The Trans Rights Debate

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Does she say that she doesn't want to compete with trans athletes or not?

Does she say that it's unfair to female athletes?

Does she say that it's unfair on trans athletes?


I think she is more an authority on the subject than you or I.

She says she wants to play if it's fair and there is a clear biological advantage to people who went through puberty as a male.

[Sergio sledge]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Female athletes feel let down by their sports bodies and want to compete with trans athletes.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/61157886


Interesting that she feels her medals are diminished because women's sports are considered lesser.

She says that her medals are diminished because the governing bodies are telling her that trans females have no physical advantage which makes the implication that female athletes have to compete in a separate category because they don't try hard enough.

"I read this and hear that my world titles, my Olympic medals, and the champions jerseys I have at home, were all won in a category of people who simply don't try as hard as the men.

That losing to male androgenisation is not about biology, but mindset. They are wrong.

The retained advantage of people who have gone through male puberty in strength, stamina, and physique, with or without testosterone suppression, has been well documented."

She wants to compete with trans athletes with one caveat,

I'd like us all to continue welcoming trans athletes into our clubs, our training sessions, and our races. But I'd like us to do all this without sacrificing one of the foundational pillars of sport: fairness."

I don't see how the two things she says are compatible with the argument that trans women should be allowed to compete in the female category in sports.

[Moulin Yarns]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

She says that her medals are diminished because the governing bodies are telling her that trans females have no physical advantage which makes the implication that female athletes have to compete in a separate category because they don't try hard enough.

"I read this and hear that my world titles, my Olympic medals, and the champions jerseys I have at home, were all won in a category of people who simply don't try as hard as the men.

That losing to male androgenisation is not about biology, but mindset. They are wrong.

The retained advantage of people who have gone through male puberty in strength, stamina, and physique, with or without testosterone suppression, has been well documented."

She wants to compete with trans athletes with one caveat,

I'd like us all to continue welcoming trans athletes into our clubs, our training sessions, and our races. But I'd like us to do all this without sacrificing one of the foundational pillars of sport: fairness."

I don't see how the two things she says are compatible with the argument that trans women should be allowed to compete in the female category in sports.

It's possible that the various sports governing bodies are already looking into the introduction of a calculator for fairness for events, I don't know, but there are already tools to compare performances across ages and sex. The only thing missing is 2 categories for trans men and women.


http://www.mastersathletics.net/index.php?id=2595


Something like this could be adapted to include the trans community.

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It's possible that the various sports governing bodies are already looking into the introduction of a calculator for fairness for events, I don't know, but there are already tools to compare performances across ages and sex. The only thing missing is 2 categories for trans men and women.


http://www.mastersathletics.net/index.php?id=2595


Something like this could be adapted to include the trans community.

If there was an 100 metre sprint I doubt the trans athletes would be happy starting 10 metres back or whatever. Surely you just make the male categories an open category.

[LewysGot2]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If there was an 100 metre sprint I doubt the trans athletes would be happy starting 10 metres back or whatever. Surely you just make the male categories an open category.

Yes. Whereas the women's category is currently the open one - trans men and trans women both opting for it. That says a lot in itself.

Nobody is stopping trans athletes from taking part in sport but inclusion of male bodied athletes in female sport will impact on female participation. Inclusion or fairness (and for who because there's a definite conflict here)...that's the question.

[LewysGot2]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

She says that her medals are diminished because the governing bodies are telling her that trans females have no physical advantage which makes the implication that female athletes have to compete in a separate category because they don't try hard enough.

"I read this and hear that my world titles, my Olympic medals, and the champions jerseys I have at home, were all won in a category of people who simply don't try as hard as the men.

That losing to male androgenisation is not about biology, but mindset. They are wrong.

The retained advantage of people who have gone through male puberty in strength, stamina, and physique, with or without testosterone suppression, has been well documented."

