The Trans Rights Debate

[James310]

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absolutely zero sympathy for a rapist here, obviously - like I said, it just seemed to me that you were using 'he' as much as was possible and enjoying it, or making some kind of point of it. happy to be wrong.

I am not going to use she or her, so I would use he or him. What would you use?

[degenerated]

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According to this article Cornton Vale is due to close.


https://insidetime.org/cornton-vale-...-the-new-year/

There's a new women's national facility being built there. Most of it is built now, just a couple of buildings to go and demolition of the old one.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...l-51835727.amp

[Santa Cruz]

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There's a new women's national facility being built there. Most of it is built now, just a couple of buildings to go and demolition of the old one.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc...l-51835727.amp

Ta. Mentions the new female custody units in the original article I linked.

[archie]

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Nothing. All that happened today was the FM explained the situation. All the rest was made up nonsense.


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And yet they are in Saughton...

[Just Alf]

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You do know what a woman's prison is? Why is he being moved if he would continually be in isolation? Russellboy?

Is Cornton Vale a woman's prison? Yes. Was this rapist held in Cornton Vale? Yes.

Why do you think he is being moved?

Did you accidentally miss my earlier post where I explained what exactly had happened?

[Just Alf]

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And that's the key issue here amongst all this disassembling nonsense. In addition, the position appears to have changed on the hoof. Yesterday it was a matter for the SPS. So what happened today?

Still the SPS, they've done their assessment and assigned the prisoner to what they feel is the most appropriate facility.

[James310]

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Did you accidentally miss my earlier post where I explained what exactly had happened?

You mean your opinion on what happened, not exactly what happened. I did ignore it yes as I thought it was time to move on.

Your earlier post was not strictly true, I said he was in a woman's prison and someone replied saying "The prisoner hasn’t been placed yet" but he was placed in a woman's prison, Cornton Vale. He was in that prison. He is now in Saughton after being moved there from Cornton Vale.

But time to move on.

[Just Alf]

Should add, it's good to see all of us on this thread aligned to the Scottish Government on this and we all agree that Cornton Vale was the wrong place for the offender to be.

[Just Alf]

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You mean your opinion on what happened, not exactly what happened. I did ignore it yes as I thought it was time to move on.

Your earlier post was not strictly true, I said he was in a woman's prison and someone replied saying "The prisoner hasn’t been placed yet" but he was placed in a woman's prison, Cornton Vale. He was in that prison. He is now in Saughton after being moved there from Cornton Vale.

But time to move on.

I beg to differ.. it was exactly what happened.


Edit.. I agree, we all are thinking the process has reached the right end result, so time to move on.

[James310]

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I beg to differ.. it was exactly what happened.

I am mixing you up with another poster now, sorry.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Should add, it's good to see all of us on this thread aligned to the Scottish Government on this and we all agree that Cornton Vale was the wrong place for the offender to be.

The government only changed the decision due to uproar and it becoming a huge story. The policy before the u-turn was wrong. Katie Dolatowski shouldn't be there either but the story isn't worldwide so I guess she'll stay mixing with women

[Just Alf]

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The government only changed the decision due to uproar and it becoming a huge story. The policy before the u-turn was wrong. Katie Dolatowski shouldn't be there either but the story isn't worldwide so I guess she'll stay mixing with women

To be clear.. the SPS made the decision, the government haven't made any 'decision '

When asked Sturgeon stated earlier today that she felt it was wrong for this particular offender to be in a woman's prison but confirmed no official statement/instruction had been made to the SPS. She also agreed that fhe SPS did know of her feelings on the matter though.

[marinello59]

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To be clear.. the SPS made the decision, the government haven't made any 'decision '

When asked Sturgeon stated earlier today that she felt it was wrong for this particular offender to be in a woman's prison but confirmed no official statement/instruction had been made to the SPS. She also agreed that fhe SPS did know of her feelings on the matter though.

The key phrase there being no official instruction was given. So we can all pretend that no ‘unofficial’ pressure was applied to save Government face. That’s how politics work, smoke and mirrors.

[archie]

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Still the SPS, they've done their assessment and assigned the prisoner to what they feel is the most appropriate facility.

We don't know that at all. We know that the assessment period started. We know there was a very clear statement in the Parliament today. I suspect that wasn't the first the SPS heard of it. But I suspect the outcome is what most people think is right.

