Reading The Bible in full as a non-believer

[Block]

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I'm with you.

I'm getting at when one religion, sect, cult, gang or whatever thinks their version of truth or morality is best or should 3brought to prevail over others.

Never ends well.

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Thankfully there are still nations and cultures that hold to their religions and versions of Law and Order.

Communism and Marxism that are entities without religion or law and order Never Ends Well as proven.

[Kato]

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Thankfully there are still nations and cultures that hold to their religions and versions of Law and Order.

Communism and Marxism that are entities without religion or law and order Never Ends Well as proven.

The irony there being is that if a truly Christian country taking the Sermon On The Mount, which is seem as the embodiment of the second covenant, as it's basis would be striving towards something not that far from communism.

I can't think of truly Christian country, certainly not one that looks to the second covenant as it's basis for living. Most groups who are pointing at the Bible or the Koran as their basis for morals are using a very messed up version of those writings and a very selective interpretation.

[Hibrandenburg]

It really does grip my faeces when the religious start to imply that they have some sort of monopoly on morality. If you need your religion to tell you what the right thing to do is, then the problem is not with humanity as a whole but more likely with you. We don't need religion for people to do good things but it is a very useful tool to get good people to do bad things.

[Moulin Yarns]

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I have about 1100 pages left to complete both Testaments. Who knows, by the end of it I might be a devout Christian . However, due to its importance, I think it can still be a valuable experience to the non-believer.

That's about where I gave up reading Lord of the Rings!! Half way through book 5!!

[Bostonhibby]

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It really does grip my faeces when the religious start to imply that they have some sort of monopoly on morality. If you need your religion to tell you what the right thing to do is, then the problem is not with humanity as a whole but more likely with you. We don't need religion for people to do good things but it is a very useful tool to get good people to do bad things.

Amen to that.

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[Key West]

I can understand why people take refuge in holy books, it looks like it’s down to interpretation in the end.
The whole of mankind has evolved over a long period of time and every individual has been switched on at some point to try and make some sort of sense of it all, we read books, watch films, listen to music to try and establish some moral compass. All of this could have happened without you ever existing, the fact that you are here in this moment to question things may suggests that atheism is too simplistic an answer.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm on 1 Chronicles, about 400 pages in. Big cliff-hanger at the end of Kings, whereby Judah has fallen to the Babylonians. Chronicles is a another interpretation of previous books, so it's going to be a while before the narrative picks up again. Those Old Testament writers knew how to keep the reader hooked

[Keith_M]

The 'Old Testament' seems to be full of hideous stories of slaughtering non-believers and includes what pretty much amounts to exterminations (or a Holocaust, if you will) of whole populations... Men, Women and Children.

It also has so many examples of people that considered Females as an inferior species, not worth as much as a Male. For instance, some guy called 'Lot' offered his own daughters to be raped by a Mob to prevent them attacking his House Guests.


It honestly has stuff in there that's the biggest load of made up bollocks you could possibly imagine, and yet hundreds of millions of people slavishly follow religions based on that nonsense.



And a question for our believers:

Wars, sexual abuse, hideous illnesses, premature deaths of children, rape, child-abuse, millions of people starving to death....

Are you telling us that your God is up there watching all this ever day and does F.... All about it yet you worship that guy? Seriously?

[Stairway 2 7]

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The 'Old Testament' seems to be full of hideous stories of slaughtering non-believers and includes what pretty much amounts to exterminations (or a Holocaust, if you will) of whole populations... Men, Women and Children.

It also has so many examples of people that considered Females as an inferior species, not worth as much as a Male. For instance, some guy called 'Lot' offered his own daughters to be raped by a Mob to prevent them attacking his House Guests.


It honestly has stuff in there that's the biggest load of made up bollocks you could possibly imagine, and yet hundreds of millions of people slavishly follow religions based on that nonsense.



And a question for our believers:

Wars, sexual abuse, hideous illnesses, premature deaths of children, rape, child-abuse, millions of people starving to death....

Are you telling us that your God is up there watching all this ever day and does F.... All about it yet you worship that guy? Seriously?

https://youtu.be/-suvkwNYSQo

The brilliant Stephen fry saying similar is great

[Pretty Boy]

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The 'Old Testament' seems to be full of hideous stories of slaughtering non-believers and includes what pretty much amounts to exterminations (or a Holocaust, if you will) of whole populations... Men, Women and Children.

