Driving Standards

[Pretty Boy]

This is probably covering stuff discussed in other threads but it's arguably worth a specific discussion.

When I was in my late teens I played at a decent level, for a team that was arguably the best side in Scotland outwith the league set up, won everything at our level and regularly completed with league sides in the Scottish Cup. One thing that was notable was the standard set by the most experienced players. Guys who had been round the block and often played at a much higher level. Training was intense because these guys hated sloppiness, they hated losing the 4 on 4 games, they hated conceding when it was defenders v attackers. If there was a bounce game midweek to give players minutes then these guys played like it was a cup final. They despised losing and expected others to be the same. In the same way losing can become a habit, winning became a habit. If they felt you were slacking then they let you know about it. I'd be lying if I said I always liked them but I respected them. That respect was borne out of the fact it wasn't all mouth either, when games weren't going our way or it was a day to grind it out you would see these guys take the game by the scruff of the neck and get the job done. I was young so didn't play many games but it was a brilliant culture to be part of and the camaraderie and team spirit was second to none.

In the professional game you read about a guy like Roy Keane doing the same job at Man Utd. In Scotland Scott Brown was that driving force at Celtic for years. Neither were the best player in the team but they were the ones who took the lead in setting the standard on the park.

When you watch Hibs this season does anyone see that from anyone in our squad? There was nothing yesterday that suggested anyone was demanding better in the 2nd half. Someone should have been ready to swing punches at Youan and Levitt at HT yesterday. Heads were down and it was going through the motions. Not a lack of caring or effort but just a timid capitulation with no one brave enough to step up with their head above the parapet. Obviously there are a lot of new faces and maybe a couple of them are that type. I'm hopeful it could be Amos, lots of games at a high level and a good age.

Yesterday was just as listless as it gets. There was almost nothing to cling to and you couldn't even say at least X, Y or Z was letting them know about it.

[Partyraiser]

Theres nobody in the squad who can do that and take a game by the scruff of the neck. I noticed before we kicked off after the penalty that not one of them was trying to gee the team up, the majority had their shoulders slouched, some hands on hips. I decided I wanted to go home at that point. When the 3rd went in I left. If the players dont give a flying one, why should I!?

[Trinity Hibee]

This has come up before. We have lacked leaders for a while and it doesn’t mean someone who screams and shouts but someone who leads by example.

McGinn was one of those players, David Gray, Ian Murray. There will be a few more but those jump out. I think it’s a symptom of the modern day now tho too. Players are so self absorbed it appears and very few put their bodies in where it hurts. Apologies after defeats are just embarrassing for everyone and actually just patronising to fans.

People give folk like Roy Keane a hard time for being out of touch or even a dinosaur but there is something to be said for having people who are never happy with what they have achieved and always striving for better. I don’t think we have anyone with that mindset.

More generally the standard of those on the roads has deteriorated over the past decade or so. Many people now very inconsiderate to other road users.

[Irish_Steve]

There was a point in the second half were St Mirren were attacking and Gogic was qvery high up the pitch (it may even have been a corner). St Mirren lost possession and Gogic sprinted back as fast as he could into his CB position.

Bare in mind his team was 3 up and coasting at that point. We have no one who shows that can of desire

[Pretty Boy]

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There was a point in the second half were St Mirren were attacking and Gogic was qvery high up the pitch (it may even have been a corner). St Mirren lost possession and Gogic sprinted back as fast as he could into his CB position.

Bare in mind his team was 3 up and coasting at that point. We have no one who shows that can of desire

I remember when Celtic were 40+ games unbeaten and had been 2-0 up at ER and we got it back to 2-2. They were attacking and lost the ball in our box. Scott Brown ran the length of the park to make a tackle in his own 6 yard box then carried the ball back into our half. All in the space of less than a minute.

I'm not convinced you can coach something like that. You either have it or you don't. Obviously their unbeaten run was rocking by that point, I think it came to an end at Tynecastle a week or 2 later so people might argue that's a bad example. I'd argue it's desire like that that gets you to 40 something games unbeaten in the first place.

[gegs70]

Agree that's one of the things that is lacking. Not sure you see that kind of leadership from any of our experienced players.