She wants to compete with trans athletes with one caveat,

I'd like us all to continue welcoming trans athletes into our clubs, our training sessions, and our races. But I'd like us to do all this without sacrificing one of the foundational pillars of sport: fairness."

I don't see how the two things she says are compatible with the argument that trans women should be allowed to compete in the female category in sports.

She could be meaning trans men in female sport as opposed to trans women? They are far more legitimate competition for her as they are biologically female.

[Moulin Yarns]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If there was an 100 metre sprint I doubt the trans athletes would be happy starting 10 metres back or whatever. Surely you just make the male categories an open category.

Nobody mentioned starting 10m or whatever back. This isn't the powderhall new year sprint 😂😂😂

I do Parkrun and my age grade percentage is just above 50% older women with the same time get a higher age grade than me, also a woman who is the same age as me and the same time gets a higher percentage. This is a universally used format and could easily be adapted for any event.


It really frustrates me that people only want to see the problems and not think about the possible solutions.

[LewysGot2]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Nobody mentioned starting 10m or whatever back. This isn't the powderhall new year sprint 😂😂😂

I do Parkrun and my age grade percentage is just above 50% older women with the same time get a higher age grade than me, also a woman who is the same age as me and the same time gets a higher percentage. This is a universally used format and could easily be adapted for any event.


It really frustrates me that people only want to see the problems and not think about the possible solutions.

Sorry for my ignorance on park running but is it competitive? I thought it was just fun running.

Also, not sure how age is factored in? Can you expand? Thanks.

There is obvious concern about middle aged male bodied athletes being still advantaged enough to compete at elite level female sport. How does age get factored into park running? Thanks in anticipation 👍

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Nobody mentioned starting 10m or whatever back. This isn't the powderhall new year sprint 😂😂😂

I do Parkrun and my age grade percentage is just above 50% older women with the same time get a higher age grade than me, also a woman who is the same age as me and the same time gets a higher percentage. This is a universally used format and could easily be adapted for any event.


It really frustrates me that people only want to see the problems and not think about the possible solutions.

Your being hard work for the sake of it. It's still the same, women loses time or trans women has time added. Trans women won't want that. It also only works for races or distance. What about football, rugby, mma, boxing, tennis ect ect. Even in say 400 meters, all the excitement is gone as you have to wait until post race calculations.

It really frustrates me when people ignore the obvious problems and biological differences. Can I ask you, would you be happy for a trans women to fight a woman in mma

[LewysGot2]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Your being hard work for the sake of it. It's still the same, women loses time or trans women has time added. Trans women won't want that. It also only works for races or distance. What about football, rugby, mma, boxing, tennis ect ect. Even in say 400 meters, all the excitement is gone as you have to wait until post race calculations.

It really frustrates me when people ignore the obvious problems and biological differences. Can I ask you, would you be happy for a trans women to fight a woman in mma

There are definitely sports where full inclusion is possible- horse 🐎 based events like racing, show jumping 3 day eventing etc. Also things like driving based sports, pool, snooker and darts. All of these places it already happens. But one size definitely doesn't fit all across sports.

[147lothian]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Does this also apply to transsexual women?

Yes, biological sex is immutable

[Moulin Yarns]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Your being hard work for the sake of it. It's still the same, women loses time or trans women has time added. Trans women won't want that. It also only works for races or distance. What about football, rugby, mma, boxing, tennis ect ect. Even in say 400 meters, all the excitement is gone as you have to wait until post race calculations.

It really frustrates me when people ignore the obvious problems and biological differences. Can I ask you, would you be happy for a trans women to fight a woman in mma

It is not time that is added in the age range system!

https://www.parkrun.org.uk/faskallyf...tegoryrecords/

These are the fastest times for each age range at my local Parkrun. As anyone can run there needs to be a way of comparing times taken over the 5km course. The fastest time is 17mins 28 seconds by a male between 30 and 34 which equates to an age grade of 74.05%, but a woman between 35 and 39 who ran a time of 18mins 20 seconds gets an age grade of 81.55% which would put her in a final position ahead of the man.

sorting the results by age grade has a woman of 60 to 64 at the top on an age grade of 82.44%. You don't need to apply any handicap system to get the adjusted positions because world athletics has already set this up.

