Safe standing

[He's here!]

Latest from England:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62029516

Where do things 'stand' in Scotland? IMHO this would be something Hibs should seriously consider to lift the atmosphere at ER.

[Since452]

Celtic have it so no reason why we shouldn't. Think Killie have it too.

[badabing67]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Celtic have it so no reason why we shouldn't. Think Killie have it too.

The back of section 43 stand anyway, think it would be the best place to trail if the club wants to try it

[LaMotta]

Hibs are looking at safe standing options for the FF stand next season and will be consulting supporters later in 2022 to help finalise plans.

[Onceinawhile]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Hibs are looking at safe standing options for the FF stand next season and will be consulting supporters later in 2022 to help finalise plans.

Where did you see this?

[wookie70]

If Hibs play the way LJ wants us to then nobody will be talking about the lack of atmosphere at ER next season.

[LaMotta]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Where did you see this?

Kieran Power told me this a couple of months ago mate - I posted it on a thread about Easter Road atmosphere at the time. That was the plan at the time anyway.

[nickwhibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Kieran Power told me this a couple of months ago mate - I posted it on a thread about Easter Road atmosphere at the time. That was the plan at the time anyway.

Fingers crossed it comes to fruition

[Bishop Hibee]

It’d be great to see safe standing at ER for those who want it. FF Lower sounds ideal if possible.

[Hermit Crab]

FFL and the South Lower should be done, give away fans the choice as well.

[RIP]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The back of section 43 stand anyway, think it would be the best place to trail if the club wants to try it

The club will commission a supporter poll to make sure that they can evidence their rationale for a pilot.

Regardless of whether Safe Standing ends up being sited, Section43 will still be busy. A side on view beside the away support has been a preference for Hibs fans for 40 years.

Stuck behind a goal with a distant view of the other goalmouth only works if we have giant screens

[CapitalGreen]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The club will commission a supporter poll to make sure that they can evidence their rationale for a pilot.

Regardless of whether Safe Standing ends up being sited, Section43 will still be busy. A side on view beside the away support has been a preference for Hibs fans for 40 years.

Stuck behind a goal with a distant view of the other goalmouth only works if we have giant screens

People standing behind the goals at football matches has worked for over 150 years.

[LaMotta]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

People standing behind the goals at football matches has worked for over 150 years.

It's also the best place to be if your team is shooting towards your end.

[Bridge hibs]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

People standing behind the goals at football matches has worked for over 150 years.

And yonks ago we used to swap ends at half time, I remember doing that at Paisley Love Street 😁

[Waxy]

Really hope this happens.

[LancashireHibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

FFL and the South Lower should be done, give away fans the choice as well.

I think that's part of the deal down here that it must be offered to both sets of fans. Clearly that isn't the case at Celtic (or indeed Shrewsbury, come to think of it - must be a Premier League thing)

In some way it's a shame the new East was built when it was* as a few years later it might have been designed with safe standing in mind, but I expect the current configuration is far too steep. Even then, I'm not sure whether or not there'd have to be significant structural changes to the stands behind the goals which might deem it impractical anyway.

*I'm aware the planning permission was about to run out so was speaking hypothetically

[davhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I think that's part of the deal down here that it must be offered to both sets of fans. Clearly that isn't the case at Celtic (or indeed Shrewsbury, come to think of it - must be a Premier League thing)

In some way it's a shame the new East was built when it was* as a few years later it might have been designed with safe standing in mind, but I expect the current configuration is far too steep. Even then, I'm not sure whether or not there'd have to be significant structural changes to the stands behind the goals which might deem it impractical anyway.

*I'm aware the planning permission was about to run out so was speaking hypothetically

The difference up here is that there’s no rules on seating/safe standing/old school terracing in the SPFL. Whereas the Premier League in England haven’t allowed any sort of standing at all.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Aberdeen include safe standing if they ever get a new ground sorted and wonder if Dundee United are maybe thinking about adding it as well.