[snedzuk]

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Theres nobody in the squad who can do that and take a game by the scruff of the neck. I noticed before we kicked off after the penalty that not one of them was trying to gee the team up, the majority had their shoulders slouched, some hands on hips. I decided I wanted to go home at that point. When the 3rd went in I left. If the players dont give a flying one, why should I!?

See after we equalised against Killie. Maolida goes to celebrate with fans behind the goal. One player goes over and gestures to get back so we can press on. Harry McKirdy.

[Pretty Boy]

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See after we equalised against Killie. Maolida goes to celebrate with fans behind the goal. One player goes over and gestures to get back so we can press on. Harry McKirdy.

Similarly when we scored a last minute equaliser v 9 man Rangers all the players ran over to the goalscorer diving on top of him. There was still almost 4 minutes to play v a team with 9 men, we should have been getting on with it and going for the winner

The one player who was annoyed by it all and was trying to get up and get on with the game was the goalscorer himself. Josh Campbell, who for all his faults is a type who would run through brick walls for us.

[Saint Hibee]

One glimmer of hope from yesterday was Moriah-Welsh. He seemed to be the only Hibs player shouting at his teammates to up their standards.

[CockneyRebel]

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Theres nobody in the squad who can do that and take a game by the scruff of the neck. I noticed before we kicked off after the penalty that not one of them was trying to gee the team up, the majority had their shoulders slouched, some hands on hips. I decided I wanted to go home at that point. When the 3rd went in I left. If the players dont give a flying one, why should I!?

The new midfielder with the man bun actually did that. Maybe not as forceful as it should have been but he did try. Bit of an indictment of our squad that it was a new guy doing this.

[BoomtownHibees]

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The new midfielder with the man bun actually did that. Maybe not as forceful as it should have been but he did try. Bit of an indictment of our squad that it was a new guy doing this.

The captain stood with his hands on his hips, looking at the ground

[jeffers]

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This is probably covering stuff discussed in other threads but it's arguably worth a specific discussion.

When I was in my late teens I played at a decent level, for a team that was arguably the best side in Scotland outwith the league set up, won everything at our level and regularly completed with league sides in the Scottish Cup. One thing that was notable was the standard set by the most experienced players. Guys who had been round the block and often played at a much higher level. Training was intense because these guys hated sloppiness, they hated losing the 4 on 4 games, they hated conceding when it was defenders v attackers. If there was a bounce game midweek to give players minutes then these guys played like it was a cup final. They despised losing and expected others to be the same. In the same way losing can become a habit, winning became a habit. If they felt you were slacking then they let you know about it. I'd be lying if I said I always liked them but I respected them. That respect was borne out of the fact it wasn't all mouth either, when games weren't going our way or it was a day to grind it out you would see these guys take the game by the scruff of the neck and get the job done. I was young so didn't play many games but it was a brilliant culture to be part of and the camaraderie and team spirit was second to none.

In the professional game you read about a guy like Roy Keane doing the same job at Man Utd. In Scotland Scott Brown was that driving force at Celtic for years. Neither were the best player in the team but they were the ones who took the lead in setting the standard on the park.

When you watch Hibs this season does anyone see that from anyone in our squad? There was nothing yesterday that suggested anyone was demanding better in the 2nd half. Someone should have been ready to swing punches at Youan and Levitt at HT yesterday. Heads were down and it was going through the motions. Not a lack of caring or effort but just a timid capitulation with no one brave enough to step up with their head above the parapet. Obviously there are a lot of new faces and maybe a couple of them are that type. I'm hopeful it could be Amos, lots of games at a high level and a good age.

Yesterday was just as listless as it gets. There was almost nothing to cling to and you couldn't even say at least X, Y or Z was letting them know about it.

Your post is absolutely spot on and without betraying anyone’s confidence it’s a view held by one of our players.

A few of us have argued this for a long time. We have no one like Daz, Marvin or SDG in the squad now. Yeah we lost games with them in the side but you knew when the going got tough they wouldn’t back down. Joe Newell by all accounts is a lovely guy, good pro but there is absolutely no way he’s captain material imo.

[Victor]

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The new midfielder with the man bun actually did that. Maybe not as forceful as it should have been but he did try. Bit of an indictment of our squad that it was a new guy doing this.

I noticed him doing that also. Maybe he wasn’t so forceful because he is not long in and it may be something he will do with more gusto once he gets to know everyone. I think that the second half substitutes also had an impact on the urgency. Again once everyone gets to know everyone else leaders may emerge.