[James310]

https://twitter.com/TomSwarbrick1/st...vdpbZ4ygQ&s=19

Says Police Scotland are not recording the crimes as being committed by a man. Not sure how that works as according to the law in Scotland a woman cannot commit a rape. A bit of a mess.

The crime stats will look a bit wonky as well. I guess this is a new category as there won't be any previous women in Scotland that have been convicted of rape? Aren't crime stats used to help planning and budgets, help workout where extra safeguarding needs to be made etc. If the data is wrong it could put people at risk.

A thought for the victims who were surely victims of male violence and now seeing this being recorded as something different.

[He's here!]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64419533

'Sending Bryson to Cornton Vale was unnecessary shambles'.

[He's here!]

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The key phrase there being no official instruction was given. So we can all pretend that no ‘unofficial’ pressure was applied to save Government face. That’s how politics work, smoke and mirrors.

Indeed. Nobody seriously believes Sturgeon didn't intervene here when confronted with the public uproar.

[Andy Bee]

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-64419533

'Sending Bryson to Cornton Vale was unnecessary shambles'.

"Former Governor" I listened to the "CURRENT" Governor and the SPS policy on trans people is that they are admitted to the prison which matches the gender they identify with initially which I think is correct. They're then subject to a plethora of evaluations whilst being held away from the prison population, also correct. A decision is then made after 72hrs on where that person should be incarcerated which in this case is also correct assuming it's Saughton.

I've also listened to numerous MSM sources trying to conflate this with the GRR bill today which is complete bollox, I've also read in this thread some absolute bull**** trying to score political points and the end outcome of all this vitriol is that the transgender community is now more isolated than ever before, well done folks you've fell into Alisdair Jacks culture wars 101.

[Ozyhibby]

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"Former Governor" I listened to the "CURRENT" Governor and the SPS policy on trans people is that they are admitted to the prison which matches the gender they identify with initially which I think is correct. They're then subject to a plethora of evaluations whilst being held away from the prison population, also correct. A decision is then made after 72hrs on where that person should be incarcerated which in this case is also correct assuming it's Saughton.

I've also listened to numerous MSM sources trying to conflate this with the GRR bill today which is complete bollox, I've also read in this thread some absolute bull**** trying to score political points and the end outcome of all this vitriol is that the transgender community is now more isolated than ever before, well done folks you've fell into Alisdair Jacks culture wars 101.

Fell into it? I think some of the folk on this thread are more committed than Jack ever was.


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[Andy Bee]

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Fell into it? I think some of the folk on this thread are more committed than Jack ever was.


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I'm maybe being a wee bit generous, especially to Jack.

[He's here!]

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"Former Governor" I listened to the "CURRENT" Governor and the SPS policy on trans people is that they are admitted to the prison which matches the gender they identify with initially which I think is correct. They're then subject to a plethora of evaluations whilst being held away from the prison population, also correct. A decision is then made after 72hrs on where that person should be incarcerated which in this case is also correct assuming it's Saughton.

I've also listened to numerous MSM sources trying to conflate this with the GRR bill today which is complete bollox, I've also read in this thread some absolute bull**** trying to score political points and the end outcome of all this vitriol is that the transgender community is now more isolated than ever before, well done folks you've fell into Alisdair Jacks culture wars 101.

Nobody's done more to undermine the trans community here than Bryson. He won't be the last to try it on with this bull**** (to coin your terminology) if the SG bill were ever to become law. Listening to Sturgeon tie herself in knots avoiding having to answer whether he is a man or a woman was toe curling.

[Andy Bee]

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Nobody's done more to undermine the trans community here than Bryson. He won't be the last to try it on with this bull**** (to coin your terminology) if the SG bill were ever to become law. Listening to Sturgeon tie herself in knots avoiding having to answer whether he is a man or a woman was toe curling.

I just outlined the process, Bryson went through that process and the outcome was what should be expected, it's nothing to do with that rapist. It's all to do with the furore of this toxic trans debate and the political point scoring associated with it. Bryson is being used as a political pawn in this bull**** (my terminology) to the detriment of the trans community, of that there is no doubt and Jack is a main player in that.

[Stairway 2 7]

I don't actually believe even the SNP's most devoted cultists think there wasn't a political intervention in this case.