It also has so many examples of people that considered Females as an inferior species, not worth as much as a Male. For instance, some guy called 'Lot' offered his own daughters to be raped by a Mob to prevent them attacking his House Guests.


It honestly has stuff in there that's the biggest load of made up bollocks you could possibly imagine, and yet hundreds of millions of people slavishly follow religions based on that nonsense.



And a question for our believers:

Wars, sexual abuse, hideous illnesses, premature deaths of children, rape, child-abuse, millions of people starving to death....

Are you telling us that your God is up there watching all this ever day and does F.... All about it yet you worship that guy? Seriously?

If people use bad things as proof that God doesn't exist, do they also balance that by attributing good things that happen to God? . If war, child abuse and rape are attributable to God's impotence or non existence then are medical advances, cancer survival, acts of charity and philanthropy and heroic rescues proof of his greatness and charity? You surely can't load the scales one way and say bad things happen = God isn't all powerful or doesn't exist. Good things happen = the work of humans and our ingenuity and goodness.

One of my favourite depictions of God is by Irvine Welsh in the Granton Star Cause in which God is just a pissed off old guy in a boozer. He's sick and tired of being blamed for everything wrong in the world, big and small and states he could fix it but he just doesn't give a ****. He then lists all the protagonists failings and explains to him how he had the power to change every one of them but chose not to and asks why he should be any different?


There are, or were, plentiful resources on the earth to be shared around so that we all have enough to eat, drink and live comfortable lives. Humans choose to distribute those resources unfairly. Rape, abuse, murder are all human acts. Humans have free will and the existence of God or otherwise is largely irrelevant to the people who carry out those actions, even those motivated by religion are carried out or instructed by humans. Likewise all the good things that happen are the result of human actions as well, even those motivated by people of faith.

I can accept all kinds of logical arguments for the non existence of God, I doubt there are many, if any, believers who don't think about them as well. I just don't think you can argue bad things happening is proof of non existence unless you are also willing to accept the opposite as balance.

[Stairway 2 7]

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If people use bad things as proof that God doesn't exist, do they also balance that by attributing good things that happen to God? . If war, child abuse and rape are attributable to God's impotence or non existence then are medical advances, cancer survival, acts of charity and philanthropy and heroic rescues proof of his greatness and charity? You surely can't load the scales one way and say bad things happen = God isn't all powerful or doesn't exist. Good things happen = the work of humans and our ingenuity and goodness.

One of my favourite depictions of God is by Irvine Welsh in the Granton Star Cause in which God is just a pissed off old guy in a boozer. He's sick and tired of being blamed for everything wrong in the world, big and small and states he could fix it but he just doesn't give a ****. He then lists all the protagonists failings and explains to him how he had the power to change every one of them but chose not to and asks why he should be any different?


There are, or were, plentiful resources on the earth to be shared around so that we all have enough to eat, drink and live comfortable lives. Humans choose to distribute those resources unfairly. Rape, abuse, murder are all human acts. Humans have free will and the existence of God or otherwise is largely irrelevant to the people who carry out those actions, even those motivated by religion are carried out or instructed by humans. Likewise all the good things that happen are the result of human actions as well, even those motivated by people of faith.

I can accept all kinds of logical arguments for the non existence of God, I doubt there are many, if any, believers who don't think about them as well. I just don't think you can argue bad things happening is proof of non existence unless you are also willing to accept the opposite as balance.

If he created childhood cancer he's a ****

[Pretty Boy]

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If he created childhood cancer he's a ****

What age is the cut off at which our mortality becomes palatable?

If everyone was guaranteed to live until at least 50 or we all died on our 70th birthday would that really sway anyone on the matter of the benevolence or existence of God. I'm sceptical.

[Keith_M]

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If people use bad things as proof that God doesn't exist, do they also balance that by attributing good things that happen to God? . If war, child abuse and rape are attributable to God's impotence or non existence then are medical advances, cancer survival, acts of charity and philanthropy and heroic rescues proof of his greatness and charity? You surely can't load the scales one way and say bad things happen = God isn't all powerful or doesn't exist. Good things happen = the work of humans and our ingenuity and goodness.