[hibsbollah]

In terms of character, bravery, yes we need more of that.
What PB is describing in his op sounds like it crossed into fear based on a bullying culture, which a twenty first century player by all accounts doesn’t really respond to. A lot of that fear came from pre-bosman times when a player wasnt in control of his contractual position, and so his earning potential. Now they will just demand a transfer if they feel pushed around.

Rampant and visible positivity based on hard work and dedication to being better every day is what all the sports science stuff is all about nowadays. But i dont think much of THAT is at ER either.

[Pretty Boy]

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In terms of character, bravery, yes we need more of that.
What PB is describing in his op sounds like it crossed into fear based on a bullying culture, which a twenty first century player by all accounts doesn’t really respond to. A lot of that fear came from pre-bosman times when a player wasnt in control of his contractual position, and so his earning potential. Now they will just demand a transfer if they feel pushed around.

Rampant and visible positivity based on hard work and dedication to being better every day is what all the sports science stuff is all about nowadays. But i dont think much of THAT is at ER either.

It 100% wasn't a bullying culture.

If anyone was taking things too far or taking liberties they would have been told as much. There was no ranting, swearing, intimidation or the like because there didn't need to be. People knew what was expected when they walked in the door and if they didn't they soon learned, largely through learning by example.

If anything it was quite the opposite. An environment where people wanted everyone to be the best they could be. A bullying culture rarely has positive results. We were the best at what we did for years and that continues at the same club today.

[hibsbollah]

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It 100% wasn't a bullying culture.

If anyone was taking things too far or taking liberties they would have been told as much. There was no ranting, swearing, intimidation or the like because there didn't need to be. People knew what was expected when they walked in the door and if they didn't they soon learned, largely through learning by example.

If anything it was quite the opposite. An environment where people wanted everyone to be the best they could be. A bullying culture rarely has positive results. We were the best at what we did for years and that continues at the same club today.

Fair enough, its your experience not mine so you would know. I just took thatfrom what you said about not liking the senior players you played with, and maybe ‘swinging punches at Youan’ you’re not meaning it literally

[Pretty Boy]

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Fair enough, its your experience not mine so you would know. I just took thatfrom what you said about not liking the senior players you played with, and maybe ‘swinging punches at Youan’ you’re not meaning it literally

I doubt there are many 16 and 17 year olds who wouldn't do a bit muttering under their breath or whatever when a guy is upset at losing a small sided game in training. 'What the
**** does it matter' was often my thought initially. But then when you see that same guy standing up for his team mates on the park, having a quiet word when guys are toiling and spending a bit of time with you to make you better you realise that's why he is good at what he does. It's not some has been just taking a loan of young lads. For me in work, football or more generally respecting someone has always been more important than liking them, even if they don't have to be mutually exclusive, and I tend not to respect bullies.

When it comes to Youan and Levitt yesterday obviously physical violence is hyperbole but I would argue they were fair game for a team mate or 2 to be forcefully asking them if they really thought that was acceptable. I suppose the issue is they just happened to be the worst of a bad bunch, no one was really in a position to take on that role because no one could be satisfied with their own performance. That's undeniably were we miss a type like McGinn who led by example in games, relished the big games and was happy to ask questions of his team mates when they needed asking as well. It takes all sorts of course and an arm round the shoulder can sometimes be the case but right now at Hibs I think we are at the tough love and home truths stage.

[Ronniekirk]

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There was a point in the second half were St Mirren were attacking and Gogic was qvery high up the pitch (it may even have been a corner). St Mirren lost possession and Gogic sprinted back as fast as he could into his CB position.

Bear in mind his team was 3 up and coasting at that point. We have no one who shows that can of desire

Egan Riley sbowed that level of commitment when we had him on loan Butvthis lot just didn’t look interested in that first half I wanted to leave but have never left a game at half time
Soldiered on till last ten minutes and left then
But am still traumatised and won’t be travelling back through from Paisley again any time soon
At least my st Mirren mates were happy
But there media are going overboard saying they were brilliant
No Brilliance was needed , it was dug***** defending and a complete lack of willingness to fight for first second and even third balls ffs
Following on from Forfar game that was the last straw for me

[Smartie]

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I doubt there are many 16 and 17 year olds who wouldn't do a bit muttering under their breath or whatever when a guy is upset at losing a small sided game in training. 'What the
**** does it matter' was often my thought initially. But then when you see that same guy standing up for his team mates on the park, having a quiet word when guys are toiling and spending a bit of time with you to make you better you realise that's why he is good at what he does. It's not some has been just taking a loan of young lads. For me in work, football or more generally respecting someone has always been more important than liking them, even if they don't have to be mutually exclusive, and I tend not to respect bullies.