Obviously it only works in individual sports, but the other sports mentioned, cycling and swimming, for example could use a similar system.

For those that want to know more.


https://support.parkrun.com/hc/en-us...s-age-grading-


I've no idea what mma is, I can't stand the use of acronyms online as if everyone knows what you are talking about!



EDIT: Swimming has something similar.

https://www.swimming.org/masters/masters-swimming-age-adjustment/

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It is not time that is added in the age range system!

https://www.parkrun.org.uk/faskallyf...tegoryrecords/

These are the fastest times for each age range at my local Parkrun. As anyone can run there needs to be a way of comparing times taken over the 5km course. The fastest time is 17mins 28 seconds by a male between 30 and 34 which equates to an age grade of 74.05%, but a woman between 35 and 39 who ran a time of 18mins 20 seconds gets an age grade of 81.55% which would put her in a final position ahead of the man.

sorting the results by age grade has a woman of 60 to 64 at the top on an age grade of 82.44%. You don't need to apply any handicap system to get the adjusted positions because world athletics has already set this up.

Obviously it only works in individual sports, but the other sports mentioned, cycling and swimming, for example could use a similar system.

For those that want to know more.


https://support.parkrun.com/hc/en-us...s-age-grading-


I've no idea what mma is, I can't stand the use of acronyms online as if everyone knows what you are talking about!



EDIT: Swimming has something similar.

https://www.swimming.org/masters/masters-swimming-age-adjustment/

It's literally as I said, time adjusted. We're only talking about elite level here as no one cares about the over 40s friendly competitions.

So if watching the female 100m final the one that crosses the line first might not win as higher %, that's a nonsense. Also is a 25 year old trans female compared with male or female times. It simply doesn't work. Trans women want to compete against females with no caveats, many people think this is unfair.

Mma is one of the biggest sports in the world now by viewing figures. How about boxing , do you think it's OK for a trans women to fight a biological woman

[Moulin Yarns]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It's literally as I said, time adjusted. We're only talking about elite level here as no one cares about the over 40s friendly competitions.

So if watching the female 100m final the one that crosses the line first might not win as higher %, that's a nonsense. Also is a 25 year old trans female compared with male or female times. It simply doesn't work. Trans women want to compete against females with no caveats, many people think this is unfair.

Mma is one of the biggest sports in the world now by viewing figures. How about boxing , do you think it's OK for a trans women to fight a biological woman

As far as I'm aware, I'm the only one looking for a solution to the problem of fairness, and having given an example all you can do is dismiss it.

As I see it, the biological female will be able to win against a trans (biological male) athlete by using a similar system to the age grading if they compete together. Nobody would have to wait for the result as the technology exists to make it possible for real-time results to be available. I suppose there is an element of handicap insomuch as the trans athletes know they have to be a certain amount faster than the female athletes.

I'm pretty sure that I asked how many elite trans sports people there were and don't think I ever got an answer. Very few I imagine.

If you have a better idea then I'm happy to hear it. But all I can see is negativity.

Martial arts and boxing are things I have no interest in so I'll leave that to others, but as we have been discussing athletics, cycling and swimming up to now I'll leave it to others to think about the violent sports.

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

As far as I'm aware, I'm the only one looking for a solution to the problem of fairness, and having given an example all you can do is dismiss it.

As I see it, the biological female will be able to win against a trans (biological male) athlete by using a similar system to the age grading if they compete together. Nobody would have to wait for the result as the technology exists to make it possible for real-time results to be available. I suppose there is an element of handicap insomuch as the trans athletes know they have to be a certain amount faster than the female athletes.

I'm pretty sure that I asked how many elite trans sports people there were and don't think I ever got an answer. Very few I imagine.

