The Trans Rights Debate

[Ozyhibby]

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This is known as the amendments I mentioned to include more safeguards. Why do you keep referencing one politician, it had cross party support?

It did have cross party support but the cowardice of Labour and the Lib Dem’s when the s35 order came through was notable. The SNP should waste no more time on this issue. The bill is passed and it’s on Alistair Jack’s desk. Anyone not happy about that can take it up with the UK govt.


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[Santa Cruz]

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It did have cross party support but the cowardice of Labour and the Lib Dem’s when the s35 order came through was notable. The SNP should waste no more time on this issue. The bill is passed and it’s on Alistair Jack’s desk. Anyone not happy about that can take it up with the UK govt.


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I won't be emailing a UK Gov politician. This is SG legislation. They started this process with cross party support. Simply putting more safeguards into the bill by way of amendments to ensure there is no clash with the Equality Act 2010 and address concerns over safe spaces should be enough to satisfy UK Gov imo.

[Ozyhibby]

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I won't be emailing a UK Gov politician. This is SG legislation. They started this process with cross party support. Simply putting more safeguards into the bill by way of amendments to ensure there is no clash with the Equality Act 2010 and address concerns over safe spaces should be enough to satisfy UK Gov imo.

Both the Scottish office minister who brought forward the s35 and the equalities minister were asked to meet with the Scottish parliament to discuss this and both declined. It’s their baby now.


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[WeeRussell]

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I won't be emailing a UK Gov politician. This is SG legislation. They started this process with cross party support. Simply putting more safeguards into the bill by way of amendments to ensure there is no clash with the Equality Act 2010 and address concerns over safe spaces should be enough to satisfy UK Gov imo.

It should be, SC. But depends if we really believe those were their only concerns and if they really want to be satisfied with something proposed by the SG.

[SHODAN]

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Meanwhile in the real world violence against Trans people is what I’m more concerned about. Rather than some far out hypothetical scenarios regarding changing rooms.

A 16 year old murdered over the weekend.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...e_iOSApp_Other

It's telling that this has already dropped out of the thread discussion.

This national "debate" has literally killed someone. Violence against trans people has skyrocketed in the last few years and it was always going to culminate in something like this.

I was sixteen when this girl was born; that is absolutely heartbreaking to me. No age at all.

[He's here!]

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I won't be emailing a UK Gov politician. This is SG legislation. They started this process with cross party support. Simply putting more safeguards into the bill by way of amendments to ensure there is no clash with the Equality Act 2010 and address concerns over safe spaces should be enough to satisfy UK Gov imo.

It probably would be, but doing so would effectively mean stripping out the controversial aspects of the bill which caused all this furore in the first place and rendering the legal protections offered to trans people little different to those already in place (which are, contrary to the claims of campaigners, sufficient in the eyes of many trans people). The bill would be largely redundant.

The cross party support mantra is a bit of a smokescreen as the only party which offered a free vote were the Tories. The scale of the SNP revolt hinted at how much disquiet existed within the party, while Labour...well, they've gone into hiding since the Bryson affair.

[Ozyhibby]

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It probably would be, but doing so would effectively mean stripping out the controversial aspects of the bill which caused all this furore in the first place and rendering the legal protections offered to trans people little different to those already in place (which are, contrary to the claims of campaigners, sufficient in the eyes of many trans people). The bill would be largely redundant.

The cross party support mantra is a bit of a smokescreen as the only party which offered a free vote were the Tories. The scale of the SNP revolt hinted at how much disquiet existed within the party, while Labour...well, they've gone into hiding since the Bryson affair.

It’s not going to happen now. I doubt the new FM, whoever it is, goes anywhere near this issue. It will be left as it is just now.


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[Hibrandenburg]

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It’s not going to happen now. I doubt the new FM, whoever it is, goes anywhere near this issue. It will be left as it is just now.


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Rightly so. The bill was passed by the Scottish Parliament and stopped by the UK government, if they UK government had wanted to work with the Scottish Government to adapt the legislation then then they would have put in a section 33 order rather than a 35, the ball's in their court.

[CropleyWasGod]

Spain the latest country to adopt self-ID, for 16 and overs.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-new...pters-hesitate

[archie]

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Rightly so. The bill was passed by the Scottish Parliament and stopped by the UK government, if they UK government had wanted to work with the Scottish Government to adapt the legislation then then they would have put in a section 33 order rather than a 35, the ball's in their court.

