parties who have been derailed by this issue and the far right have accepted the opportunity with open arms. There are so many problems in society that effect the vast majority of us and I would far rather stand shoulder to shoulder with all types of working people facing these universal issues which if solved may well remove much of the hate and intolerance that trans people are facing.

Quite. It all adds up to the “Let the Left eat itself” that the right are inherently designed not to do.

Even if you break it down to pure extreme right (one leader, one party) vs extreme Left, many people represented by many bodies and sub committees, all equal, all rise ring of a voice.

I often hark back to the Spanish Civil war. The Nationalists could gather round Franco, one supreme leader restoring the aristocracy and church. The left meanwhile was split into Communists (backed by Russia), Anarchists, Syndicasts, Socialists, democrats, anti Monarchy, anti Church, land reformers, atheists.

In the end they were not united enough and vying for power amongst themselves. The Right won, and stayed in power until the 1970s.

The SNP and Independence movement in general needs to been the same way. Unite round one message. The time for squabbling comes post independence. Then everyone can have a democratic go at government.

But for now, Trans Issues for example seem to be something that progressive / left leaning parties and governments tie themselves in knots while the opposition / conservatives sit back and rub their hands. It’s almost an unsolvable riddle. That I agree, takes up too much air time and plays into the hands of the right.

J

[Kato]

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I find this subject really difficult. It doesn't bother me what anyone calls themselves in terms of gender and I hope I would treat everyone equally assuming what they are doing is not harming anyone else. I do have women friends who are concerned about genetic men playing contact sport such as Rugby against their daughters but on the flip side I know Scottish International Women Rugby players who are hugely supportive of the other side of the argument. The simple truth is I don't know enough to really hold a strong opinion in terms of the topic and it doesn't really impact me in any way and is way down my list of things the world needs to deal with.

I do hold a strong opinion in term of the bandwidth and influence the topic is having. For example, I attend a trade union conference every year. Last year the conference, which is supposed to represent 200K members in a members led union, talked more about Trans issues than it did about pay and conditions. I have no issue that these topics are debated but they have simply taken over the left and trade unionism and as we all fight about Trans issues v Women's rights the employers sit back and watch. I think the same could be argued for the more progressive political parties who have been derailed by this issue and the far right have accepted the opportunity with open arms. There are so many problems in society that effect the vast majority of us and I would far rather stand shoulder to shoulder with all types of working people facing these universal issues which if solved may well remove much of the hate and intolerance that trans people are facing.

The "Left" can't discuss economics as they have conceded that ground to neolibariĺsim which by its very nature is designed to be anti-civic, anti-municipal, anti-organised workforces and anti-"rights".

Blair thought he could put a sticking plaster on it but you can't as the next lot rip it off.

The conversations on the "left" therefore centre around civil "movements" and minority concerns. The right know this and tie the left in knots needling them being anti those minority concerns. So the conversation becomes mired.


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[JimBHibees]

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Quite. It all adds up to the “Let the Left eat itself” that the right are inherently designed not to do.

Even if you break it down to pure extreme right (one leader, one party) vs extreme Left, many people represented by many bodies and sub committees, all equal, all rise ring of a voice.

I often hark back to the Spanish Civil war. The Nationalists could gather round Franco, one supreme leader restoring the aristocracy and church. The left meanwhile was split into Communists (backed by Russia), Anarchists, Syndicasts, Socialists, democrats, anti Monarchy, anti Church, land reformers, atheists.

In the end they were not united enough and vying for power amongst themselves. The Right won, and stayed in power until the 1970s.

The SNP and Independence movement in general needs to been the same way. Unite round one message. The time for squabbling comes post independence. Then everyone can have a democratic go at government.

But for now, Trans Issues for example seem to be something that progressive / left leaning parties and governments tie themselves in knots while the opposition / conservatives sit back and rub their hands. It’s almost an unsolvable riddle. That I agree, takes up too much air time and plays into the hands of the right.

J

I wouldn’t underestimate the importance of the support Franco got from Hitler and Mussolini in Spanish civil war while Britain and France stood by.

[superfurryhibby]

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The "Left" can't discuss economics as they have conceded that ground to neolibariĺsim which by its very nature is designed to be anti-civic, anti-municipal, anti-organised workforces and anti-"rights".

Blair thought he could put a sticking plaster on it but you can't as the next lot rip it off.

The conversations on the "left" therefore centre around civil "movements" and minority concerns. The right know this and tie the left in knots needling them being anti those minority concerns. So the conversation becomes mired.