If you have a better idea then I'm happy to hear it. But all I can see is negativity.

Martial arts and boxing are things I have no interest in so I'll leave that to others, but as we have been discussing athletics, cycling and swimming up to now I'll leave it to others to think about the violent sports.

There is an easier way as many of us have said. Make the mens competitions open to all, the trans athletes if they are good will still succeed. Women have a hard time as it is getting recognition in sport, they don't need records taken away from them and places in teams.

You can easily talk about sports your not interested in. Do you think it's right for trans women to fight women. Its one of the biggest issues in trans sport right now, or deflect from a tough question

[Moulin Yarns]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

There is an easier way as many of us have said. Make the mens competitions open to all, the trans athletes if they are good will still succeed. Women have a hard time as it is getting recognition in sport, they don't need records taken away from them and places in teams.

You can easily talk about sports your not interested in. Do you think it's right for trans women to fight women. Its one of the biggest issues in trans sport right now, or deflect from a tough question

How many trans boxers or martial arts fighters are there? First time I've heard that it's one of the biggest issues!

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

How many trans boxers or martial arts fighters are there? First time I've heard that it's one of the biggest issues!

mma is one of the biggest sports brands in the world, its events watched by tens of millions each week.

Fallon fox was borne a male had a wife and kid joined the marines, at 30 he decided to transition to female.

She took up mma and whilst technically awful her strength was huge. She came out as trans after her second fight

In one fight She broke a women's orbital bone broke her nose and caused her to need staples, after it she said

Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch ..."

Fox herself said she was like Jackie Robinson and doing for trans that he did for blacks. She was banned in many states although florida allowed her fights. She says anyone that says she shouldn't fight is a transphobe.

She likes the fact that she was allowed to punch terms
Fallon Fox
@FallonFox
·
Apr 3
There’s been three times where I’ve punched a TERF in the face. I think I hold the record. 🏆 I’m the most based trans person on earth. 😂
#MMA #DontHate #TotallyLegal #TotallyWorthIt

Alana McLaughlin was also all over the news as she is trans and is fighting women
https://www.sportbible.com/other/mma-news-transgender-mma-fighter-wins-her-debut-after-choking-out-opponent-20210912.amp.html

[superfurryhibby]

Trans sports and participation is the least of my concerns in all of this discussion.

[superfurryhibby]

PHD student loses her case against Bristol University after she accused the University of not doing enough to protect her from threats of harm from Trans activist students.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...e65d5404300e29

"
Generally, it is not for me in this case to pass judgment on the acceptability of the things said and done and whether the line beyond acceptable free speech was crossed, but I do observe that the threat or use of violence such as the threat of throwing eggs or a punch obviously crosses that line and amounts to abhorrent and deplorable conduct,” he said.

“The university accepts that Ms Rosario Sanchez was the victim of unacceptable behaviour, particularly in the form of AA’s threat of violence.

“However, it was apparent in evidence that Ms Rosario Sanchez perceived behaviour as unacceptable to her which may nonetheless be permissible in the form of free speech – albeit offensive and rude – such as the use of the acronym terf.”

But he said Ms Rosario Sanchez “was not carefully informed and guided” about the disciplinary process and the information was delivered “in somewhat piecemeal fashion”.

He added: “Ms Rosario Sanchez’s complaints could have been progressed in a much better fashion, and this has already been recognised by the university, but there is no evidence of any malice on the part of any member of staff of the university towards Ms Rosario Sanchez and there is no evidence to support any inference of a strategy to close Ms Rosario Sanchez down rather than AA.”

It's interesting to see that part of the Judge's narrative mentions her perception of what is unacceptable behaviour and conflict with the right of freedom of speech.

I can't help wondering what the response would be from the judiciary if it were opponents of changes to Gender Recognition Act facing proceedings?

[Moulin Yarns]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

mma is one of the biggest sports brands in the world, its events watched by tens of millions each week.