[Onceinawhile]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I think that's part of the deal down here that it must be offered to both sets of fans. Clearly that isn't the case at Celtic (or indeed Shrewsbury, come to think of it - must be a Premier League thing)

In some way it's a shame the new East was built when it was* as a few years later it might have been designed with safe standing in mind, but I expect the current configuration is far too steep. Even then, I'm not sure whether or not there'd have to be significant structural changes to the stands behind the goals which might deem it impractical anyway.

*I'm aware the planning permission was about to run out so was speaking hypothetically

If people had just thought it through, we could have gone with the two tier model and had standing in the lower. Would also have made the stadium look much better.

Unfortunately we voted for one tier to "keep the atmosphere".

[RIP]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

People standing behind the goals at football matches has worked for over 150 years.

I’m of the generation where there was only one seated stand. Three standing stands were the norm and there were three behaviour types.

1. You stood alongside the pitch in your chosen position and you stayed there for the whole game.

2. As option 1 but still on the side you moved along nearer the opposite goal

3. You stood behind a goal and swapped ends at half time

However with the advent of all seated stadia and the growth of season tickets, most of us have to choose a permanent place from which to view the match. Since the new East was built, several thousand Hibs supporters in that stand appear to be happy with their view of the game. The East has such a high rake that it offers a good view of both goals and the whole of the pitch.

Currently the South Stand is reserved for away fans and the North is mainly for families. I’ve yet to see any supporter survey that shows that singing standing fans from the East will flood over to the North in significant numbers to stand behind a rail for a couple of hours.

In fact our own Singing Section experimented with the North only to return to the South end of the East Stand where our loudest fans have been based for 40 years. Being behind the goals is appealing to some supporters I have no doubt.

However, if club management are going to investigate the installation of rails in the North or other Stand, they are going to need to see a lot more substantial evidence of demand than a few dozen advocates on a supporter messageboard and a dedicated group of Ultras.

This is where we need a Supporters Association.

[donno]

If safe standing is really for the singing section, then it should be placed as close to the away end as possible.

Sent from my JNY-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Scouse Hibee]

The “safe standing” tag is unnecessary in my opinion. “Standing” will suffice, it’s always been safe to stand at a football match, it’s other contributory factors that have caused problems in the past, you would hope that those issues are long behind us in the U.K. at least. Like many on here I stood on terraces from a young age and never felt in any danger. In fact the camaraderie on the terraces was great and even as a youngster on the KOP there was always a helping hand available.

[Pretty Boy]

If you look at the famous singing sections, ultra sections etc across Europe and beyond they tend to congregate behind the goals.

The yellow wall at Dortmund, Frente Atletico at the Metropolitano, Curva Nord at the San Siro, the Ultraslan of Galatasaray, the Boixos Nois at Barcelona or in the UK the Holmesdale Fanatics at Crystal Palace. Even in areas where standing isn't (officially) an option the likes of the Kop at Anfield, Stretford End at Old Trafford and Gallowgate End at St James tend to attract the loudest and most colourful fans.

I'm not suggesting it's prescriptive that a singing and standing section has to be behind a goal but it seems to be the position of choice for some of the groups who have made it a success. Maybe there is a psychological appeal about having 'claimed an end'. Of course we are a million miles away from the groups mentioned above and there is no guarantee that a move to the FF Lower will work but we do know that the current set up isn't working when it comes to atmosphere creation. The young lads involved in the current signing group try their best but they are fighting a losing battle to get people engaged. Surely trying something different and giving people a choice about whether to sit or stand is worth a shot?

Of course there are logistical challenges. The family section would have to be accommodated elsewhere (although I'd imagine more than a few older kids would want to be in amongst or close to a loud signing section). There is always threats of 'I won't renew my ST if I have to move' but I'm sceptical as to how many people would actually follow through with such a threat. I was moved from my seat in section 25 when the signing section was relocated there for a spell. I wasn't overly thrilled about it as I liked the people I sat with but not renewing as some form of petty protest never crossed my mind, I moved a couple of sections along and it was fine.

