The Trans Rights Debate

[Hibrandenburg]

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I don't know how you can come to that conclusion from what I said. Care to expand?

Has the transgender bill removed the right to same sex care? A simple yes or no will suffice.

[Moulin Yarns]

My niece is up on holiday, she has 10 years in the care sector in Yorkshire.


I asked her about the intimate care of residents, something that has been brought up here, and she said that the care was very much the same for male and female residents, and administered by all staff in the same caring way. Men given care, such as toileting by female carers and vice versa, although probably 95% of care staff in her organisation are female.

Do the men complain? No.

[archie]

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Has the transgender bill removed the right to same sex care? A simple yes or no will suffice.

I'm not being evasive, but as I said, in conjunction with the Haldane judgement, it may do. This would need tested if the legislation was to go through. This is from the evidence given to the UK parliament committee yesterday: it would be helpful to revisit after Haldane judgment. Up until the ruling, we were not sure if sex could be modified by GRC for purposes of EA. Haldane judgment goes further than that, so 'sex' is now 'legal sex'.

I think the defensive line you are pushing is that it's the 2004 Act that is operating. Also, there is no provision in the current Bill that specifically states anything on same sex care. But the legal sex issue (which impacts on same sex care) will need tested in court. There is potential for a trans person giving care and the person receiving care to have recourse to the courts in the case of disputes.

I know you crave a simple answer to this, but it's just not there. It's a complex interaction between a range of different pieces of legislation, with uncertain outcomes.

[archie]

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My niece is up on holiday, she has 10 years in the care sector in Yorkshire.


I asked her about the intimate care of residents, something that has been brought up here, and she said that the care was very much the same for male and female residents, and administered by all staff in the same caring way. Men given care, such as toileting by female carers and vice versa, although probably 95% of care staff in her organisation are female.

Do the men complain? No.

Oh well, that's that then.

[Moulin Yarns]

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Oh well, that's that then.

I'll add that my niece is responsible for 250 staff, are first hand accounts not allowed in this debate?

[Stairway 2 7]

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My niece is up on holiday, she has 10 years in the care sector in Yorkshire.


I asked her about the intimate care of residents, something that has been brought up here, and she said that the care was very much the same for male and female residents, and administered by all staff in the same caring way. Men given care, such as toileting by female carers and vice versa, although probably 95% of care staff in her organisation are female.

Do the men complain? No.

Women can request same sex care, although I'm not sure what happens is a trans women is legally female and a business can't see if a birth certificate has been changed.

My mum has worked in various care her whole life from elderly to severely disabled

[archie]

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I'll add that my niece is responsible for 250 staff, are first hand accounts not allowed in this debate?

Of course they are. I'm also not doubting the lived experience that your niece has. But what about this woman's perspective https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-invalid-women/

[Stairway 2 7]

A repost on how gra will affect single sex care and spaces

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org...fing-for-msps/

[Moulin Yarns]

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Women can request same sex care, although I'm not sure what happens is a trans women is legally female and a business can't see if a birth certificate has been changed.

My mum has worked in various care her whole life from elderly to severely disabled

I got that, but do you not see the issue where men are having to be cared for by female carers, is there actually any difference to a woman being given care by a legitimate trans woman?

[AgentDaleCooper]

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Just out of interest, who do you think 'has skin in the game'.

cis and trans women. i think when i say 'has skin in the game' i probably mean something akin to 'has lived experience', though i know that phrase probably drives some folk up the wall.

i'm bothered about it because i have trans friends, and, obviously, friends and family who are cis women, some (actually a lot) of whom have been on the receiving end of varying degrees of predatory behaviour by men. many, i think the majority, actually approve of the GRR, but that is totally anecdotal so i don't expect you to take that seriously. genuinely, though, when i talk to those who are ardently in support of the legislation, i'm often trying to make the case that you have been arguing, just in order to try to get people to see common ground, because it really just seems to me that people don't necessarily fully understand both sides properly (i'm not saying that i do either though, i just try to!)

[archie]

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I got that, but do you not see the issue where men are having to be cared for by female carers, is there actually any difference to a woman being given care by a legitimate trans woman?

I think that's a false equivalence TBH. Also, you use the term 'legitimate trans woman'. I've not seen that before. What do you mean by that?

[archie]

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cis and trans women

So no place for men or trans men?

[James310]

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I got that, but do you not see the issue where men are having to be cared for by female carers, is there actually any difference to a woman being given care by a legitimate trans woman?

What's a legitimate trans woman? And what would you define as a non legitimate trans woman?

I think this is an important point.

[Stairway 2 7]

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I got that, but do you not see the issue where men are having to be cared for by female carers, is there actually any difference to a woman being given care by a legitimate trans woman?

When 99% of sexual assaults are committed by men women obviously have different hard gained protections.

[He's here!]

