Hamas attack on Israel

[MKHIBEE]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The Israeli army on Saturday declared its soldiers guilty of the killings of three Israeli hostages in Gaza who were held by Hamas following preliminary investigations, citing them for acting outside the rules of engagement.
...

"An Israeli force began to advance towards the building, hearing the detainee inside crying for help in Hebrew (save me). The leader of the force asked him to come out at that point, but as soon as he did, an Israeli soldier opened fire on him from close range, killing him," according to the investigation

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east...-probe/3084538

It’s not only Israeli hostages the Israeli army are killing
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...any-of-its-own

[Keith_M]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Not sure what your point is Keith.

No specific point, just giving the latest updates from IDF on the situation.


FWIW, I get your point about the mental state of the soldiers thrown into the situation.

[Pretty Boy]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-manger-square

This article paints a picture of how the war extends beyond the boundaries of Gaza. The Israeli government have emboldened extremists within their own community. When you read of the deliberate erosion of non Jewish communities in both the West Bank and Israel itself and the complicity of the government, IDF and other security forces then it's hard to see this as anything other than ethnic cleansing.

[JimBHibees]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-manger-square

This article paints a picture of how the war extends beyond the boundaries of Gaza. The Israeli government have emboldened extremists within their own community. When you read of the deliberate erosion of non Jewish communities in both the West Bank and Israel itself and the complicity of the government, IDF and other security forces then it's hard to see this as anything other than ethnic cleansing.

Predictably depressing that the West is complicit in this and yet are surprised of the huge levels of hared and mistrust of them. We still trying to win the Hearts and minds after carpet bombing cities.

[Keith_M]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Predictably depressing that the West is complicit in this and yet are surprised of the huge levels of hared and mistrust of them. We still trying to win the Hearts and minds after carpet bombing cities.

Not his biggest fan but for one of the best examples of what happens to any critic of Israel, just look at Jeremy Corbyn.

[Hibrandenburg]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-manger-square

This article paints a picture of how the war extends beyond the boundaries of Gaza. The Israeli government have emboldened extremists within their own community. When you read of the deliberate erosion of non Jewish communities in both the West Bank and Israel itself and the complicity of the government, IDF and other security forces then it's hard to see this as anything other than ethnic cleansing.

I have trouble distinguishing between what the Israelis are doing in Gaza and what the Germans did in Warsaw. I know I'll get slated for drawing the comparison but before anyone gets laid in, please note I restricted my comparison to Warsaw.

[MKHIBEE]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Not his biggest fan but for one of the best examples of what happens to any critic of Israel, just look at Jeremy Corbyn.

With one of the main drivers of the campaign being Starmer, that self confessed Zionist

[MKHIBEE]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I have trouble distinguishing between what the Israelis are doing in Gaza and what the Germans did in Warsaw. I know I'll get slated for drawing the comparison but before anyone gets laid in, please note I restricted my comparison to Warsaw.

No argument from me, I think you are spot on.

[neil7908]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I have trouble distinguishing between what the Israelis are doing in Gaza and what the Germans did in Warsaw. I know I'll get slated for drawing the comparison but before anyone gets laid in, please note I restricted my comparison to Warsaw.

Agreed.

The way our Government and the Americans are supporting this is horrendous.

How many times has Biden or one of his representatives implored Israel to protect civilians? It most be well into double figures by now. Which clearly shows they aren't doing it. So what's the next step going to be? They will strongly implore, whilst still sending over billions. Israelis are probably pissing themselves laughing.

We also announced we'd ban Israeli settlers who had committed violence. Completely bizarre strategy, as if their violence wasn't being carried out with collusion or at least approval of the state. Couldn't we, you know, put pressure on our ally to stop violence in the first place?

[Ozyhibby]

https://x.com/mairavz/status/1739364...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

Supported by the UK govt and the incoming Labour govts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pretty Boy]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

https://x.com/mairavz/status/1739364...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

Supported by the UK govt and the incoming Labour govts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

'Ethnic transfer' sounds like something associated with an ideology that begins with N that you aren't allowed to say when talking about Israeli foreign policy.

[DaveF]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

'Ethnic transfer' sounds like something associated with an ideology that begins with N that you aren't allowed to say when talking about Israeli foreign policy.

If it talks likes a nazi and acts like a nazi, then it's a nazi. Netanyahu knows he has a free pass from the US while everyone else falls into line so he's doing what he likes.

[MKHIBEE]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

https://x.com/mairavz/status/1739364...dxJXScFNwz8V4A
Supported by the UK govt and the incoming Labour govts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No surprise a potentially incoming, Zionist, prime minister supports a Zionist policy. Not that I needed a reason not to vote Labour, but if I did there’s one right there.

