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  1. #61
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iain G View Post
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    Would be interesting to see our average league attendance once you take Ibrox and Parkhead out of the figures (oh and the 400,000 they get every other week at the PBS).

    Edit: Taking the 3rd to 12th places the average attandance for the season pre-Covid, minus the OF, was 8.651.

    Would obviously reduce further if adding in the other league clubs.
    All countries/leagues have 2 or 3 clubs with far higher attendances than the rest.


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  3. #62
    Coaching Staff Iain G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    All countries/leagues have 2 or 3 clubs with far higher attendances than the rest.
    In Denmark, which is a comparison that has been used in discussions here, the delta from top to bottom of the league attendance is around 10,000.

    In Scotland it's 54,000 so yes it does skew the numbers having 2 huge clubs so far ahead of the others in attendance.

  4. #63
    Testimonial Due Renfrew_Hibby's Avatar
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    There won't be another country in the world of less than 10M population where if you disregard the 2 best supported sides you have an average attendance of close on 9,000 for the remaining top flight clubs.
    When you also consider the scale of support the old firm get then the passion for football in Scotland is quite remarkable.
    Ron gets this.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain G View Post
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    Would be interesting to see our average league attendance once you take Ibrox and Parkhead out of the figures (oh and the 400,000 they get every other week at the PBS).

    Edit: Taking the 3rd to 12th places the average attandance for the season pre-Covid, minus the OF, was 8.651. Again this is skewed by Hibs and Hearts at 16000+ and Aberdeen at 13800 ish, everyone else is below 10.000.

    Would obviously reduce further if adding in the other league clubs.
    The last unaffected by covid season was 2018/19.
    Hibs averaged 17,740
    Hearts averaged 17, 564
    Aberdeen 14, 924

    No Danish team had average attendances as high as Hibs or Hearts that season
    That includes Copenhagen the only Danish side to exceed Aberdeens average

    Hamilton, Livingston and St Johnstone were the only poorly supported teams that season.
    We have eventually shaken of Hamilton and hopefully Livingston fall this season to be replaced by Kilmarnock.

    SPFL have already added Dundee Utd to the league since 2019 and they should be good for an average 8,000 at home games especially with Dundee also in the league.
    Kilmarnocks return will leave only Dunfermline and Falkirk of the decent supported teams outside of the top league.

    Stirling is the Scottish anomaly. Should have a decent supported team
    Last edited by CMurdoch; 29-09-2021 at 04:56 PM.

  6. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain G View Post
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    In Denmark, which is a comparison that has been used in discussions here, the delta from top to bottom of the league attendance is around 10,000.

    In Scotland it's 54,000 so yes it does skew the numbers having 2 huge clubs so far ahead of the others in attendance.
    But even Denmarks top supported team Copenhagen couldn't match Hibs and Hearts average attendances in the last non affected covid season.
    Last edited by CMurdoch; 29-09-2021 at 05:01 PM.

  7. #66
    @hibs.net private member superfurryhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMurdoch View Post
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    The last unaffected by covid season was 2018/19.
    Hibs averaged 17,740
    Hearts averaged 17, 564
    Aberdeen 14, 924

    No Danish team had average attendances as high as Hibs or Hearts that season
    That includes Copenhagen the only Danish side to exceed Aberdeens average

    Hamilton, Livingston and St Johnstone were the only poorly supported teams that season.
    We have eventually shaken of Hamilton and hopefully Livingston fall this season to be replaced by Kilmarnock.

    SPFL have already added Dundee Utd to the league since 2019 and they should be good for an average 8,000 at home games especially with Dundee also in the league.
    Kilmarnocks return will leave only Dunfermline and Falkirk of the decent supported teams outside of the top league.

    Stirling is the Scottish anomaly. Should have a decent supported team
    Maybe the attendances are also aligned to Scotland having a very different football culture, rather than simply attributing it to them showing 5 times as many live games?