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Blair delivered peace in Northern Ireland, a minimum wage, working tax credits (I think ) and Scottish and Welsh Parliament, all still fully functioning. There were significant economic strategies too, although not all of them worked that well.

If a government has a mandate then surely an elected left would have the opportunity to bring about radical change. Corbyn put an alternative to the people and 1st time round, he came close to convincing them, despite the massive opposition from vested interests.

It took the Tories 30 year before they started dismantling the reforms made by the 1st majority Labour government. Perhaps times have changed but the grip of neoliberalism on political power is exaggerated, maybe they want us to believe that there is no scope for any radicalism?

[Pretty Boy]

Is it wrong for me to say I don't know what I think on this topic? I could post at length today about it then read something else tomorrow that swings me the other way. Even experts in the field seem unable to form any broad consensus on the subject.

I find people who can reduce it to 'trans women are women' or 'there are only two genders' with no scope for movement at all baffling tbh. It seems way too complex for 'stop the boats' style sloganeering. Maybe I'm just a bit thick and it really is that simple but I'm not convinced (on the simplicity part, I make no comment on my own intelligence or lack thereof).

[Colr]

I see Trump has kicked the trannies out of the US army.

[147lothian]

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I see Trump has kicked the trannies out of the US army.

Trump has also kicked the trannies out of female only prisons, this was probably to prevent any repeat of what happened in the New Jersey prison when two inmates were impregnated by a fellow prisoner.

[jamie_1875]

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Have any women with penises been in woman changing rooms with their wang out.

It’s an often used trope, but not one that my wife, her friends or any of the hundreds of school girls that she teaches have come across.

J

Another example:

https://telegraph.co.uk/gift/f1fb9edc8aec10a9

"A transgender NHS doctor who got changed in front of women colleagues has claimed to be a biological female.

Dr Beth Upton, who was born male and now identifies as a woman, stated in evidence to an employment tribunal “I’m biologically female” and said that sex had “no defined or agreed meaning in science”.

General question not directed at you in particular but how can a man claim to be a biological female?

[lapsedhibee]

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Another example:

https://telegraph.co.uk/gift/f1fb9edc8aec10a9

"A transgender NHS doctor who got changed in front of women colleagues has claimed to be a biological female.

Dr Beth Upton, who was born male and now identifies as a woman, stated in evidence to an employment tribunal “I’m biologically female” and said that sex had “no defined or agreed meaning in science”.

General question not directed at you in particular but how can a man claim to be a biological female?

Lewis Carroll had this one covered:

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

[CropleyWasGod]

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Another example:

https://telegraph.co.uk/gift/f1fb9edc8aec10a9

"A transgender NHS doctor who got changed in front of women colleagues has claimed to be a biological female.

Dr Beth Upton, who was born male and now identifies as a woman, stated in evidence to an employment tribunal “I’m biologically female” and said that sex had “no defined or agreed meaning in science”.

General question not directed at you in particular but how can a man claim to be a biological female?

The big difference in this case is that the doctor doesn't have a *****. She has gone through transition AFAIK.

That case is ongoing, but a question I would have asked the nurse is "would you feel threatened if a gay woman got undressed beside you?".

[jamie_1875]

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The big difference in this case is that the doctor doesn't have a *****. She has gone through transition AFAIK.

That case is ongoing, but a question I would have asked the nurse is "would you feel threatened if a gay woman got undressed beside you?".

And if she said no I wouldn't because that's not a man...?

[CropleyWasGod]

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And if she said no I wouldn't because that's not a man...?

I'd just like to hear her answer. No speculation.

It's key to the whole case, I would have thought, for both sides of the argument.

[jamie_1875]

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I'd just like to hear her answer. No speculation.

It's key to the whole case, I would have thought, for both sides of the argument.

I am guessing she has over many years of being a female nurse changed next to many gay females so without knowing for definite then I would suggest she is fine with that, but not fine getting changed and watching a man get changed next to her.

There is no history or her having issues changing next to females.

She complained and then got suspended and then the NHS Fife Board tried to have the tribunal heard in secret.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I am guessing she has over many years of being a female nurse changed next to many gay female so without knowing for definite then I would suggest she is fine with that, but not fine getting changed and watching a man get changed next to her.

She complained and then got suspended and then the NHS Fife Board tried to have the tribunal heard in secret.