[Keith_M]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I have trouble distinguishing between what the Israelis are doing in Gaza and what the Germans did in Warsaw. I know I'll get slated for drawing the comparison but before anyone gets laid in, please note I restricted my comparison to Warsaw.

Actually, that's a very good comparison.

I've read a lot about that particular part of WWII and the similarities are quite striking.

[Keith_M]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

'Ethnic transfer' sounds like something associated with an ideology that begins with N that you aren't allowed to say when talking about Israeli foreign policy.

That really is shocking.

[MKHIBEE]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

https://x.com/mairavz/status/1739364...dxJXScFNwz8V4A

Supported by the UK govt and the incoming Labour govts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Which ties in with this issue

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/ne...ilding-in-gaza

[Hibs4185]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

No surprise a potentially incoming, Zionist, prime minister supports a Zionist policy. Not that I needed a reason not to vote Labour, but if I did there’s one right there.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the definition of a Zionist? Seen it used a number of different contexts l

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Which ties in with this issue

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/ne...ilding-in-gaza

Wonder if Starmer will put himself down for a new apartment.?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Wonder if Starmer will put himself down for a new apartment.?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Starmer is asking for the same as a good chunk of the population want I bet. Hamas to think of the population give up their fight and release the hostages in return for a ceasefire. Its never going to happen but if you say its ridiculous you must also admit a full ceasefire is ridiculously not going to happen.

The only thing that's created a ceasefire is releasing hostages. If Hamas wanted one they would release more. Two ****my sides will continue with as is with no regards to the population

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Starmer is asking for the same as a good chunk of the population want I bet. Hamas to think of the population give up their fight and release the hostages in return for a ceasefire. Its never going to happen but if you say its ridiculous you must also admit a full ceasefire is ridiculously not going to happen.

The only thing that's created a ceasefire is releasing hostages. If Hamas wanted one they would release more. Two ****my sides will continue with as is with no regards to the population

‘They were going to do it anyway’ isn’t where I want my political leaders to be and certainly not where the Labour Party should be, especially when it comes to committing war crimes and ethnic cleansing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MKHIBEE]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the definition of a Zionist? Seen it used a number of different contexts l

This is one view on Zionism and how it can become an integral part of the solution which includes Palestinians

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2...onist-genocide

[MKHIBEE]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Starmer is asking for the same as a good chunk of the population want I bet. Hamas to think of the population give up their fight and release the hostages in return for a ceasefire. Its never going to happen but if you say its ridiculous you must also admit a full ceasefire is ridiculously not going to happen.

The only thing that's created a ceasefire is releasing hostages. If Hamas wanted one they would release more. Two ****my sides will continue with as is with no regards to the population

If Israel wanted the hostages released they would agree to a ceasefire. The Hannibal effect seems to be part of the decision making here. I think Netanyahu has nailed Israel’s colours to the mast, the removal of as many Palestinians as possible with those that remain shoehorned into a tiny part of the Gaza Strip. Perhaps the UK will treat Palestinians the same as the Ukrainians?

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

‘They were going to do it anyway’ isn’t where I want my political leaders to be and certainly not where the Labour Party should be, especially when it comes to committing war crimes and ethnic cleansing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He isn't he's saying they are going to do it anyway. He's saying Hamas release hostages and put down their weapons and Israel stop the bombing. Its hardly unreasonable.

As for the genocide they have been doing it for decades, politicians pick and choose when they make a stand against it. Israel and Russia gets vocal opposition. Complete silence and not one march and barely a comment on here when Assad did the same to Aleppo, Erdoğan has been committing genocide against the kurds for decades, 180 Christians slaughtered in a genocide in Nigeria yesterday, 1.7 million Afghans have been told to leave Pakistan this month tens of thousands are expected to die in the exodus.

I wouldn't expect much from our political class they care when they want a photo op

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

[/B][/I][/U]


If Israel wanted the hostages released they would agree to a ceasefire. The Hannibal effect seems to be part of the decision making here. I think Netanyahu has nailed Israel’s colours to the mast, the removal of as many Palestinians as possible with those that remain shoehorned into a tiny part of the Gaza Strip. Perhaps the UK will treat Palestinians the same as the Ukrainians?

