The Trans Rights Debate

[CropleyWasGod]

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I thought it was women with testicles...

I think it's probably just testicles then.

[500miles]

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It's the Life of Brian/Jesus Christ Superstar effect. Those films got huge boosts in popularity because some people didn't see them and still objected.

The cynic in me thinks that the makers are delighted at the controversy.

I'm currently watching it, and have a lot of mixed feelings about it.... anything that Julie Bindel says has me reaching for sharp objects ..... but it's a view that is entitled to be heard.

I think its telling that the easiest references we can make to the people protesting this film are to people protesting blasphemous films.

[CropleyWasGod]

Different day, different UN opinion.

BBC News - UN chief backs Scottish government's gender recognition reforms
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63993415

[archie]

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Different day, different UN opinion.

BBC News - UN chief backs Scottish government's gender recognition reforms
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63993415

In many ways this sums up the issue. The UN gender person all for it. The violence against women and girls person is opposed!

[superfurryhibby]

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Her views on female sex work.

Bindel has been researching and campaigning against prostitution since the 1970s and has written regularly about it since 1998.[39][40] While working at Leeds Metropolitan University in the 1990s, she coordinated the Kerb Crawlers Re-education Programme, a John school in the city.[39] An abolitionist, she argues strongly against efforts to decriminalise the sex trade as part of promoting "sex workers' rights".[41] Her position is that it is "inherently abusive, and a cause and a consequence of women's inequality ... a one-sided exploitative exchange rooted in male power".[42] For her book The Pimping of Prostitution: Abolishing the Sex Work Myth (2017), she interviewed 250 people in nearly 40 countries, visited brothels, and spoke to prostitutes, pimps and the police.[25]

She has been commissioned several times to write reports about the sex trade for charities and local authorities. While working for the Child and Woman Abuse Studies Unit at London Metropolitan University, she co-authored a report in 2003 on prostitution in Australia, Ireland, the Netherlands, and Sweden.[43] In 2004, she produced a report for Glasgow City Council on lap dancing in the UK.[27] In 2008, she co-wrote (with Helen Atkins) Big Brothel, a report commissioned by the POPPY Project, which examined 921 brothels in London's 33 boroughs.[44] They wrote that 85 percent of the brothels were in residential areas—nearly two-thirds in apartments and one-fifth in houses: "Wherever you are in the city, the likelihood is that buying and selling women is going on under your nose."[45]

Bindel and Atkins recruited male acquaintances to telephone the brothels for them, asking what was on offer. They telephoned only the ones advertised in local newspapers; Bindel estimated that the brothels made £86M to £209.5M a year as a result of this advertising.[45] Penetrative sex was available from £15 to £250, with an average price of £62, and two percent of the brothels offered unprotected penetrative sex for an extra £10 to £200.[44] Many of the women were from Southern or Eastern Europe and Asia.[46] One brothel offered what they said was "a Greek girl who is very, very young".[45] Bindel wrote about the findings in her Guardian column:

When Frank rang a brothel in Enfield, he could hear a baby crying in the background. When Alan called one in Southwark, he could make out the sound of a child asking for his tea. And when Mick called another to inquire about their services, he was told that he could have a "dirty Oriental bitch who will do stag nights, anal, and the rest."[45]

The Big Brothel report was criticised by 27 academics and other researchers involved in research into prostitution, who complained that the study had been conducted without ethical approval or acknowledgement of existing sources, and had been co-written by a researcher with anti-prostitution views.[47] The POPPY Project responded that the report was one they had produced independently, that they were not an academic institution, and that it was important to provide a counterbalance to the positive focus on the sex industry found in the media.[48]

[Ozyhibby]

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In many ways this sums up the issue. The UN gender person all for it. The violence against women and girls person is opposed!

Since Ireland has had this legislation for a few years now, are there any specific problems they are having with it? Not hypotheticals which seems to be all we hear in the debate in Scotland but actual problems they are experiencing?


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[archie]

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Since Ireland has had this legislation for a few years now, are there any specific problems they are having with it? Not hypotheticals which seems to be all we hear in the debate in Scotland but actual problems they are experiencing?


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Quick search throws up these:

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/to...omen-prisoners

https://gript.ie/the-editors-barbie-...cognition-act/

[He's here!]

Gender reform will be Sturgeon’s poll tax, says JK Rowling | Scotland | The Times

[Ozyhibby]

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Quick search throws up these:

https://www.lawsociety.ie/gazette/to...omen-prisoners

https://gript.ie/the-editors-barbie-...cognition-act/

First article appears to outline the solutions the Irish have found to the problem. Extra cost for the prison service right enough but it’s doable. And it’s one case in 7 years since it became law?
Has there been any cases where it has resulted in a woman being endangered? I’m not saying it couldn’t, just that it doesn’t really seem to be happening?
Men don’t really seem to need an excuse to endanger woman. They have been doing it for thousands of years without going to the bother of getting a certificate first. I would think if a male wanted access to women, then dressing up as one would reduce the likelihood of that? In fact, I bet most trans people would say that being trans reduces access to people full stop.