When it comes to Youan and Levitt yesterday obviously physical violence is hyperbole but I would argue they were fair game for a team mate or 2 to be forcefully asking them if they really thought that was acceptable. I suppose the issue is they just happened to be the worst of a bad bunch, no one was really in a position to take on that role because no one could be satisfied with their own performance. That's undeniably were we miss a type like McGinn who led by example in games, relished the big games and was happy to ask questions of his team mates when they needed asking as well. It takes all sorts of course and an arm round the shoulder can sometimes be the case but right now at Hibs I think we are at the tough love and home truths stage.

I remember Lewis Stevenson saying about Jack Ross that he “had ways of letting you know when he wasn’t happy with you” which is fair enough.

You could imagine that Eddie Turnbull or even Yogi would have a different way of letting you know if they weren’t happy with you.

Either way - you could argue that this is about making the point that standards must me met, that can be done in a softer, more modern way or it can be done in a harsher, more old-fashioned way. What can’t happen is for sloppiness to pass with a shrug and a “**** it” which appears to be the entirely unacceptable Hibernian way right now.

[B.H.F.C]

This is exactly why signing a couple of 20 year old centre halves was extremely risky and unlikely to change our fortunes.

We didn’t need to sign 7 players in this window, things are just going to get messy and there will be loads of chopping and changing. We needed to sign 2-3 proper first pick players who would come in and do a job, even if it was short term. Didn’t need to be brilliant players. Particularly on the defensive side we needed the type that would come in and organise us and drag others along a bit. We’re much more interested in having a different type of player who is deemed to be technically good or whatever. We just lack what you need in this league.

[wookie70]

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Rampant and visible positivity based on hard work and dedication to being better every day is what all the sports science stuff is all about nowadays. But i dont think much of THAT is at ER either.

I often wonder about sports science. It is the equivalent of Organisational Development in an office imo. A layer of bureaucracy that seems to be there to tell those that do things they already know. Decent managers do that already, square pegs in square holes, the right personnel in pivotal positions and a common group goal with a simplified part to play in that group for each individual. I know everyone says football is very complicated these days and that the youth of today don't react to old style management but I'm not convinced. Look at Robinson yesterday. Bags of personality and screaming encouragement at his team but also doing it with a smile on his face. His players seemed to mirror that with their intensity and they didn't do much that any decent team can do. I always think teams mirror their manager if enough time has passed. Ross was pragmatic, a bit dull and not very inspiring, LJ was incoherent but also had a little flair from time to time and Monty is repetitive, uninspiring and doesn't seem too hurt by appalling performances.

I think Prettyboy has similar thoughts to me. What the last three managers seemed to lack is that hatred of losing and at times I wasn't even sure they were that bothered what the result was. I'm not a Lennon fan but he really didn't like getting beat and as long as that doesn't end up with a manager pointing public fingers at individuals I can see that as a good thing. Hating getting beat is very different to not enjoying it. Our squad definitely don't enjoy it but the heads go down rather than the veins bulging and they look for ways to become less involved rather than leading from the front and getting others to follow. A managers most important job is making sure individuals perform to their ability and they combine those individuals into a team that is greater than the sum of its parts. Monty is failing miserably in both of those important areas and I think PBs OP is a big part of it. I don't think it hurts when we lose and I don't think we are working hard enough on the pitch and presumable in training. I don't think youngsters are afraid of hard work or will not enjoy old school leadership I simply think there is very little of it in our squad.