The good thing is the owner and board seem willing to throw a lot of stuff out there when it comes to improving the experience at ER and seeing what sticks. Opera singers and the like aren't for everyone but we tried it. A standing section is obviously a bigger commitment than that in a number of ways but I'd rather try something than constantly throw up worst case scenarios about why it won't work.

[LaMotta]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If you look at the famous singing sections, ultra sections etc across Europe and beyond they tend to congregate behind the goals.

The yellow wall at Dortmund, Frente Atletico at the Metropolitano, Curva Nord at the San Siro, the Ultraslan of Galatasaray, the Boixos Nois at Barcelona or in the UK the Holmesdale Fanatics at Crystal Palace. Even in areas where standing isn't (officially) an option the likes of the Kop at Anfield, Stretford End at Old Trafford and Gallowgate End at St James tend to attract the loudest and most colourful fans.

I'm not suggesting it's prescriptive that a singing and standing section has to be behind a goal but it seems to be the position of choice for some of the groups who have made it a success. Maybe there is a psychological appeal about having 'claimed an end'. Of course we are a million miles away from the groups mentioned above and there is no guarantee that a move to the FF Lower will work but we do know that the current set up isn't working when it comes to atmosphere creation. The young lads involved in the current signing group try their best but they are fighting a losing battle to get people engaged. Surely trying something different and giving people a choice about whether to sit or stand is worth a shot?

Of course there are logistical challenges. The family section would have to be accommodated elsewhere (although I'd imagine more than a few older kids would want to be in amongst or close to a loud signing section). There is always threats of 'I won't renew my ST if I have to move' but I'm sceptical as to how many people would actually follow through with such a threat. I was moved from my seat in section 25 when the signing section was relocated there for a spell. I wasn't overly thrilled about it as I liked the people I sat with but not renewing as some form of petty protest never crossed my mind, I moved a couple of sections along and it was fine.

The good thing is the owner and board seem willing to throw a lot of stuff out there when it comes to improving the experience at ER and seeing what sticks. Opera singers and the like aren't for everyone but we tried it. A standing section is obviously a bigger commitment than that in a number of ways but I'd rather try something than constantly throw up worst case scenarios about why it won't work.

Excellent post, agree with every word.

[RIP]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If you look at the famous singing sections, ultra sections etc across Europe and beyond they tend to congregate behind the goals.

The yellow wall at Dortmund, Frente Atletico at the Metropolitano, Curva Nord at the San Siro, the Ultraslan of Galatasaray, the Boixos Nois at Barcelona or in the UK the Holmesdale Fanatics at Crystal Palace. Even in areas where standing isn't (officially) an option the likes of the Kop at Anfield, Stretford End at Old Trafford and Gallowgate End at St James tend to attract the loudest and most colourful fans.

I'm not suggesting it's prescriptive that a singing and standing section has to be behind a goal but it seems to be the position of choice for some of the groups who have made it a success. Maybe there is a psychological appeal about having 'claimed an end'. Of course we are a million miles away from the groups mentioned above and there is no guarantee that a move to the FF Lower will work but we do know that the current set up isn't working when it comes to atmosphere creation. The young lads involved in the current signing group try their best but they are fighting a losing battle to get people engaged. Surely trying something different and giving people a choice about whether to sit or stand is worth a shot?

Of course there are logistical challenges. The family section would have to be accommodated elsewhere (although I'd imagine more than a few older kids would want to be in amongst or close to a loud signing section). There is always threats of 'I won't renew my ST if I have to move' but I'm sceptical as to how many people would actually follow through with such a threat. I was moved from my seat in section 25 when the signing section was relocated there for a spell. I wasn't overly thrilled about it as I liked the people I sat with but not renewing as some form of petty protest never crossed my mind, I moved a couple of sections along and it was fine.