Fallon fox was borne a male had a wife and kid joined the marines, at 30 he decided to transition to female.

She took up mma and whilst technically awful her strength was huge. She came out as trans after her second fight

In one fight She broke a women's orbital bone broke her nose and caused her to need staples, after it she said

Brents took to social media to convey her thoughts on the experience of fighting Fox: "I've fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can't answer whether it's because she was born a man or not because I'm not a doctor. I can only say, I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right," she stated. "Her grip was different, I could usually move around in the clinch against other females but couldn't move at all in Fox's clinch ..."

Fox herself said she was like Jackie Robinson and doing for trans that he did for blacks. She was banned in many states although florida allowed her fights. She says anyone that says she shouldn't fight is a transphobe.

She likes the fact that she was allowed to punch terms
Fallon Fox
@FallonFox
·
Apr 3
There’s been three times where I’ve punched a TERF in the face. I think I hold the record. 🏆 I’m the most based trans person on earth. 😂
#MMA #DontHate #TotallyLegal #TotallyWorthIt

Alana McLaughlin was also all over the news as she is trans and is fighting women
https://www.sportbible.com/other/mma-news-transgender-mma-fighter-wins-her-debut-after-choking-out-opponent-20210912.amp.html

As always there are two sides to every story


https://www.outsports.com/2021/2/22/22296155/fallon-fox-trans-mma-fighter-lie-inclusion-misleading

Then there is the swimmer Lia Thomas

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-data-b2049615.html

https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/6/22867761/lia-thomas-penn-swimming-trans-truth-myth


And of course you have the trans men, who are obviously incapable of competing with cis men.


https://www.outsports.com/2020/6/21/21294667/30-moments-of-pride-pat-manuel-becomes-first-transgender-boxing-pride-lgbt-history

[Moulin Yarns]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Trans sports and participation is the least of my concerns in all of this discussion.

Agreed. It's getting a disproportionate amount of time.

Of course, if trans women are required to participate in mens events then there is the other problem that is getting a disproportionate amount of time is the changing room issue.

[Since90+2]

Trans women should not be fighting woman in boxing / MMA or any combat sport. That is plainly obvious.

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

As always there are two sides to every story


https://www.outsports.com/2021/2/22/22296155/fallon-fox-trans-mma-fighter-lie-inclusion-misleading

Then there is the swimmer Lia Thomas

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-data-b2049615.html

https://www.outsports.com/trans/2022/1/6/22867761/lia-thomas-penn-swimming-trans-truth-myth


And of course you have the trans men, who are obviously incapable of competing with cis men.


https://www.outsports.com/2020/6/21/21294667/30-moments-of-pride-pat-manuel-becomes-first-transgender-boxing-pride-lgbt-history

Did you read that fallon fox article 😆 ridiculous. She didn't break her scull but did break orbital bone and she needed staples in her head. This is a female against an ex marine who was a man at 30. Men have larger bone density, thicker joints and are just stronger. The woman who thought her said no woman is as strong as her.

You still didn't say if trans women should fight women.

So your only reason trans women couldn't go in an open male category is the changing rooms for you?

[Moulin Yarns]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Did you read that fallon fox article �� ridiculous. She didn't break her scull but did break orbital bone and she needed staples in her head. This is a female against an ex marine who was a man at 30. Men have larger bone density, thicker joints and are just stronger. The woman who thought her said no woman is as strong as her.

You still didn't say if trans women should fight women.

So your only reason trans women couldn't go in an open male category is the changing rooms for you?

All about opinions. All trans have rights which you seem to want to deny them.

A fairly regular occurrance in the sport from what I've been able to find out, regardless of gender!

I've also said I don't follow any violent sport. Why would you??? So I have no opinion on fighting.

[LewysGot2]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Agreed. It's getting a disproportionate amount of time.

Of course, if trans women are required to participate in mens events then there is the other problem that is getting a disproportionate amount of time is the changing room issue.