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[archie]

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First article appears to outline the solutions the Irish have found to the problem. Extra cost for the prison service right enough but it’s doable. And it’s one case in 7 years since it became law?
Has there been any cases where it has resulted in a woman being endangered? I’m not saying it couldn’t, just that it doesn’t really seem to be happening?
Men don’t really seem to need an excuse to endanger woman. They have been doing it for thousands of years without going to the bother of getting a certificate first. I would think if a male wanted access to women, then dressing up as one would reduce the likelihood of that? In fact, I bet most trans people would say that being trans reduces access to people full stop.


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The Barbie Kardashian case has caused uproar in Ireland. I guess the issue is how much risk is society prepared to take by putting people like them in a female prison.

[Ozyhibby]

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Gender reform will be Sturgeon’s poll tax, says JK Rowling | Scotland | The Times

That’s is complete nonsense. I couldn’t say for sure but I’m sure opposition to the poll tax was higher than 60%? Also, people cared about the poll tax. Most people in Scotland only have minimal awareness this is even happening. And the percentage of people directly affected by it is tiny. To compare it with the poll tax is a joke and make Rowling look foolish.


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[Ozyhibby]

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The Barbie Kardashian case has caused uproar in Ireland. I guess the issue is how much risk is society prepared to take by putting people like them in a female prison.

I’m sure it has but the situation is managed by the prisoner never being allowed to be alone with another prisoner. So the situation is being managed. We can’t make law based on how much outrage the press can generate.


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[archie]

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I’m sure it has but the situation is managed by the prisoner never being allowed to be alone with another prisoner. So the situation is being managed. We can’t make law based on how much outrage the press can generate.


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But we can make laws with reference to womens safety.

[Ozyhibby]

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But we can make laws with reference to womens safety.

I know, that’s why I was asking if the law had endangered any women in Ireland in the 7 years it had been law there?


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[archie]

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I know, that’s why I was asking if the law had endangered any women in Ireland in the 7 years it had been law there?


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OK - you either think the risk is acceptable or you don't. My issue with the legislation is that the definition of trans is so broad to be effectively meaningless. That make makes for poor policy and poor enforcement potential. On an anecdotal point, speaking to women in the family, who are actually very supportive to the general issue and also very liberal, they don't want to share facilities like a changing room with a biologically intact male. Why aren't they allowed a voice?

[He's here!]

Former SNP minister Ash Regan: I had to vote with my conscience and resign over gender reform bill | Scotland | The Times

Hard to imagine Regan returning to the front bench. Wouldn't be surprised if she left the SNP altogether.

As I've said before, my own concerns around this bill extend beyond the headline stories around women's safety, concerning as those are. I cannot understand why Sturgeon remains so blinkered to the dangers inherent in allowing children as young as 16 to change their legal sex, especially bearing in mind how discredited the Mermaids charity and their insistence that gender dysphoria is always an inidicator of a fixed trans identity have become. She has ignored the findings of an English senior paediatrician (Hilary Cass) who has emphasised how in many cases gender dysphoria is transient for all sorts of reasons (puberty, childhood trauma, autism, coming to terms with same sex attraction etc) and whose review has shaped a case by case approach by NHS England. As far as I can see, Sturgeon's refusal to acknowledge the Cass review is based on the implausible view that it doesn't apply to Scottish children.

[Ozyhibby]

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OK - you either think the risk is acceptable or you don't. My issue with the legislation is that the definition of trans is so broad to be effectively meaningless. That make makes for poor policy and poor enforcement potential. On an anecdotal point, speaking to women in the family, who are actually very supportive to the general issue and also very liberal, they don't want to share facilities like a changing room with a biologically intact male. Why aren't they allowed a voice?

One thing nobody is being denied is a voice. There has been a long consultation process on this.
Again, rather than anecdotes, is there any evidence of problems in changing rooms in Ireland? Are women avoiding gyms? Have they stopped going to pubs in case a trans woman is in the toilets?
People’s fears can be very irrational. Doesn’t mean they are not real but we can’t make law based on them. In America when they started mixing the schools there was a massive amount of fear in the white community about the dangers this would bring. Should those fears have been taken into account? I would say no.