[sean]

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I often wonder about sports science. It is the equivalent of Organisational Development in an office imo. A layer of bureaucracy that seems to be there to tell those that do things they already know. Decent managers do that already, square pegs in square holes, the right personnel in pivotal positions and a common group goal with a simplified part to play in that group for each individual. I know everyone says football is very complicated these days and that the youth of today don't react to old style management but I'm not convinced. Look at Robinson yesterday. Bags of personality and screaming encouragement at his team but also doing it with a smile on his face. His players seemed to mirror that with their intensity and they didn't do much that any decent team can do. I always think teams mirror their manager if enough time has passed. Ross was pragmatic, a bit dull and not very inspiring, LJ was incoherent but also had a little flair from time to time and Monty is repetitive, uninspiring and doesn't seem too hurt by appalling performances.

I think Prettyboy has similar thoughts to me. What the last three managers seemed to lack is that hatred of losing and at times I wasn't even sure they were that bothered what the result was. I'm not a Lennon fan but he really didn't like getting beat and as long as that doesn't end up with a manager pointing public fingers at individuals I can see that as a good thing. Hating getting beat is very different to not enjoying it. Our squad definitely don't enjoy it but the heads go down rather than the veins bulging and they look for ways to become less involved rather than leading from the front and getting others to follow. A managers most important job is making sure individuals perform to their ability and they combine those individuals into a team that is greater than the sum of its parts. Monty is failing miserably in both of those important areas and I think PBs OP is a big part of it. I don't think it hurts when we lose and I don't think we are working hard enough on the pitch and presumable in training. I don't think youngsters are afraid of hard work or will not enjoy old school leadership I simply think there is very little of it in our squad.

I watched st Mirren players closely yesterday. One of there players went ****ing mental at his striker with 20 minutes for not shutting down an area, we’ve no one like that. I’m not saying the senior players aren’t leaders, I’m sure they are top pros but we don’t seem to have anyone that is going to dig anyone out.

Joe looked gutted in his post match and you could see it affected him but who’s bashing heads together to say that’s simply not on out there.

We’ve a cluster **** off a window, on paper looks great but all we’ve got is guys who haven’t been playing football. They probs won’t give a flying **** if things get tough. It’s a 12 team league and there’s not much margin for error!

[LunasBoots]

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This is probably covering stuff discussed in other threads but it's arguably worth a specific discussion.

When I was in my late teens I played at a decent level, for a team that was arguably the best side in Scotland outwith the league set up, won everything at our level and regularly completed with league sides in the Scottish Cup. One thing that was notable was the standard set by the most experienced players. Guys who had been round the block and often played at a much higher level. Training was intense because these guys hated sloppiness, they hated losing the 4 on 4 games, they hated conceding when it was defenders v attackers. If there was a bounce game midweek to give players minutes then these guys played like it was a cup final. They despised losing and expected others to be the same. In the same way losing can become a habit, winning became a habit. If they felt you were slacking then they let you know about it. I'd be lying if I said I always liked them but I respected them. That respect was borne out of the fact it wasn't all mouth either, when games weren't going our way or it was a day to grind it out you would see these guys take the game by the scruff of the neck and get the job done. I was young so didn't play many games but it was a brilliant culture to be part of and the camaraderie and team spirit was second to none.

In the professional game you read about a guy like Roy Keane doing the same job at Man Utd. In Scotland Scott Brown was that driving force at Celtic for years. Neither were the best player in the team but they were the ones who took the lead in setting the standard on the park.

When you watch Hibs this season does anyone see that from anyone in our squad? There was nothing yesterday that suggested anyone was demanding better in the 2nd half. Someone should have been ready to swing punches at Youan and Levitt at HT yesterday. Heads were down and it was going through the motions. Not a lack of caring or effort but just a timid capitulation with no one brave enough to step up with their head above the parapet. Obviously there are a lot of new faces and maybe a couple of them are that type. I'm hopeful it could be Amos, lots of games at a high level and a good age.

Yesterday was just as listless as it gets. There was almost nothing to cling to and you couldn't even say at least X, Y or Z was letting them know about it.

Been crying out for some players like that for years, we have had them down the years but not recently, players with a bit of drive and leadership is what we need, your Mcginn, Broony type player. The communication in recent years has been pretty non existant.

[Murphys Touch]

The best/luckiest thing to happen to Hibs in recent years was when Stubbs came to us, there was only 7 or 8 first team players left in the squad. Yes a lot of crap left but with them left the losing attitude.

A new squad in Championship then got that winning feeling.