How much is a proportionate amount of time? Its easy for anyone male to feel unaffected by the impact of it all and therefore possibly it's disproportionate.

Why should any biological female be placed in a position where she has to change in the same space as a fully intact biological male? Or share a medical ward with male strangers? Folk may not have daughters or partners or sisters but we all have mothers. If we're happy that our mother would be put in any of these positions I'd honestly question that. The right to dignity, sense of feeling safe, modesty (if that matters) or whatever is not ours to give away. It's not even the right of females who aren't bothered to give away either tobe honest.


If transwomen who are fully intact males, like Lia Thomas, had to change with other fully intact males it's surely not the same as them changing in a room of biological females?

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

All about opinions. All trans have rights which you seem to want to deny them.

A fairly regular occurrance in the sport from what I've been able to find out, regardless of gender!

I've also said I don't follow any violent sport. Why would you??? So I have no opinion on fighting.

I want trans to have every legal right with a couple of caveats. That's light years from where we were 20 years ago. It's not fairly regular it happens when you have been smashed might happen once a career. The fact that's its done by a biological male to a female is abhorrent. If my daughter had it happen by someone who had puberty as a male I'd be furious.

The only other caveats would be rape crisis because surely its the woman's right who sees them. Also changing rooms. The majority of women asked don't want a trans female in their changing room, it would be disgusting for a man to say if that is right or not. Separate Unisex changing areas as a legal standard would stop that.

You don't have to follow boxing or mma to have an opinion, that's a cop out. I don't follow swimming but I feel people who have gone through puberty shouldn't compete against biological females. Females have the worse end of the stick throughout life, without more taken off them

[Hibernia&Alba]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

How much is a proportionate amount of time? Its easy for anyone male to feel unaffected by the impact of it all and therefore possibly it's disproportionate.

Why should any biological female be placed in a position where she has to change in the same space as a fully intact biological male? Or share a medical ward with male strangers? Folk may not have daughters or partners or sisters but we all have mothers. If we're happy that our mother would be put in any of these positions I'd honestly question that. The right to dignity, sense of feeling safe, modesty (if that matters) or whatever is not ours to give away. It's not even the right of females who aren't bothered to give away either tobe honest.


If transwomen who are fully intact males, like Lia Thomas, had to change with other fully intact males it's surely not the same as them changing in a room of biological females?

Again, I think the issue is getting so much attention now because it's become the latest culture wars issue on the right. Distract people from Brexit, the cost of living crisis, wage stagnation, public services underfunding, corruption and cronyism in government by scapegoating a common enemy. It's a tactic as old as humanity, and at the moment the two groups being pummelled are transgenders and refugees.

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Again, I think the issue is getting so much attention now because it's become the latest culture wars issue on the right. Distract people from Brexit, the cost of living crisis, wage stagnation, public services underfunding, corruption and cronyism in government by scapegoating a common enemy. It's a tactic as old as humanity, and at the moment the two groups being pummelled are transgenders and refugees.

It's getting so much attention because it's the first time it's been an issue. Female records are getting broken by trans athletes and prizes given. It would be huge worldwide news at any time

[Moulin Yarns]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

It's getting so much attention because it's the first time it's been an issue. Female records are getting broken by trans athletes and prizes given. It would be huge worldwide news at any time

Trans women are able to beat men as well 😁


Unfortunately a handful of trans athletes, sports people, have managed to win, initially, and the huge majority of transgender people are being ignored, and concentrating on 2 issues, sport and shared spaces, is not helping the majority.

[Stairway 2 7]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Trans women are able to beat men as well 😁


Unfortunately a handful of trans athletes, sports people, have managed to win, initially, and the huge majority of transgender people are being ignored, and concentrating on 2 issues, sport and shared spaces, is not helping the majority.

If the conceded sports and shared spaces then there would be almost no issue for most.

They should be able to beat men, they have the same natural biology