The Trans Rights Debate

[Keith_M]

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A friend of a colleague of mine has just been elected to Brazil's congress as one of its first two transgender members.

http://https://www.reuters.com/world...ss-2022-10-05/

Her v Bolsonaro?

...or Ballsonaro?

[He's here!]

Nicola's a 'real' feminist...not like that pretend one JKR:

'Real feminist' Nicola Sturgeon hits back at JK Rowling | The Spectator

[Pretty Boy]

I've looked for some hard figures on this and they don't seem easy to come by so maybe someone on here can point me in the right direction or indeed knows the answer.

Is there a comparable number of people born female/'assigned' female at birth who wish to identify as men or undergo full transition as there is the opposite way around? This seems a debate absolutely dominated by male to female ID and transition and thus a debate about what constitutes a woman. Google seems to throw up considerably more high profile trans women than men, it's perhaps my own ignorance but Elliot Page is the only person I could name of the top of my head.

When accusations of misogyny are thrown about it would be interesting to know if there is an equilibrium around this that isn't represented by the debate.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I've looked for some hard figures on this and they don't seem easy to come by so maybe someone on here can point me in the right direction or indeed knows the answer.

Is there a comparable number of people born female/'assigned' female at birth who wish to identify as men or undergo full transition as there is the opposite way around? This seems a debate absolutely dominated by male to female ID and transition and thus a debate about what constitutes a woman. Google seems to throw up considerably more high profile trans women than men, it's perhaps my own ignorance but Elliot Page is the only person I could name of the top of my head.

When accusations of misogyny are thrown about it would be interesting to know if there is an equilibrium around this that isn't represented by the debate.

This is the only official document I could find.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...-factsheet.pdf

"How many trans people are there? We don't know". It follows from that that there will be no gender split available.

I would argue that there shouldn't be any figures available. It's no-one's business IMO. That said, I don't know if the Census asks questions like that... anyone?

The noise tells us that it's mainly M-F, and that's my own anecdotal experience. But I doubt that we can know with any certainty.

[Moulin Yarns]

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I've looked for some hard figures on this and they don't seem easy to come by so maybe someone on here can point me in the right direction or indeed knows the answer.

Is there a comparable number of people born female/'assigned' female at birth who wish to identify as men or undergo full transition as there is the opposite way around? This seems a debate absolutely dominated by male to female ID and transition and thus a debate about what constitutes a woman. Google seems to throw up considerably more high profile trans women than men, it's perhaps my own ignorance but Elliot Page is the only person I could name of the top of my head.

When accusations of misogyny are thrown about it would be interesting to know if there is an equilibrium around this that isn't represented by the debate.

I know of a trans man who lives in Fife who is currently going through treatment and is due for top surgery before the end of the year. His name is jude and he was born Amy on the South Coast of England.

[147lothian]

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Excellent post.

Patrick Harvie has previously stated that women who believe sex matters are akin to racists and heads a party whose policy is that anyone who says they are a woman literally is one - something, as you say, that the proposed reform of the GRA will effectively make a legal reality. Like you, the implications of this and the vagueness it builds in concern me a great deal.

I see Nicola Sturgeon has tried to pour cold water on such concerns in response to Rowling's criticism and I suspect she hopes that very vagueness will prevent this issue becoming a hotter potato than it currently is.

The implications for woman's sport and woman's safety have not been thought through in the GRA because what it would mean is that a man can identify as a woman without a doctor's certificate to show that he/she has a mental disorder ie gender dysphoria and enter woman's sport or womans spaces, after three months whereas it would have previously taken two years.

The main reason I think this is a bad idea has nothing to do with actual trans people, it's the way that it could be exploited by men who wish women harm gaining access to woman only spaces where women are vulnerable like prison's etc

[archie]

https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/st...93482806747136

[He's here!]

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https://twitter.com/holyroodmandy/st...93482806747136

That's a well-written piece.

[CropleyWasGod]

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The implications for woman's sport and woman's safety have not been thought through in the GRA because what it would mean is that a man can identify as a woman without a doctor's certificate to show that he/she has a mental disorder ie gender dysphoria and enter woman's sport or womans spaces, after three months whereas it would have previously taken two years.