The good thing is the owner and board seem willing to throw a lot of stuff out there when it comes to improving the experience at ER and seeing what sticks. Opera singers and the like aren't for everyone but we tried it. A standing section is obviously a bigger commitment than that in a number of ways but I'd rather try something than constantly throw up worst case scenarios about why it won't work.

I always enjoy reading your posts PB and this one makes good points, expressed in the most articulate way.

Therein lies the problem.

If only Hibs supporters like us could suddenly wake up and convert the hundreds if not thousands of words posted on forums on messageboards and Facebook groups on this topic into truly effect fan activism inspired by the European groups that you have listed above.

I’m convinced that well meaning fans mistakenly believe that posting the same arguments year in, year out, will somehow miraculously convert into management formulating an implementation plan for a standing area at Easter Road.

What we need is an action group backed by our Supporters Association, who would have to switch their focus from operating as a social club hosting Elvis Tribute Acts and enter into professional and regular dialogue with club management on all aspects of fan improvements. Everything from improving support for the team, enhancing the matchday atmosphere and matching the investment of our rivals.

I’m envious of other clubs such as Crystal Palace who have made huge strides in this area. All it took there was for fans to step away from their phones, form a campaign group and make things happen.

Sadly I’m not going to hold my breath that our supporters will step up to the plate and get things moving any time soon. I pray that I’ll be proven wrong sooner rather than later.

[Pretty Boy]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I always enjoy reading your posts PB and this one makes good points, expressed in the most articulate way.

Therein lies the problem.

If only Hibs supporters like us could suddenly wake up and convert the hundreds if not thousands of words posted on forums on messageboards and Facebook groups on this topic into truly effect fan activism inspired by the European groups that you have listed above.

I’m convinced that well meaning fans mistakenly believe that posting the same arguments year in, year out, will somehow miraculously convert into management formulating an implementation plan for a standing area at Easter Road.

What we need is an action group backed by our Supporters Association, who would have to switch their focus from operating as a social club hosting Elvis Tribute Acts and enter into professional and regular dialogue with club management on all aspects of fan improvements. Everything from improving support for the team, enhancing the matchday atmosphere and matching the investment of our rivals.

I’m envious of other clubs such as Crystal Palace who have made huge strides in this area. All it took there was for fans to step away from their phones, form a campaign group and make things happen.

Sadly I’m not going to hold my breath that our supporters will step up to the plate and get things moving any time soon. I pray that I’ll be proven wrong sooner rather than later.

I had a chat with a couple of the guys involved in a previous incarnation of the singing group a few years back. It was around about the time of the League Cup game in which the guys moved en masse from section 25 to the FFL half way through the game after being denied the chance to do so officially as a trial.

It was, from my point of view at any rate, an interesting conversation. My line of work involves sales pitches, market trends etc etc and I suggested to them the only way they would make any progress with Hibs, certainly at that time, was to present a business case. I suggested they actively canvas the opinion of the wider support through a survey, address the concerns of potentially displaced fans and present solutions, demonstrate the benefits of standing sections both economically and culturally and present them to the club and so on. The truth is Hibs knew and know the benefit of a colourful and loud organised group. The club have long been happy to use them in media and marketing when it suits. My argument was it was time to use that marketability and prominence to further their own ambitions and that of others who supported what they wanted.

Of course none of the various incarnations of the singing group invented singing or atmosphere at the football, there have always been and will always be pockets who congregate in traditional areas to sing. However I still maintain that giving a group and in turn the wider support a large area to develop themselves, that is maybe a bit more laissez faire has benefits. It's a completely different prospect to a section stuck in the corner of a stand or a few rows at the front of another. It's an argument that has to be presented in the correct way though and as you say all the moaning in the world on her or Twitter isn't going to change anything.