Now I by no means want to go down but the vast majority of this squad have a high losing record over the last 4 seasons and personally would be getting shot of as many as possible. I include club legends in that, coaches, kit men and just being fresh

[The Modfather]

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This is probably covering stuff discussed in other threads but it's arguably worth a specific discussion.

When I was in my late teens I played at a decent level, for a team that was arguably the best side in Scotland outwith the league set up, won everything at our level and regularly completed with league sides in the Scottish Cup. One thing that was notable was the standard set by the most experienced players. Guys who had been round the block and often played at a much higher level. Training was intense because these guys hated sloppiness, they hated losing the 4 on 4 games, they hated conceding when it was defenders v attackers. If there was a bounce game midweek to give players minutes then these guys played like it was a cup final. They despised losing and expected others to be the same. In the same way losing can become a habit, winning became a habit. If they felt you were slacking then they let you know about it. I'd be lying if I said I always liked them but I respected them. That respect was borne out of the fact it wasn't all mouth either, when games weren't going our way or it was a day to grind it out you would see these guys take the game by the scruff of the neck and get the job done. I was young so didn't play many games but it was a brilliant culture to be part of and the camaraderie and team spirit was second to none.

In the professional game you read about a guy like Roy Keane doing the same job at Man Utd. In Scotland Scott Brown was that driving force at Celtic for years. Neither were the best player in the team but they were the ones who took the lead in setting the standard on the park.

When you watch Hibs this season does anyone see that from anyone in our squad? There was nothing yesterday that suggested anyone was demanding better in the 2nd half. Someone should have been ready to swing punches at Youan and Levitt at HT yesterday. Heads were down and it was going through the motions. Not a lack of caring or effort but just a timid capitulation with no one brave enough to step up with their head above the parapet. Obviously there are a lot of new faces and maybe a couple of them are that type. I'm hopeful it could be Amos, lots of games at a high level and a good age.

Yesterday was just as listless as it gets. There was almost nothing to cling to and you couldn't even say at least X, Y or Z was letting them know about it.

It’s one incident, but it really stood out for me and emblematic of wider issues. When Killie scored their second goal last week Youan, and I think it was Emiliano, made a half hearted pretend effort to stop the cross. Which we predictably didn’t defend and conceded from. It was from our LB area and Marshall, Obita, Hanlon & Newell were all in the vicinity after it happened. As the senior players not one of them went over to speak to Youan & Emiliano to constructively make the point their (non) attempts to stop the cross weren’t good enough. I’m not talking about shouting and screaming but talking calmly and constructively.

Those said senior players followed everyone else into trudging back into position shoulders slumped heads down. The team then visibly went into its shell for the next 20 minutes.That’s an example of the leadership void in this squad IMO.

[Aldo]

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I watched st Mirren players closely yesterday. One of there players went ****ing mental at his striker with 20 minutes for not shutting down an area, we’ve no one like that. I’m not saying the senior players aren’t leaders, I’m sure they are top pros but we don’t seem to have anyone that is going to dig anyone out.

Joe looked gutted in his post match and you could see it affected him but who’s bashing heads together to say that’s simply not on out there.

We’ve a cluster **** off a window, on paper looks great but all we’ve got is guys who haven’t been playing football. They probs won’t give a flying **** if things get tough. It’s a 12 team league and there’s not much margin for error!

Joe Newell is definitely not a leader. He’s part of the problem for me. From recent weeks he’s lacked any sort of leadership.

As captain and a senior pro he should be leading by example and ensuring the players know what’s bloody expected of them instead of going through the motions.

Newell, Levitt, Jair and Youan need dropped but my fear is the manager persists with them.

I remember Hanlon getting all sorts of criticism for being a poor/weak leader and if that’s the case Newell deserves the same.

If truth be told I’m glad he’s gutted and he should be embarrassed by recent performances. He doesn’t do enough.

Whilst I’m not advocating bollocking folk on the pitch he just needs to step up as captain and get them told!