The main reason I think this is a bad idea has nothing to do with actual trans people, it's the way that it could be exploited by men who wish women harm gaining access to woman only spaces where women are vulnerable like prison's etc

I know it's been said a few times on this thread, but it's worth repeating.

The GRA does not impact access to women-only spaces. That is already restricted by the Equality Act.

[James310]

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I know it's been said a few times on this thread, but it's worth repeating.

The GRA does not impact access to women-only spaces. That is already restricted by the Equality Act.

But isn't a big concern after the bill you can become a woman much easier, basically after 3 months anyone can become a woman if they choose, so by default they have access to these spaces?

[CropleyWasGod]

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But isn't a big concern after the bill you can become a woman much easier, basically after 3 months anyone can become a woman if they choose, so by default they have access to these spaces?

https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/gender-recognition-act-reform-2022/gra-faq/

[Stairway 2 7]

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https://www.scottishtrans.org/our-work/gender-recognition-act-reform-2022/gra-faq/

Trans activists say it doesn't change the equality act. Feminist groups are saying in the real world, if you can legally change your sex on your passport ect there is no way for a company to check your biological sex

https://fairplayforwomen.com/gra_equality-act/

[archie]

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Trans activists say it doesn't change the equality act. Feminist groups are saying in the real world, if you can legally change your sex on your passport ect there is no way for a company to check your biological sex

https://fairplayforwomen.com/gra_equality-act/

It also strips out any process that previously was required.

[147lothian]

Demi Minor, the transwomen Ie man who identifies as a woman, who got two women pregnant in a woman only prison in New Jersey has been transferred back to a male prison and will be eligible for parole in 2037.

http://nypost.com/2022/08/05/trans-p...ated-two-women

[Stairway 2 7]

No sure he'll last long as an snp equality officer

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...-beat-28189613

[superfurryhibby]

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No sure he'll last long as an snp equality officer

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...-beat-28189613

"An SNP equalities officer has apologised for a series of social media outbursts including one threatening violence against women. In now deleted posts, Cameron Downing, 23, said he wanted to “beat the f*** out of some terfs and transphobes”.

In another, he claimed: “I f****** hate terfs and transphobes with such a passion they make me want to SCREAM!” Terf – meaning trans-exclusionary radical feminist – is a derogatory term used against women who do not recognise the gender identity of trans women.

Downing has been an equalities officer for the SNP’s London branch since August 2022 and previously worked in the same role in 2021. When confronted about the Twitter posts, he said: “I apologise for these tweets and for any offence caused to the LGBTQ+ community and have long since deleted them.”

To think some on here have criticised JK Rowling for her tweets supporting women's rights, the above is an outrageous statement and shows the mentality of some of the bams involved in this self-identification mess

[KWJ]

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I've looked for some hard figures on this and they don't seem easy to come by so maybe someone on here can point me in the right direction or indeed knows the answer.

Is there a comparable number of people born female/'assigned' female at birth who wish to identify as men or undergo full transition as there is the opposite way around? This seems a debate absolutely dominated by male to female ID and transition and thus a debate about what constitutes a woman. Google seems to throw up considerably more high profile trans women than men, it's perhaps my own ignorance but Elliot Page is the only person I could name of the top of my head.

When accusations of misogyny are thrown about it would be interesting to know if there is an equilibrium around this that isn't represented by the debate.

I would imagine they are much higher than most people would think. It's natural to have a unconscious stereotype or bias on what comes to mind when thinking of transgender people. I reckon we've all probably interacted with a good number of trans people, regularly, without realising it. Many trans people just want to get on with their life without being put under the microscope or being thrust on stage.

Terms like people with a cervix isn't meant to alienate women from birth but instead be inclusive to transmen.

[superfurryhibby]

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I would imagine they are much higher than most people would think. It's natural to have a unconscious stereotype or bias on what comes to mind when thinking of transgender people. I reckon we've all probably interacted with a good number of trans people, regularly, without realising it. Many trans people just want to get on with their life without being put under the microscope or being thrust on stage.

Terms like people with a cervix isn't meant to alienate women from birth but instead be inclusive to transmen.

Without wishing to state the obvious, how about just calling them women?

[KWJ]

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Without wishing to state the obvious, how about just calling them women?