At the time I sat down with a couple of the guys the feedback I got was thanks but no thanks. My view was a bit too 'corporate'. Totally fine, everyone has their own ideas of how to achieve what they want. I'd still be more than happy to help the guys involved in Block 7 make their case if it was something they wanted to revisit though.

[LaMotta]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I always enjoy reading your posts PB and this one makes good points, expressed in the most articulate way.

Therein lies the problem.

If only Hibs supporters like us could suddenly wake up and convert the hundreds if not thousands of words posted on forums on messageboards and Facebook groups on this topic into truly effect fan activism inspired by the European groups that you have listed above.

I’m convinced that well meaning fans mistakenly believe that posting the same arguments year in, year out, will somehow miraculously convert into management formulating an implementation plan for a standing area at Easter Road.

What we need is an action group backed by our Supporters Association, who would have to switch their focus from operating as a social club hosting Elvis Tribute Acts and enter into professional and regular dialogue with club management on all aspects of fan improvements. Everything from improving support for the team, enhancing the matchday atmosphere and matching the investment of our rivals.

I’m envious of other clubs such as Crystal Palace who have made huge strides in this area. All it took there was for fans to step away from their phones, form a campaign group and make things happen.

Sadly I’m not going to hold my breath that our supporters will step up to the plate and get things moving any time soon. I pray that I’ll be proven wrong sooner rather than later.

I understand the point you are making, however ultimately it should be up to the club to formulate a plan and drive forward implentation of a safe standing area ( with fan consultation).

Why? Because it's what fans want. We don't need some new Hibs fans group/ movement to tell us that.

There have been numerous fan surveys across the UK about safe standing areas and results have all been overwhelmingly in favour of safe standing. One of the largest surveys ran by the EFL a few years ago ( with 10's of thousands of responses) showed that: 69% of fans would prefer to stand; standing is most popular with highest supporting demographic fans (18-34 yrs old); and that nearly half of all fans would attend more games if safe standing was available. 94% of fans believe the choice to stand should be available.

Hibs can of course run their own consultation which would no doubt back that picture up.

There is no requirement IMO therefore for Hibs fans to set anything up with regard to this - the club should come up with options and then implenent with supporter views taken into account as part of the process. As Steve Jobs said it's up to a business to figure out what cutomers are going to want before they do.

It looks like that is already in the process of happening which is great.

[GreenGray]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I understand the point you are making, however ultimately it should be up to the club to formulate a plan and drive forward implentation of a safe standing area ( with fan consultation).

Why? Because it's what fans want. We don't need some new Hibs fans group/ movement to tell us that.

There have been numerous fan surveys across the UK about safe standing areas and results have all been overwhelmingly in favour of safe standing. One of the largest surveys ran by the EFL a few years ago ( with 10's of thousands of responses) showed that: 69% of fans would prefer to stand; standing is most popular with highest supporting demographic fans (18-34 yrs old); and that nearly half of all fans would attend more games if safe standing was available. 94% of fans believe the choice to stand should be available.

Hibs can of course run their own consultation which would no doubt back that picture up.

There is no requirement IMO therefore for Hibs fans to set anything up with regard to this - the club should come up with options and then implenent with supporter views taken into account as part of the process. As Steve Jobs said it's up to a business to figure out what cutomers are going to want before they do.

It looks like that is already in the process of happening which is great.

Was the survey Hibs put out in partnership with the Uni last year not used for this very reason? To better understand the fans feelings towards things such as safe standing and the experience at Easter road?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LaMotta]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Was the survey Hibs put out in partnership with the Uni last year not used for this very reason? To better understand the fans feelings towards things such as safe standing and the experience at Easter road?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Very good point.

Just had a look at the research findings, with over 10k people feeding in thoughts to the survey:

https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/en/pub...esearch-report

The findings state that standing room and singing space are key issues for enhancing matchday experience and encouraging increased attendance. It also states that the preffered singing space for a significant number of supporters is behind the goals.