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[archie]

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One thing nobody is being denied is a voice. There has been a long consultation process on this.
Again, rather than anecdotes, is there any evidence of problems in changing rooms in Ireland? Are women avoiding gyms? Have they stopped going to pubs in case a trans woman is in the toilets?
People’s fears can be very irrational. Doesn’t mean they are not real but we can’t make law based on them. In America when they started mixing the schools there was a massive amount of fear in the white community about the dangers this would bring. Should those fears have been taken into account? I would say no.


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So in summary:
- you had your chance in the consultation
- fears are irrational
- Concerns are akin to racism.

Is that it?

[Ozyhibby]

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So in summary:
- you had your chance in the consultation
- fears are irrational
- Concerns are akin to racism.

Is that it?

In my defence, I did ask if there was any real evidence from a neighbouring country who have had this policy for 7 years?


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[Stairway 2 7]

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One thing nobody is being denied is a voice. There has been a long consultation process on this.
Again, rather than anecdotes, is there any evidence of problems in changing rooms in Ireland? Are women avoiding gyms? Have they stopped going to pubs in case a trans woman is in the toilets?
People’s fears can be very irrational. Doesn’t mean they are not real but we can’t make law based on them. In America when they started mixing the schools there was a massive amount of fear in the white community about the dangers this would bring. Should those fears have been taken into account? I would say no.


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Does it need to be a full rape
What about women not wanting to see a cock in their changing room. You can hit out with the nonsense cliche that this changes nothing in the law there but we all now that's pish. There will be no way to say if someone is trans they will literally be a women, even though the vast majority keep their *****.

Maybe I'm different as I have daughters who are very Liberal politically, but simply don't want *****'s near them when they are naked in the gym or any female only.

Many trans women now chose to have beards, that could be scary to see in the toilets for a rape victim.

It's downright misogyny men telling women what is right and wrong

[Ozyhibby]

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Does it need to be a full rape
What about women not wanting to see a cock in their changing room. You can hit out with the nonsense cliche that this changes nothing in the law there but we all now that's pish. There will be no way to say if someone is trans they will literally be a women, even though the vast majority keep their *****.

Maybe I'm different as I have daughters who are very Liberal politically, but simply don't want *****'s near them when they are naked in the gym or any female only.

Many trans women now chose to have beards, that could be scary to see in the toilets for a rape victim.

It's downright misogyny men telling women what is right and wrong

All I’m asking is if this has been a problem in Ireland? You have given hypotheticals?


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[Stairway 2 7]

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So in summary:
- you had your chance in the consultation
- fears are irrational
- Concerns are akin to racism.

Is that it?

The trying to mix it with racism is utterly disgusting imo. Men telling rape victims or people with disabilities that have complained that they are bigoted, is also vile

[Stairway 2 7]

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All I’m asking is if this has been a problem in Ireland? You have given hypotheticals?


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How's it hypothetical. Most females polled don't want *****'s in the changing room. Females I know don't want it. You are asking for full on rapes.

Father knows best though

[Ozyhibby]

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How's it hypothetical. Most females polled don't want *****'s in the changing room. Females I know don't want it. You are asking for full on rapes.

Father knows best though

Has this been a problem in Ireland?


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[Stairway 2 7]

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Has this been a problem in Ireland?


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How the hell would we get that information, it's utterly ridiculous and you know it. In the uk females don't want biological males in female spaces, that's all that matters. Or are you telling the females they are wrong

[Moulin Yarns]

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Does it need to be a full rape
What about women not wanting to see a cock in their changing room. You can hit out with the nonsense cliche that this changes nothing in the law there but we all now that's pish. There will be no way to say if someone is trans they will literally be a women, even though the vast majority keep their *****.

Maybe I'm different as I have daughters who are very Liberal politically, but simply don't want *****'s near them when they are naked in the gym or any female only.

Many trans women now chose to have beards, that could be scary to see in the toilets for a rape victim.

It's downright misogyny men telling women what is right and wrong

Trans women with beards? 😂😂😂

I think you have mixed up drag artists with real trans women.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Trans women with beards? 😂😂😂

I think you have mixed up drag artists with real trans women.

I'm really not, your laughing faces would be seen as quite bigoted by some nowadays. It's a common trend now

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.teenvogue.com/story/how-my-beard-affects-my-gender-identity-as-a-trans-femme/amp

[archie]

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Has this been a problem in Ireland?


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https://unherd.com/2021/07/how-the-t...ooled-ireland/

[ronaldo7]

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The Barbie Kardashian case has caused uproar in Ireland. I guess the issue is how much risk is society prepared to take by putting people like them in a female prison.

Uproar, really?

The petition to remove her from limericks prison got to 1817 signatures.

[Ozyhibby]

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https://unherd.com/2021/07/how-the-t...ooled-ireland/

So that’s a no then?


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