I thought that section 33 was about competence where section 35 was about impacting on UK.

[He's here!]

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Rightly so. The bill was passed by the Scottish Parliament and stopped by the UK government, if they UK government had wanted to work with the Scottish Government to adapt the legislation then then they would have put in a section 33 order rather than a 35, the ball's in their court.

Until yesterday this was 'a democratic outrage', an 'attack on the Scottish parliament' and Sturgeon was heading all guns blazing towards another 'inevitable' court battle. Now that the queen bee's reign is over and we're back on a wheesht for indy footing it's suddenly move along, nothing to see here.

Why would the UK government be remotely bothered if it gets binned? It's the best place for it and it's only the SG who are left looking daft.

No chance the Greens will simply nod through the bill's abandonment incidentally.

[Glory Lurker]

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Until yesterday this was 'a democratic outrage', an 'attack on the Scottish parliament' and Sturgeon was heading all guns blazing towards another 'inevitable' court battle. Now that the queen bee's reign is over and we're back on a wheesht for indy footing it's suddenly move along, nothing to see here.

Why would the UK government be remotely bothered if it gets binned? It's the best place for it and it's only the SG who are left looking daft.

No chance the Greens will simply nod through the bill's abandonment incidentally.

What about Labour and the Lib Dems?

[Ozyhibby]

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Until yesterday this was 'a democratic outrage', an 'attack on the Scottish parliament' and Sturgeon was heading all guns blazing towards another 'inevitable' court battle. Now that the queen bee's reign is over and we're back on a wheesht for indy footing it's suddenly move along, nothing to see here.

Why would the UK government be remotely bothered if it gets binned? It's the best place for it and it's only the SG who are left looking daft.

No chance the Greens will simply nod through the bill's abandonment incidentally.

My opinion has not changed one little bit. An issue I would not have wasted any political capital on. It remains undemocratic that the UK govt stopped it and I would leave it that way.
Eventually England will bring in these changes and Scotland will be one of the only countries in Europe not to have reformed. Leave it on the UK govts desk. Eventually they will lift the s35.
What can the greens complain about? The bill was passed by the parliament. The SNP kept its side of the deal.


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[147lothian]

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It’s not going to happen now. I doubt the new FM, whoever it is, goes anywhere near this issue. It will be left as it is just now.


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The new FM won't go anywhere near it because when when voices within Sturgeon's own party warned that the gender-reform bill was flawed, she dismissed their concerns as 'not relevant'. Indeed, as disquiet about gender self-identification grew in volume, Sturgeon doubled down. Rather than reflecting or listening, the first minister smeared the bill's opponents as 'transphobic, misogynist, often homophobic, possibly some of them racist as well'.

[He's here!]

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What about Labour and the Lib Dems?

They've gone into hiding since the Bryson case lest anyone asks then whether a double rapist can be a woman. It's the Greens who insisted this bill took priority in the new parliamentary term.

[He's here!]

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The new FM won't go anywhere near it because when when voices within Sturgeon's own party warned that the gender-reform bill was flawed, she dismissed their concerns as 'not relevant'. Indeed, as disquiet about gender self-identification grew in volume, Sturgeon doubled down. Rather than reflecting or listening, the first minister smeared the bill's opponents as 'transphobic, misogynist, often homophobic, possibly some of them racist as well'.

...and paid a heavy price for her blinkered stance.

[Glory Lurker]

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They've gone into hiding since the Bryson case lest anyone asks then whether a double rapist can be a woman. It's the Greens who insisted this bill took priority in the new parliamentary term.

The issue was more what prison. Under the current law. But it was a chance to conflate with the Holyrood bill to try to make political capital. Headlines of "Trans Butcher". Forget about how that marginalises the already marginalised. It's all about getting Nicola.

[Santa Cruz]

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...and paid a heavy price for her blinkered stance.