If Hamas wanted a ceasefire they would go to Qatar agree to release hostages and a ceasefire would happen. Why would Israel ceasefire when their ground operation is going fast. Both sides don't care about the hostages and are going to fight until the end, that's hardly surprising for two repugnant regimes

[Pretty Boy]

The below is a letter that was published in our church newsletter on Christmas Eve. It's an interesting read for a number of reasons imo. Firstly I think it paints a picture of what life was like in Gaza a few weeks ago. Yes there was conflict but for many it was also typified by the banalities of every day life. Decorating a house, shopping, working, playing with children. And then what it is like now which seems like something beyond my worst nightmares. The only hope is that there is a majority on all sides who share this man's dreams for and desire of peace and in time their voices are heard.

(Apologies for any formatting issues, this was a straight copy and paste from a PDF)

"Rami Aljelda - I’m a Palestinian Christian in Gaza.

I want peace - for my homeland and my family.I have been living in Gaza my whole life but,honestly, I can barely remember the details of my life before two months ago. So much has changed — and it was already a year of major change in my personal life. In May of 2022 I married my wife, Maryan. Over the past year, we designed and built our house together, inch By inch. Maryan chose the colour of the curtains, the furniture. We did everything together, going here and there, to restaurants, to people’s homes. We had a life. We had community. And in June of this year, we had a daughter.

Even though we have lived through other conflicts before, this is the first one that has happened since I married and had a child. It is totally different. I don’t know how to describe it, but with everything that
happens to me, I always think about my wife and my daughter, Kylie. It is not like before. I have responsibility as a new father. We don’t set an alarm because we don’t sleep very well, and we also wake up from the sound of bombings.

We have a small community of Christians here — about 900 people out of two million. We all know one another because we are all one community. Of course, we have had bad times before, with smaller escalations happening.
But we were able to overcome them. We didn’t have to leave our homes. This time, we knew it would not be the same. Within two days of the start of the conflict, without any hesitation, my family went to St. Porphyrius Greek Orthodox Church. We have lived in the church for nearly two months. I can say we are
“living” in the church — not staying or taking shelter — because it’s really like we are living here. Each day we wake up in a hall with 300 other people. We don’t set an alarm because we don’t sleep very well, and we also wake up from the sound of bombings. There is nothing to do except help out in the distribution of food and water, but we have a lot of roles and responsibilities in this effort. After two months, we have gained a good deal of experience. We have a shower schedule for every person. We have a queue in the mornings for people to go to the
bathroom and a schedule for washing clothes by hand. We have only two hours of electricity a day if we’re lucky, because we don’t have enough fuel. During those two hours, everybody is charging their phones, their laptops, or anything they need. And we help each other to cook. We have to make sure that we have supplies that can last for a while because we don’t know how long this will go on. We haven’t eaten a single fruit or vegetable in more than 50 days. Every day that goes by is even harder than the day before. My daughter
hasn’t been able to get two essential vaccinations and is sick from the polluted
drinking water. The stress level is high. We didn’t think about food before, about electricity. They seemed like small things
in our daily life. Now, our entire days are scheduled and defined by them. We have zero connection with the Internet and a poor connection with mobile devices.

Sometimes we can’t reach our friends or our families who are not with us. Sometimes we hear bad news about our friends — news that we should have heard 10 days ago. But we’re doing all that we can to hang in there. We’re doing our best to stay strong. During the pause in fighting, my wife and I were able to leave the
church to go back to visit our home. I don’t know how to describe our visit. We might be better off if we had not had that chance to return. We drove my car and saw what has become of the city. Everything is on the ground. Demolished. You can barely recognize the streets. It’s a horror show. Words, videos, not even pictures can capture what it is like to drive through Gaza and see the destruction. It’s beyond comprehension. During the pause in fighting, my wife and I went back to our house to pick up some things — water and some food. We found our cat, Louki, who was really like our first child. He had survived. When we visited our home, we felt like it could be for the last time; our house could be the next to be demolished. We looked at every inch and corner of the home because we put it together. When I got married, I spent all my savings to build the house. I spent everything I had because I wanted to be comfortable living in our home, raising our
family. We never imagined that we could lose it so soon.

My dream is a place where I can live and work, where my wife is working, and my children can be living in a peaceful environment where there is no violence. More than 70 percent of the people here don’t have a home anymore. They also lost their stores, their
businesses. Many are living on the street. If the war suddenly ended now, nobody could go back to their lives before the conflict — even if their homes were standing - because they don’t have water or electricity or any
of the essentials needed to live. There are no stores, no supermarkets, nothing to buy. And even if they are able to rebuild, it would never be the same. They lost pictures, memories of their childhoods, their weddings,
their life milestones — belongings that nobody can replace or rebuild.