One of my favourite depictions of God is by Irvine Welsh in the Granton Star Cause in which God is just a pissed off old guy in a boozer. He's sick and tired of being blamed for everything wrong in the world, big and small and states he could fix it but he just doesn't give a ****. He then lists all the protagonists failings and explains to him how he had the power to change every one of them but chose not to and asks why he should be any different?


There are, or were, plentiful resources on the earth to be shared around so that we all have enough to eat, drink and live comfortable lives. Humans choose to distribute those resources unfairly. Rape, abuse, murder are all human acts. Humans have free will and the existence of God or otherwise is largely irrelevant to the people who carry out those actions, even those motivated by religion are carried out or instructed by humans. Likewise all the good things that happen are the result of human actions as well, even those motivated by people of faith.

I can accept all kinds of logical arguments for the non existence of God, I doubt there are many, if any, believers who don't think about them as well. I just don't think you can argue bad things happening is proof of non existence unless you are also willing to accept the opposite as balance.

Sorry mate, but that's a very poor attempt to defend your God.

We're not talking about whether bad things happen. We're talking about people who believe in a God that sits back and watches those bad things happen... day after day, year after year, century after century.... all the while still being worshipped by people that think that's OK?


Fair enough, you believe in that God if you like, but it hardly seems like a deity that's going to win me over any time soon.


And don't get me started on the sins of the pious that think God is with them.

'Gott Mit Uns' was a popular motto of one group from about 80 years back, as well as all the fanatical religious terrorists, child abusing Priests/Vicars, or those that burnt non-believers at the stake, urged on by their Priest, Vicar, Bishops, Imams and Popes.


Hypocrisy The Name Is Religion.

[Pretty Boy]

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Sorry mate, but that's a very poor attempt to defend your God.

We're not talking about whether bad things happen. We're talking about people who believe in a God that sits back and watches those bad things happen... day after day, year after year, century after century.... all the while still being worshipped by people that think that's OK?


Fair enough, you believe in that God if you like, but it hardly seems like a deity that's going to win me over any time soon.


And don't get me started on the sins of the pious that think God is with them.

'Gott Mit Uns' was a popular motto of one group from about 80 years back, as well as all the fanatical religious terrorists, child abusing Priests/Vicars, or those that burnt non-believers at the stake, urged on by their Priest, Vicar, Bishops, Imams and Popes.


Hypocrisy The Name Is Religion.

Is the latter part of your post not just a critique of the sins of humans and the flaws of organised religion rather than the sins of God? Take God out of the equation and those human failings and the belief in the superiority of one belief over another still exists. There are countless real world examples of that, a few already cited on this thread.

At what point does the hypothesised God start and stop interfering? Is it just a belief that if God exists he should give everyone what they want? How does that work in a world of disparate needs, wants and beliefs? At the most base level if a Hibs and Hearts fan both pray for their team to win the next Derby how does God satisfy both of them?

Good things happen every day. If I suggested any of them were proof of the existence of God I would be, quite correctly, shot down. If only the bad things can be taken into account then it leads to a pretty lopsided discussions though.

[Stairway 2 7]

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What age is the cut off at which our mortality becomes palatable?

If everyone was guaranteed to live until at least 50 or we all died on our 70th birthday would that really sway anyone on the matter of the benevolence or existence of God. I'm sceptical.

Right even say under 10s dying of cancer, what a horrible **** what sins did they commit. What does that unimaginable pain the kids go through or the people around them bring to his world. If God is all powerful and he let's there be child rape then I'd love to knock him out

[Hibrandenburg]

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Sorry mate, but that's a very poor attempt to defend your God.

We're not talking about whether bad things happen. We're talking about people who believe in a God that sits back and watches those bad things happen... day after day, year after year, century after century.... all the while still being worshipped by people that think that's OK?


Fair enough, you believe in that God if you like, but it hardly seems like a deity that's going to win me over any time soon.


And don't get me started on the sins of the pious that think God is with them.

'Gott Mit Uns' was a popular motto of one group from about 80 years back, as well as all the fanatical religious terrorists, child abusing Priests/Vicars, or those that burnt non-believers at the stake, urged on by their Priest, Vicar, Bishops, Imams and Popes.


Hypocrisy The Name Is Religion.