It's a bizarre world that she even set foot in Cornton Vale. No one is answering why Katie Dolatowski is still in a female prison. Sexual assault against a girl and beat up a male prisoner, but it's not worldwide news like it has been this week so that's OK.

[WeeRussell]

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If I don't know something, I ask in order to find out. Doesn't everyone?

Does your insight come to you fully formed?

I was unaware of details too - you can sometimes find them on here after trawling through all the obsessive, repetitive *****.

Without any detail, I was struggling to understand a poster’s insistence on asking the same straightforward question without any context re them being in isolation.

Seemed a bit like how Hibs fans who come on here to read about Hibs won’t be affected by those draining posters who spend every day on hibs.net, as they are restricted to the HG and threads about the SNP or Nicola Sturgeon.

[hibsbollah]

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Yet I keep reading here that it is right wingers who oppose the legislation. That fit's neatly in to the narrative that any opposition to the legislation is akin to fascism. The 'furries against fascism' planned protest againt a feminist meeting is Glasgow being a recent example.

Well I’ve just explained the divergence between the right wing media and the public who ‘identify’ as right wingers so I’ve covered that. If you ‘keep reading’ that it’s ONLY right wingers that oppose the legislation and you feel that’s unfair on the downtrodden right wing underclass or whatever, just call the poster who made this claim out on it, that’s another issue entirely. There’s no reason to throw about the F word at people who are trying to balance two conflicting rights and sometimes get it wrong, as in the trans/safe spaces for women dichotomy, and actual real fascists who for the first time in history currently occupy positions of power in UK government.

[Just Alf]

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We don't know that at all. We know that the assessment period started. We know there was a very clear statement in the Parliament today. I suspect that wasn't the first the SPS heard of it. But I suspect the outcome is what most people think is right.

Sorry just woke up :-)

And sorry to keep harping on.

From horses mouth it's exactly the process that happened.

And re Government involvement whilst nothing official was mandated.to the SPS I'd have even amazed.if they were unaware of the FMs thoughts.she expressed at FM questions.

[He's here!]

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I don't actually believe even the SNP's most devoted cultists think there wasn't a political intervention in this case.

It's a bizarre world that she even set foot in Cornton Vale. No one is answering why Katie Dolatowski is still in a female prison. Sexual assault against a girl and beat up a male prisoner, but it's not worldwide news like it has been this week so that's OK.

Indeed. The tiptoeing around this is absurd.

All transwomen are male.
A woman is an adult human female.

That's the most straightforward fact-based approach to adopt, particularly when it comes to rape cases.

[archie]

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Well I’ve just explained the divergence between the right wing media and the public who ‘identify’ as right wingers so I’ve covered that. If you ‘keep reading’ that it’s ONLY right wingers that oppose the legislation and you feel that’s unfair on the downtrodden right wing underclass or whatever, just call the poster who made this claim out on it, that’s another issue entirely. There’s no reason to throw about the F word at people who are trying to balance two conflicting rights and sometimes get it wrong, as in the trans/safe spaces for women dichotomy, and actual real fascists who for the first time in history currently occupy positions of power in UK government.

I'm not sure why you are thinking that I'm defending 'the downtrodden right wing underclass' whatever that is. I am,however, pushing back on the garbled analysis that appears to say anyone pushing back on a belief system is a fascist. I would go further and say your labeling of UK government as fascist is extremely sloppy. I don't think right wing views, no matter how much I disagree with them, is fascist. And I see nothing fascist about concern for womens rights.

[archie]

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Sorry just woke up :-)

And sorry to keep harping on.

From horses mouth it's exactly the process that happened.

And re Government involvement whilst nothing official was mandated.to the SPS I'd have even amazed.if they were unaware of the FMs thoughts.she expressed at FM questions.

What do you mean 'from the horses mouth'?

[hibby rae]

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I'm not sure why you are thinking that I'm defending 'the downtrodden right wing underclass' whatever that is. I am,however, pushing back on the garbled analysis that appears to say anyone pushing back on a belief system is a fascist. I would go further and say your labeling of UK government as fascist is extremely sloppy. I don't think right wing views, no matter how much I disagree with them, is fascist. And I see nothing fascist about concern for womens rights.

Tbf he didn't say the UK government were fascist, but said there are members of the government who are. And if I look at 2 out of the last 3 Home Secretaries, for example, I think a case can be made to give them that tag.