Now, since the fighting has begun again, we cannot leave the church at all. Currently, we’re hearing a lot of bombing around us. We don’t startle anymore when we hear heavy bombings. We know that the tanks are
around us. Two days ago, my car was destroyed because it was parked in a schoolyard next to our church. With Christmas approaching, no one here is going to celebrate as usual, even though we are living together here at the church. We have no desire to celebrate because we lost 17 of our relatives and friends here on these grounds in a bombing. It will be impossible to feel the happiness of Christmas—no decorating a Christmas tree or dressing in our best outfits. We will attend Masses only.
Honestly, we are not O.K. I can clearly say that my dream for my family now is totally different than my dreams the day before this crisis began. What I want for my family and what I want for Gaza are the same: peace. My dream is a place where I can live and work, where my wife is working, and my children can be living in a peaceful environment where there is no violence, where there’s no conflict with any other party. This is the only dream that I can imagine. This is what I want and what I hope for: a safe place where we can guarantee that there are no conflicts, and where people can really build their dreams and start building their

lives. I spent much of my childhood on the grounds of this church where we are staying. It has always been a close-knit, welcoming space. Since we are a small Christian community here in Gaza, we all know each
other. We have married within our community.
If the people here are not cousins or relatives, they would be extended family. We know that any moment could be our last. All the people who have died, they had dreams, too. They had parents or were parents.
They had families and friends who loved them, who searched for them, who miss and grieve them now that they are gone. I would want people to know that there’s another life in Gaza than this horror. There are civilians with hopes and dreams. There are people who believe in peace and who just want to live peacefully.

Rami Aljelda has worked as a senior project officer for Catholic Relief Services in Gaza for the last nine years.
He attended the Holy Family School in Gaza as a child and holds a bachelor’s degree in civil engineering and a master’s degree in data management. He lives in Gaza with his wife and daughter."

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

He isn't he's saying they are going to do it anyway. He's saying Hamas release hostages and put down their weapons and Israel stop the bombing. Its hardly unreasonable.

As for the genocide they have been doing it for decades, politicians pick and choose when they make a stand against it. Israel and Russia gets vocal opposition. Complete silence and not one march and barely a comment on here when Assad did the same to Aleppo, Erdoğan has been committing genocide against the kurds for decades, 180 Christians slaughtered in a genocide in Nigeria yesterday, 1.7 million Afghans have been told to leave Pakistan this month tens of thousands are expected to die in the exodus.

I wouldn't expect much from our political class they care when they want a photo op

I know war happens elsewhere, it’s just that usually our govt doesn’t support it. And we should hold so called democracies like Isreal claims to be to higher standards. As far as I know, those other examples were not supported by the Labour Party.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I know war happens elsewhere, it’s just that usually our govt doesn’t support it. And we should hold so called democracies like Isreal claims to be to higher standards. As far as I know, those other examples were not supported by the Labour Party.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They aren't supporting I don't think, what I read he said that he wants Israel to ceasefire. He also wants hamas to lay down the weapons and release the hostages. I don't see how that's controversial. He was ripped on here for saying similar before then two days later there was a ceasefire in exchange for hostages released.

[Ozyhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

They aren't supporting I don't think, what I read he said that he wants Israel to ceasefire. He also wants hamas to lay down the weapons and release the hostages. I don't see how that's controversial. He was ripped on here for saying similar before then two days later there was a ceasefire in exchange for hostages released.

His new position is a ‘sustainable ceasefire with hostage release’.
That wasn’t his position before.
All conditions placed on the Palestinians. Nothing about settlements in the West Bank?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MKHIBEE]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

His new position is a ‘sustainable ceasefire with hostage release’.
That wasn’t his position before.
All conditions placed on the Palestinians. Nothing about settlements in the West Bank?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not like Starmer to change his position to try and gain credibility with the public

[Keith_M]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the definition of a Zionist? Seen it used a number of different contexts l

The meaning will depend on who you're talking to, as it's used by some people as a positive term, and others as negative.

One common definition is the right of the Jewish people to a home of their own, which sounds reasonable.

A different take on it is the right of the Jewish people to the land that once was Israel, nearly two centuries ago, no matter who they have to displace.

Interestingly, if you believe the bible (yeah, I know), the ancient state of Israel was formed by the Jews who fled Egypt, arrived in a land called 'Canaan'... and murdered every man, woman and child to make it their own land.

The scary part is that some members of the extreme right in Israel pretty much share the same point of view as those ancient predecessors... and when somebody is insultingly called a Zionist, they're often inferring that they share, or at least support, that viewpoint.