[VoltaireHibs]

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I often wonder about sports science. It is the equivalent of Organisational Development in an office imo. A layer of bureaucracy that seems to be there to tell those that do things they already know. Decent managers do that already, square pegs in square holes, the right personnel in pivotal positions and a common group goal with a simplified part to play in that group for each individual. I know everyone says football is very complicated these days and that the youth of today don't react to old style management but I'm not convinced. Look at Robinson yesterday. Bags of personality and screaming encouragement at his team but also doing it with a smile on his face. His players seemed to mirror that with their intensity and they didn't do much that any decent team can do. I always think teams mirror their manager if enough time has passed. Ross was pragmatic, a bit dull and not very inspiring, LJ was incoherent but also had a little flair from time to time and Monty is repetitive, uninspiring and doesn't seem too hurt by appalling performances.

I think Prettyboy has similar thoughts to me. What the last three managers seemed to lack is that hatred of losing and at times I wasn't even sure they were that bothered what the result was. I'm not a Lennon fan but he really didn't like getting beat and as long as that doesn't end up with a manager pointing public fingers at individuals I can see that as a good thing. Hating getting beat is very different to not enjoying it. Our squad definitely don't enjoy it but the heads go down rather than the veins bulging and they look for ways to become less involved rather than leading from the front and getting others to follow. A managers most important job is making sure individuals perform to their ability and they combine those individuals into a team that is greater than the sum of its parts. Monty is failing miserably in both of those important areas and I think PBs OP is a big part of it. I don't think it hurts when we lose and I don't think we are working hard enough on the pitch and presumable in training. I don't think youngsters are afraid of hard work or will not enjoy old school leadership I simply think there is very little of it in our squad.

I think the thing to remember with Lennon is that, up until the end, the majority of the players enjoyed working with him. Did Lewis Stevenson not say he was the best coach he'd worked with? Now, Lewis is a pretty shy, unassuming guy by all accounts, but it shows that Lennon obviously wasn't all temper tantrums. But I do think managers need to have that fear factor in their locker.

As for the players, it's just a basic lack of desire to do the dirty work, to earn the right to play football, which is about as basic a requirement as you'll find in football anywhere in the world. If we go up to ICT and play anything like yesterday then we'll be out the cup. Big Dunc will have them well up for this, they'll smell blood.

[B.H.F.C]

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Joe Newell is definitely not a leader. He’s part of the problem for me. From recent weeks he’s lacked any sort of leadership.

As captain and a senior pro he should be leading by example and ensuring the players know what’s bloody expected of them instead of going through the motions.

Newell, Levitt, Jair and Youan need dropped but my fear is the manager persists with them.

I remember Hanlon getting all sorts of criticism for being a poor/weak leader and if that’s the case Newell deserves the same.

If truth be told I’m glad he’s gutted and he should be embarrassed by recent performances. He doesn’t do enough.

Whilst I’m not advocating bollocking folk on the pitch he just needs to step up as captain and get them told!

Listened to Newell’s interview and he mentioned that we’ve been here before. He also said we’ll be here again. After having spent a couple of minutes talking about how we didn’t work hard enough that just sums up the mentality for me. It’s fine getting beat, we’re always going to lose games. But the manner in which we played in that first half was as bad as I’ve ever seen (and I don’t think that’s an exaggeration). We offered absolutely nothing either on or off the ball and whilst some were worse than others, the application levels were collectively shocking. There shouldn’t be any kind of acceptance that we’ll ever go on a pitch and, as a team, apply ourselves that way ever again.

[Aldo]

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Listened to Newell’s interview and he mentioned that we’ve been here before. He also said we’ll be here again. After having spent a couple of minutes talking about how we didn’t work hard enough that just sums up the mentality for me. It’s fine getting beat, we’re always going to lose games. But the manner in which we played in that first half was as bad as I’ve ever seen (and I don’t think that’s an exaggeration). We offered absolutely nothing either on or off the ball and whilst some were worse than others, the application levels were collectively shocking. There shouldn’t be any kind of acceptance that we’ll ever go on a pitch and, as a team, apply ourselves ever again.

Correct.

We shouldn’t be there it’s simple as that Joe. Haven’t even done the basics for weeks and weeks yet you think we will be there again. What are you going to do so it doesn’t.

Totally and utterly unacceptable for the captain to say that for me and shows the negative mentality. Go out, work hard or harder than you opponents and show you actually care.

Words are cheap.

[The Captain....]

When success on the park is secondary to a player trading strategy its difficult to achieve consistent high standards.

Nothing will change and we'll continue along as we are..hovering around top and bottom 6. I don't see where the demands for higher standards than that comes, from anywhere in the hierarchy of the club.

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