    Do you know how the Danish viewing figures compare to those for our leagues?

  8. #67
    @hibs.net private member CapitalGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMurdoch View Post
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    I should say before I start I am not aiming the following at you Fergus.

    Re your examples. Denmark has a very similar population. Lets look at their TV deal
    Danish TV deal is £45 million. Average attendance in the league in the last season without covid was 6,595
    Scottish TV deal is £30 million. Average attendance in the league in the last season without covid was 15,973
    Accordingly match day income from tickets, hospitality, food and drink, the shop etc would be at least double in Scotland when compared to Denmark
    The real kicker is their TV deal is for 250 live matches and ours is for 50 which explains their poor attendances and match day income.

    In conclusion the Danish TV deal is pish although a fool only looking at the top line would be babbling the usual nonsense.
    The real story is that all their games are shown live on TV therefore very few people attend games and as a result of that Danish clubs make little money from match day income as detailed above. Additionally they have no atmosphere at their games.

    Our model is far superior to theirs.
    Our model suffered last season due to the pandemic.
    Their model will suffer every other season and will die if the TV money ever stops.
    Our model is TV moneyproofed.

    To compare countries TV deals you need to:compare:
    countries of similar population
    the number of games televised i.e how much are you getting per game
    the average attendances
    match day income

    Only then can you work out how good or bad a TV deal is.
    Simply looking at the top line is for fools or for gaslighting fools
    A very selective use of statistics here where you have cherry picked figures and presented them with little context to try and make your point.

    You claim that Danish attendances are poor as a result of their TV deal but present no evidence of that in your post. The Danish top flight was rebranded in 1991 and since then the average attendance of Danish top flight matches has more than doubled while the league has expanded to include more teams. As you can see from the table below, attendances have remained stable despite the TV deal, in fact average attendances are currently at their highest number in over a decade despite Covid still being an issue.

    2CFE019C-3D3A-4F6E-87DF-BBEFDB4947FE.jpg

    You have called people fools for “only looking at the top line”, yet you have done exactly this with regards to the Danish attendances by not presenting them in context and omitting the historical trends. Fortunately, I am confident that the analysts at Deloitte who will be tasked with reviewing our game and presenting possible improvements will have a better grasp of statistical analysis than yourself.
    Last edited by CapitalGreen; 29-09-2021 at 06:34 PM.

  9. #68
    @hibs.net private member whiskyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhileTheChief.. View Post
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    Thank Christ for the likes of Ron Gordon and Dave Cormack.

    We've spent decades moaning about the blazers running our game, well, now we've got some folk in to shake things up and get things moving.

    Don't give a damn about 20 odd tiny 'community clubs', they should have hee-haw say in what Hibs do. Let them form their own community league and see how they get on with crowds of under 300 every week.

    RG wants the top flight to be about elite football in Scotland. I back him 100% of the way.

    We'll come up with a proposal following the review. If it's not voted through there will be another breakaway.

    Either way, for once, we will get what we want.

    spot on

  10. #69
    @hibs.net private member whiskyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Gnome View Post
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    I'm fairly comfortable about this for now, I'm not sure the Scottish game is really ripe for sanitisation and losing its soul to money.

    The closed shop idea doesn't work - the idea of Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen being protected from relegation would be laughed out of town. If we're promoting the game for its madcap drama, a straw poll would probably cite Hibs, Hearts and Rangers in the lower leagues as the most entertainment there's been.

    Everyone else is probably equally likely to be in trouble at one time or another and aside from maybe the Dundee clubs they lack any sort of tangible financial clout to be worth safeguarding. The only way semi-realistic way to do it would be a rebranded top two leagues to form some sort of elite, then have a regional system below. Would the anger from lower league clubs, fans and Twitter purists be enough of a reputational error? Doubt it.