[RIP]

Thanks for the responses.

We accept that this is an idea that has widespread support. But just like Pretty Boy, as the main driving force behind the East Stand Singing Section and Let’s Work Together, I too faced the challenge from our Ultras that my approach was too Corporate.

But as those of us who are experienced in change management and supporter activism acknowledge, the board and officials at Hibs pursue their own priorities. The volunteers who worked in LWT teams will tell you that we submitted a host of great ideas to our director counterparts only to find the club too busy to implement them.

We can take some satisfaction from the success of the Hibernian Way project which Brian Houston implemented in 2014. Rod stepped back, the board hired our suggestion as CEO (Leeann), who in turn recruited George Craig, who then brought in Stubbsy and his coaching team.

What the Safe Standing proposal needs now is to set up a joint working group to prepare a project plan. As things stand we know from the survey that there is broad support for the idea. What is not known however is how many supporters will buy a ST for a Safe Standing area.

In 2009,I built a database of several hundred people who were prepared to reserve a seat in Sections 42 to 44 with the top 20 rows of Section 43 as the core group. I met with Fife Hyland who agreed to establishing a singing section in S43. Several meetings were then held with stadium manager Garry O’Hagan on flag displays, cabinets and later by the group Sect43.

None of this fan activism would have been possible without fans stepping away from PCs and phones and making change happen. Like poster Pretty Boy, I’m also happy to help take this forward.

It’s our club - let’s work together to make it better.

[Cammy]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

If you look at the famous singing sections, ultra sections etc across Europe and beyond they tend to congregate behind the goals.

The yellow wall at Dortmund, Frente Atletico at the Metropolitano, Curva Nord at the San Siro, the Ultraslan of Galatasaray, the Boixos Nois at Barcelona or in the UK the Holmesdale Fanatics at Crystal Palace. Even in areas where standing isn't (officially) an option the likes of the Kop at Anfield, Stretford End at Old Trafford and Gallowgate End at St James tend to attract the loudest and most colourful fans.

I'm not suggesting it's prescriptive that a singing and standing section has to be behind a goal but it seems to be the position of choice for some of the groups who have made it a success. Maybe there is a psychological appeal about having 'claimed an end'. Of course we are a million miles away from the groups mentioned above and there is no guarantee that a move to the FF Lower will work but we do know that the current set up isn't working when it comes to atmosphere creation. The young lads involved in the current signing group try their best but they are fighting a losing battle to get people engaged. Surely trying something different and giving people a choice about whether to sit or stand is worth a shot?

Of course there are logistical challenges. The family section would have to be accommodated elsewhere (although I'd imagine more than a few older kids would want to be in amongst or close to a loud signing section). There is always threats of 'I won't renew my ST if I have to move' but I'm sceptical as to how many people would actually follow through with such a threat. I was moved from my seat in section 25 when the signing section was relocated there for a spell. I wasn't overly thrilled about it as I liked the people I sat with but not renewing as some form of petty protest never crossed my mind, I moved a couple of sections along and it was fine.

The good thing is the owner and board seem willing to throw a lot of stuff out there when it comes to improving the experience at ER and seeing what sticks. Opera singers and the like aren't for everyone but we tried it. A standing section is obviously a bigger commitment than that in a number of ways but I'd rather try something than constantly throw up worst case scenarios about why it won't work.

I agree with a lot of what you say, however, I’m not sure that FFL is the natural place for a standing section. It may be because as I grew up at Easter Road it was always the East that was the natural home of the singing. I would actually love the lower section of the East to be used. I think there are around 4 rows below the walkway, that could be used for standing and due to the angle of the stand I don’t think it would interfere with the view for anyone behind. The full length of the stand would be very intimidating for the opposition and create a great atmosphere. Look at what the Motherwell Boys are able to create from side on.