Like I say

[jamie_1875]

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Like I say

I think you are clutching at straws there but fair enough. Having been a nurse for over 30 years it's a pretty strong assumption to suggest she doesn't have an issue with gay females changing with her. I am also sure if she did it would be relevant for this case and it isn't referred to anywhere.

But if she did say she had no problems with that what do you think?

[CropleyWasGod]

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I think you are clutching at straws there but fair enough. Having been a nurse for over 30 years it's a pretty strong assumption to suggest she doesn't have an issue with gay females changing with her.

But if she did say she had no problems with that what do you think?

I'm not sure what you mean by clutching at straws.

I'd just like to hear her answer.

[jamie_1875]

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I'm not sure what you mean by clutching at straws.

I'd just like to hear her answer.

Well I am saying after 30 years of being a nurse and no history of having issues of changing next to gay females then she doesn't have a problem with it.

I was asking what your answer was if she said no she doesn't have a problem? You did say you would ask her and I am asking what your response would be if she answered your question and said she was fine with it.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Well I am saying after 30 years of being a nurse and no history of having issues of changing next to gay females then she doesn't have a problem with it.

I was asking what your answer was if she said no she doesn't have a problem?

You're guessing that part, though, no?

I'm not going to speculate.

[Stairway 2 7]

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The big difference in this case is that the doctor doesn't have a *****. She has gone through transition AFAIK.

That case is ongoing, but a question I would have asked the nurse is "would you feel threatened if a gay woman got undressed beside you?".

She is pre-op the incident only happened 14 months after she decided to live as a female, so too early to get a GRC in Scotland which is given after living as a female for 2 years.

Over 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males so the lesbian comparison doesn't work imo. It isn't that trans are more likely to assault females, it's women should have spaces away from biological males.

Turning one toilet small toilet in a hospital into a single gender neutral changing room would sort this

[jamie_1875]

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You're guessing that part, though, no?

I'm not going to speculate.

You did say you would ask her that question though. I was merely asking if she said she didn't have a problem changing next to gay females what your response to the question you wanted to ask would be?

Seeing as she has been a female nurse and will have been getting changed next to many many gay women over 3 decades of nursing without any history of having a problem with it I think it's very clear she didn't have a problem with it. But that's nothing to do with the case that is being heard, it's kind of meaningless so why would you have wanted to ask her?

[CropleyWasGod]

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She is pre-op the incident only happened 14 months after she decided to live as a female, so too early to get a GRC in Scotland which is given after living as a female for 2 years.

Over 99% of sexual assaults are committed by males so the lesbian comparison doesn't work imo. It isn't that trans are more likely to assault females, it's women should have spaces away from biological males.

Turning one toilet small toilet in a hospital into a single gender neutral changing room would sort this

Thanks for clarifying .

[speedy_gonzales]

Re this Kirkcaldy nurse/Dr story, I don't know if it's a true representation of factual happenings or a twist by the various media outlets, but the nurse seems to come across as bullying/spoiling for a fight. The trans Dr seems to have tried their best to not provoke the situation.
I also find it strange that no other colleagues have came forward with the complainant (although she was well supported when she arrived at the tribunal last week).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gx07xdpw5o

[Pretty Boy]

The issue I have in this case is the nurse seems like a thoroughly disagreeable individual.

I accept that doesn't really matter if her argument is valid; which it may be, I'm not a woman so I'm not going to speak on her behalf, there is enough of that goes on in this debate and beyond.

Her general conduct around the situation seems tactless at best though and some of her beliefs around other issues that have been touched upon during the tribunal mean she will likely do her cause more harm than good regardless of the outcome. I've always found myself leaning towards believing there has to be certain lines in the sand around safe, or rather private, spaces for women. I remember being utterly appalled when I saw someone on here suggest a rape victim who objected to dealing with a counsellor who was born biologically male should be 'reeducated' and thought that crossed a line. However in this instance everything I read makes me think the nurse was something of a bully and she was deliberately nasty and hurtful. Her insistence on calling the doctor a man during the tribunal just seems needlessly petty; the point about the changing situation still stands without such small supposed victories. I suppose the doctors claim that biological sex is 'nebulous' is the other side of that coin and reducing womanhood to some state of mind is also pretty objectionable and arguably a philosophical rather than scientific argument.

It feels to me like there is a lot to playing to the gallery going on and this could have been sorted out internally with a bit of basic respect on all sides, compromise and a fairly inexpensive installation of some private changing cubicles in a communal space.