It wasn't just this one issue according to last weeks poll (other Leaders public ratings included also) Realise this could have been posted on other threads but worth pointing out seeing as her resignation is being linked solely to GRR.


https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-p...ish-government

[Ozyhibby]

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It wasn't just this one issue according to last weeks poll (other Leaders public ratings included also) Realise this could have been posted on other threads but worth pointing out seeing as her resignation is being linked solely to GRR.


https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-p...ish-government

I don’t think it’s down to GRR at all. I think she could have weathered that storm no problem. I think the de-facto referendum was a much bigger factor. And she admitted as much in her speech. I think she realised she was taking the party down a path they did not want to go and which she also didn’t really believe in. She had boxed herself in and it was difficult to see a way out.


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[He's here!]

https://archive.is/8OejY

Mike Russell insisting the s35 issue should still go to court and that Sturgeon's strategies should be maintained 'not trashed'.

Bearing in mind Ash Regan looks set to run for leader could he be trying to scupper her bid? The new leader will be elected just in time to beat the April deadline for court action.

[He's here!]

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It wasn't just this one issue according to last weeks poll (other Leaders public ratings included also) Realise this could have been posted on other threads but worth pointing out seeing as her resignation is being linked solely to GRR.


https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/public-p...ish-government

https://archive.is/d3AUK

'She made the mistake of ignoring women. It was her failure to be able to say whether a rapist was a man which turned it in the end. If you can't say that how can anyone believe a word that comes out of your mouth?'

[James310]

Lorna Slater saying the GRA was a must have as part of the SNP/Green coalition, so if dropped then I suspect it's the end of that coalition. The SNP must look back on regret with that deal, it's been a disaster for them being held hostage to a fringe group of extremists.

[Glory Lurker]

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Lorna Slater saying the GRA was a must have as part of the SNP/Green coalition, so if dropped then I suspect it's the end of that coalition. The SNP must look back on regret with that deal, it's been a disaster for them being held hostage to a fringe group of extremists.

What, like Labour and the Lib Dems?

[Glory Lurker]

Could everyone in here against the GRA post their support for trans people, please?

[James310]

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What, like Labour and the Lib Dems?

They didn't do any deal with the SNP? I am talking about the coalition deal.

[Glory Lurker]

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They didn't do any deal with the SNP? I am talking about the coalition deal.

I was just talking about other parties that voted for it.

[James310]

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I was just talking about other parties that voted for it.

Ok but I wasn't, I was saying I expect the SNP/Green coalition to collapse if the SNP decide to drop the court challenge.

Although not sure how many times I heard how they would would win as it never impacted UK laws, so an odd decision.

[Glory Lurker]

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Ok but I wasn't, I was saying I expect the SNP/Green coalition to collapse if the SNP decide to drop the court challenge.

Although not sure how many times I heard how they would would win as it never impacted UK laws, so an odd decision.

Well if the pact collapses then it will be a minority government again. SNP propose FM to Scottish Parliament. Unlike WM there is actually a vote. We're outnumbered. I'd say failure of the Parliament to elect am FM of any hue calls for an election (no idea if that's the rules, though). Thoroughly democratic.

[147lothian]

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Lorna Slater saying the GRA was a must have as part of the SNP/Green coalition, so if dropped then I suspect it's the end of that coalition. The SNP must look back on regret with that deal, it's been a disaster for them being held hostage to a fringe group of extremists.

Exactly this, the recent disasters in The SNP all have a green source behind them, the greens have gone into government they don't like roads or building roads. The A9 promise is reneged upon which is huge in the Highland's. The GRA the failure to accept very reasonable amendments can only be explained by green pressure. The bottle return scheme, out of control under a green minister, the green tail has been wagging The SNP dog much to the detriment of government.

If you want another example of green extremism, it's not so long since the greens were accusing The SNP of transphobia.

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...-talks-3284279

[Stairway 2 7]

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I don’t think it’s down to GRR at all. I think she could have weathered that storm no problem. I think the de-facto referendum was a much bigger factor. And she admitted as much in her speech. I think she realised she was taking the party down a path they did not want to go and which she also didn’t really believe in. She had boxed herself in and it was difficult to see a way out.


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Must be a combination. There can be no denying the drop in the polls for both her personally and independence was due to it. It was too sharp and sudden to be anything else. She's usually so composed but I've never seen her as speechless as trying to defend Bryson in parliament. I think she was done like a kipper to be honest. Wish she'd stayed and the loons at the greens took the brunt