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Has the transgender bill removed the right to same sex care? A simple yes or no will suffice.

I don't think anyone could confidently provide a simple yes or no answer.

[AgentDaleCooper]

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So no place for men or trans men?

yeah, in relation to access to male only spaces - but that's not what anyone has been talking about on here. i think you're being either defensive or facetious.

[AgentDaleCooper]

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I don't think anyone could confidently provide a simple yes or no answer.

let me try - no, it's not.

people are concerned that it has, because the media having been cynically bringing up loads of cases NOT affected by the legislation in order to discredit the SNP. i don't personally care for the SNP at all, but i think this is what is happening. it's very similar to Corbyn - they've seen their opening, and they have the crowbars out.

[archie]

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yeah, in relation to access to male only spaces - but that's not what anyone has been talking about on here. i think you're being either defensive or facetious.

Not at all. I think this is a really important piece of social policy and related legislation. I think it's better for policy if there is widespread engagement with society rather than policy being something politicians 'do' to people.

[James310]

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let me try - no, it's not.

people are concerned that it has, because the media having been cynically bringing up loads of cases NOT affected by the legislation in order to discredit the SNP. i don't personally care for the SNP at all, but i think this is what is happening. it's very similar to Corbyn - they've seen their opening, and they have the crowbars out.

Why are Joanna Cherry and Ash Regan ex SNP Minister trying to discredit the SNP? And the others SNP MSPs that voted against it? Why would they look to discredit their own party?

Doesn't really make sense does it.

[AgentDaleCooper]

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I got that, but do you not see the issue where men are having to be cared for by female carers, is there actually any difference to a woman being given care by a legitimate trans woman?

there definitely is a difference - just look at the statistics, as pointed out by Stairway. It's why there is, at the very, very absolute bare minimum, an emotional legitimacy to women's concerns about the issue, which is why people need to be very careful in how they talk about it, and why all the 'TERF' stuff is so unhelpful.

[AgentDaleCooper]

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Not at all. I think this is a really important piece of social policy and related legislation. I think it's better for policy if there is widespread engagement with society rather than policy being something politicians 'do' to people.

are you as engaged with other issues as you are with this one?

[Stairway 2 7]

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let me try - no, it's not.

people are concerned that it has, because the media having been cynically bringing up loads of cases NOT affected by the legislation in order to discredit the SNP. i don't personally care for the SNP at all, but i think this is what is happening. it's very similar to Corbyn - they've seen their opening, and they have the crowbars out.

Joanna Cherry has probably been one of the biggest opponents online. She is a nightmare for pro gra supporters who want to paint this as an anti spn thing. It's ridiculous, people from across the spectrum are for and against

[AgentDaleCooper]

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Why are Joanna Cherry and Ash Regan ex SNP Minister trying to discredit the SNP? And the others SNP MSPs that voted against it? Why would they look to discredit their own party?

Doesn't really make sense does it.

they aren't the media. i'm talking about the stuff that's been in the papers recently and how it has been conflated as being related to the legislation.

[James310]

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they aren't the media. i'm talking about the stuff that's been in the papers recently and how it has been conflated as being related to the legislation.

So are the likes of Joanna Cherry's and Ash Regan's concerns valid and real? If not what has motivated them?

[AgentDaleCooper]

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Joanna Cherry has probably been one of the biggest opponents online. She is a nightmare for pro gra supporters who want to paint this as an anti spn thing. It's ridiculous, people from across the spectrum are for and against

she's also an absolute nightmare for anyone who disagrees with her about anything, often threatening journos with legal action when they refute her claims.

[James310]

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she's also an absolute nightmare for anyone who disagrees with her about anything, often threatening journos with legal action when they refute her claims.

How can you threaten someone with legal action for having a different opinion? Not sure what you mean here? She is a KC, I reckon she knows what she is doing regards the law.

[Stairway 2 7]

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she's also an absolute nightmare for anyone who disagrees with her about anything, often threatening journos with legal action when they refute her claims.

That's ridiculous.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Not at all. I think this is a really important piece of social policy and related legislation. I think it's better for policy if there is widespread engagement with society rather than policy being something politicians 'do' to people.

What would your "widespread engagement with society" look like?

[AgentDaleCooper]

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That's ridiculous.

It's literally true.

[He's here!]

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let me try - no, it's not.

people are concerned that it has, because the media having been cynically bringing up loads of cases NOT affected by the legislation in order to discredit the SNP. i don't personally care for the SNP at all, but i think this is what is happening. it's very similar to Corbyn - they've seen their opening, and they have the crowbars out.

I don't think it's the media that have made that question a tricky one to answer. As another poster has pointed out the Haldane ruling means there is scope for legal challenge. I don't think you'd find too many politicians queuing up to give a definitive answer now.

It's certainly notable that Scottish Labour appear to have gone into hiding in the wake of the prisons fiasco.