    If Ron Gordon is intent on being a money making machine, I can't see the perceived negative for Hibs at this stage? He can't hike ticket prices further as people would be driven away; if he invests loads to buy success then no one would give a monkeys if it meant a decent challenge to Rangers and Celtic - it's not got the scale to go down the route of the EPL tourist clubs either; if the ground becomes 'too' family friendly, then we've still got near-10k empty seats to work with - everyone can be accommodated without being shoehorned into an experience they don't like.

    If Ron's intent on making Hibs better, and meetings with Sky would be great cause for optimism here for his credibility and standing, then it's largely worth being along for the ride. The ticket prices are his only real red line as I see it - for all he's promoting football here, he also has to realise it's limitations and the fact people moan about it constantly. It might have a hidden media value, but the consumer buy-in is limited and he could give himself too much to do if pricing fans out.
    Absolutely, Hibs need to look after their best interests, and that should tie in with what’s best for the Scottish game, it needs to be much stronger to compete in Europe. it also needs to look beyond the SFA And current SPL set up which is only there to serve the Glasgow two

  11. #70
    Ultimate Slaver Keith_M's Avatar
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    Somebody mentioned the comparison to Austria, but there's only one team in Austria that gets higher than 10k average attendances per season.

    The biggest issue they have is that football is only the second most popular sport, after skiing. Plus the fact that a very large proportion of people in Vienna have links to Eastern and Southern Europe and are more likely to support the likes of Ferencvaros or Partisan Belgrade than their local team.

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMurdoch View Post
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    Your factless post is full of nothing.
    Apologies, I gave my opinion on a football fans forum full of opinion.

    It is widely agreed that the Scottish game could be improved, grown and made more competitive.
    Last edited by Allez Hibs; 29-09-2021 at 08:37 PM.

  13. #72
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    If Ron and the others manage to get the alcohol ban lifted that would be a huge step forward. Clubs should at least be allowed to try it and if there's any trouble then the club loses its licence. If England can manage to do it then I don't see why we can't manage to as well.

  14. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by CapitalGreen View Post
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    A very selective use of statistics here where you have cherry picked figures and presented them with little context to try and make your point.

    You claim that Danish attendances are poor as a result of their TV deal but present no evidence of that in your post. The Danish top flight was rebranded in 1991 and since then the average attendance of Danish top flight matches has more than doubled while the league has expanded to include more teams. As you can see from the table below, attendances have remained stable despite the TV deal, in fact average attendances are currently at their highest number in over a decade despite Covid still being an issue.

    2CFE019C-3D3A-4F6E-87DF-BBEFDB4947FE.jpg

    You have called people fools for “only looking at the top line”, yet you have done exactly this with regards to the Danish attendances by not presenting them in context and omitting the historical trends. Fortunately, I am confident that the analysts at Deloitte who will be tasked with reviewing our game and presenting possible improvements will have a better grasp of statistical analysis than yourself.
    The average attendances in Denmark are poor compared to Scotland and will remain so for a long time. Suspect this seasons upturn in attendances is the Eriksen & national team Euro effect which may or may not be sustained.
    Re your comment re Deloitte, they will be paid a fortune and will take 6 months to produce their report so hardly fair to make a comparison with a post I put together in 5 minutes for Social Media.
    I look forward to the vast tomb of the blindingly obvious which they will produce ably supported by a vast array of statistics and graphs. This report will eventually be used to bludgeon Scotland's part time teams and Doncaster with after the Old Firm tell the payees that they can have whatever league structure they want but the 11-1 majority needed for major decisions will remain as is so that they can continue to veto any wee team driven reforms they don't support.
    Last edited by CMurdoch; 29-09-2021 at 11:52 PM.

  15. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by superfurryhibby View Post
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    Maybe the attendances are also aligned to Scotland having a very different football culture, rather than simply attributing it to them showing 5 times as many live games?

    Do you know how the Danish viewing figures compare to those for our leagues?
    Not of the top of my head.