Because if you say all women require cervical screening you're not including everybody who requires cervical screening.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Because if you say all women require cervical screening you're not including everybody who requires cervical screening.

I think the 0.001% of the population will realise they still need to go. There is so little you could target them individually, rather than delete the word woman from use

[KWJ]

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I think the 0.001% of the population will realise they still need to go. There is so little you could target them individually, rather than delete the word woman from use

Using another term either instead of or alongside woman, is a far cry from deleting it from use. Not that it'd be appropriate even if it was such a small number but it'll be a helluva lot more than that.

[Stairway 2 7]

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Using another term either instead of or alongside woman, is a far cry from deleting it from use. Not that it'd be appropriate even if it was such a small number but it'll be a helluva lot more than that.

Using a term instead is deleting it. Men and people with cervixes isn't men and women. But the point still stands, I'm sure they know they need to still go for cervix screening. If they don't something has gone wrong with the information they are given

[superfurryhibby]

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Because if you say all women require cervical screening you're not including everybody who requires cervical screening.

I'm tired so perhaps missing the obvious, but who else has a cervix aside from woman?

[CropleyWasGod]

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I'm tired so perhaps missing the obvious, but who else has a cervix aside from woman?

Trans men and non-binary people who haven't had their cervix removed.

[KWJ]

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Using a term instead is deleting it. Men and people with cervixes isn't men and women. But the point still stands, I'm sure they know they need to still go for cervix screening. If they don't something has gone wrong with the information they are given

Apologies, I missed saying another or additional term with woman for this instance, isn't deleting it. I think everyone who requires screening of whatever kind is probably aware they should get it but it's good for everyone to receive that general reminder and how important it can be, and through a variety of communication methods.

"Men and people with cervixes isn't men and women"

Obviously, but why complicate it by saying women and/or people with cervixes?

[147lothian]

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Trans men and non-binary people who haven't had their cervix removed.

This doesn't get away from the fact that sex is binary. That there are only two sexes, men and woman and that it is only women that require cervical screening tests.

[KWJ]

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This doesn't get away from the fact that sex is binary. That there are only two sexes, men and woman and that it is only women that require cervical screening tests.

Well, that's the whole debate isn't it. You don't believe or acknowledge transgender or non-binary while others will say you can identify differently to the gender you were assigned at birth.

[147lothian]

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Well, that's the whole debate isn't it. You don't believe or acknowledge transgender or non-binary while others will say you can identify differently to the gender you were assigned at birth.

People can identify as they like. This doesn't get away from the fact that it is only woman who require cervical screening tests. As in adult human female. A woman is not an identity category to be picked up and put down as you see fit, it's a reality of biological sex.

[superfurryhibby]

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Trans men and non-binary people who haven't had their cervix removed.

So, mostly people who self-identify (as I assume people who have actually had surgery will have had the cervix and womb removed, alongside other vestiges of their former gender) or people who prefer not to acknowledge gender, but who have cervix's?

In the circumstances, I feel the use of the term "women" is very much preferable to any other.

[Pretty Boy]

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So, mostly people who self-identify (as I assume people who have actually had surgery will have had the cervix and womb removed, alongside other vestiges of their former gender) or people who prefer not to acknowledge gender, but who have cervix's?

In the circumstances, I feel the use of the term "women" is very much preferable to any other.

It's not really related but I was ****ed off recently when I went to an appointment with my wife and son and the doctor kept referring to me as the 2nd parent and occasionally co parent.

Firstly I'm my son's dad, secondly I'm not a 2nd parent. Both my wife and I are active in our children's upbringing in a variety of ways. I get that assumptions are off the table now but just ****ing ask people what they want to be called. Is it really all that perjorative to ask someone do you want to be referred to as mother, father or a co parent? Or simply 'what's your relationship to the child?' In the grand scheme of things it's not that big a deal but it seems in an attempt to be inclusive there's an inadvertent consequence that sees people who just want to be dad not called as such. I'm sure my view is grossly heteronormative or something but sorry I'm a dad and would rather just be called as such.

By the way I have no issue with children being raised with 2 mums, 2 dad's, non binary parents, a single parent, co habiting co parents or just about any other arrangement but it's not my situation so just establish that and act accordingly rather than use daft terms like '2nd parent'.