  16. #75
    @hibs.net private member Kato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhileTheChief.. View Post
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    Your sweeping generalisation of American's is just pure weird. If all they wanted to do was make money they wouldn't touch Scottish football.
    Agree with that. I've worked with and for Americans for years. On the scale Ron is at they mainly want to offer a great product and have customers who come back again and again. They want this as its a sustainable recipe for making money. Some even care for the reputation. The idea that they all behave like rapacious conglomerates is a lazy myth.



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  17. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by CMurdoch View Post
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    The average attendances in Denmark are poor compared to Scotland and will remain so for a long time. Suspect this seasons upturn in attendances is the Eriksen & national team Euro effect which may or may not be sustained.
    Re your comment re Deloitte, they will be paid a fortune and will take 6 months to produce their report so hardly fair to make a comparison with a post I put together in 5 minutes for Social Media.
    I look forward to the vast tomb of the blindingly obvious which they will produce ably supported by a vast array of statistics and graphs. This report will eventually be used to bludgeon Scotland's part time teams and Doncaster with after the Old Firm tell the payees that they can have whatever league structure they want but the 11-1 majority needed for major decisions will remain as is so that they can continue to veto any wee team driven reforms they don't support.
    It almost certainly is, having been over there during their Euros run, the whole nation became absolutely swept up in football this summer

  18. #77
    @hibs.net private member jacomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chippy View Post
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    How do you replace a fully professional club with a semi pro club and maintain quality ?

    At the moment nearly half the SPFL is semi pro. The argument is that a few of them step up to join the 22 professional clubs. That’s a step up in quality.

    If a club got relegated out of the two pro leagues, they’d have to decide whether to maintain their budget or cut their cloth. A promoted team would likewise have to adapt very quickly to stay up.

    It would be a big step between two leagues, obviously, but possible.

  19. #78
    @hibs.net private member jacomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMurdoch View Post
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    It cuts both ways but without them commercial entities and TV companies would offer buttons for our wares.
    The Americans are about making money not about losing it so they won't go near the threat to go it alone without them.
    Hell, the Americans biggest fear will be the risk of The OF leaving to join a Benilux or Atlantic league. We live in scary commercial times.
    In the end it's all about money and power for all the parties.
    I think RG is realistic and will go down the path that suits him best and protects his investment and his club.
    He is fighting on a number of fronts to up Hibs revenues.
    Player sales are on the launch pad.
    Qualification for the group stage of The European Conference League will be brought to the launch pad next summer and will either make it or get very close.
    These are the 2 big things he needs to grow Hibs.
    Selling and recruitment will require a great decision on who RG brings in to take over from Mathie and that will feed into the summers ins and outs and if that person gets that right the group qualification can take place. Get either recruiter or recruitment wrong and a fix will be slow and expensive.

    I think your pretty spot on here. Unfortunately Sevco get more unreasonable by the day and Celtc are in turmoil. It will be hard to get anything out of them.

  20. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by jacomo View Post
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    I think your pretty spot on here. Unfortunately Sevco get more unreasonable by the day and Celtc are in turmoil. It will be hard to get anything out of them.
    Sevco are still desperately trying to put their finances on a firm footing which keeps them in an agitated state and Celtic seem to be trying to get dressed in a gale!

  21. #80
    Solipsist Eyrie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacomo View Post
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    At the moment nearly half the SPFL is semi pro. The argument is that a few of them step up to join the 22 professional clubs. That’s a step up in quality.

    If a club got relegated out of the two pro leagues, they’d have to decide whether to maintain their budget or cut their cloth. A promoted team would likewise have to adapt very quickly to stay up.

    It would be a big step between two leagues, obviously, but possible.
    There's a clear case for having two separate parts to the league, with delegated authority to the top two divisions (mostly if not all full time clubs) regarding their affairs and to the lower leagues for the part time clubs with different concerns.

    Major items affecting both such as promotion/relegation between the two parts or revenue sharing would require to be voted on by all the clubs.
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