Epicurus sums it up rather well, he'd have been a great software developer:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

[Hibernia&Alba]

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And a question for our believers:

Wars, sexual abuse, hideous illnesses, premature deaths of children, rape, child-abuse, millions of people starving to death....

Are you telling us that your God is up there watching all this ever day and does F.... All about it yet you worship that guy? Seriously?

In The Old Testament, God doesn't merely sit back and watch such things, He Himself makes them happen. So He's actually calmed doon since the old days

[Pretty Boy]

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Epicurus sums it up rather well, he'd have been a great software developer:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Would you be happier without free will and with an omnipresent entity controlling your every thought and action? Surely to allow humans free will a God that existed would have to wilfully limit his powers? That doesn't even require a belief in God to understand. You can't have free will and also a total reliance on a singular entity to ensure you encounter no problems, sadness or badness in your life.

If would appear some eople who are nominally atheist or anti theist are very, very angry at a being they don't even believe to exist and/or angry at people for believing in that being. Both those angers seem misplaced to me. I have no real issue with the anger aimed at organised religion, in fact I'll happily join in when it comes to a great number of areas. The idea that a belief in any kind of supernatural or spiritual entity is a character flaw or a mark of inferior critical thinking seems flawed to me though. How many people who don't believe in God will happily accept that yoga involves some kind of 'spiritual energy'? Does that encounter the same level of mocking or implication of impaired intelligence? There are many great thinkers and scientists who failed to actively give up on the idea that there could be a God: Darwin, Carl Sagan, Ian Barbour. Einstein believed the problem too vast for his brain or the brain of others. With that in mind I'll stick with my stance of 'agnostic theist'. I just don't know. I think my favourite take might be that of Freeman Dyson though:

'Science and religion are two windows that people look through, trying to understand the big universe outside, trying to understand why we are here. The two windows give different views, but they look out at the same universe. Both views are one-sided, neither is complete. Both leave out essential features of the real world. And both are worthy of respect. Trouble arises when either science or religion claims universal jurisdiction, when either religious or scientific dogma claims to be infallible. Religious creationists and scientific materialists are equally dogmatic and insensitive. By their arrogance they bring both science and religion into disrepute. The media exaggerate their numbers and importance. The media rarely mention the fact that the great majority of religious people belong to moderate denominations that treat science with respect, or the fact that the great majority of scientists treat religion with respect so long as religion does not claim jurisdiction over scientific questions.'

[J-C]

Old testament god is a bit of a c*** , taking the 1st born, wiping out people who dont keep in line, wars in his name etc, then suddenly the NT comes along with good old Jesus and suddenly God turns into a bit of a hippie, turn the other cheek and help your fellow man no matter who he is. One minute it's kill the heathens then suddenly it's the heathens are our friends, welcome them.

Religion is there to control the population, do this that and the other or god will smight you down, the fear of god no matter what religion was enough to keep the people in check. We are better educated nowadays and the reason why there's far more non believers, hundreds of years ago the vast majority couldn't read or right and did as they were told, that's all changed.

[marinello59]

This one has veered away from the appreciation of the Bible as a work of art then.
The only thing we all know is that nobody can prove God does exist and nobody can prove he doesn’t. The certainty of angry Atheism though has almost become a pastiche of religion itself , with quotes from high profile non-believers replacing scripture as the fountain of truth.
Religious beliefs should be robustly challenged but implying that holding them shows a lack of education is just a wee bit unfair. Well that’s wot I thinks.

[CropleyWasGod]

For me, the book of Revelation is one of the finest pieces of writing there is.

I won't tell you how it ends 😉

[Hibernia&Alba]

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This one has veered away from the appreciation of the Bible as a work of art then.
The only thing we all know is that nobody can prove God does exist and nobody can prove he doesn’t. The certainty of angry Atheism though has almost become a pastiche of religion itself , with quotes from high profile non-believers replacing scripture as the fountain of truth.
Religious beliefs should be robustly challenged but implying that holding them shows a lack of education is just a wee bit unfair. Well that’s wot I thinks.

Absolutely it's unfair, and such a suggestion would be ignorant. There is a vast range of people within religious beliefs of all kinds; in the contemporary West (America aside perhaps) which is strongly secular, you could argue that religious belief (particularly Christianity and Judaism) is now countercultural. I think capitalism (and not philosophy and science, as folk like Nietzsche argued) has done the most to kill off religion in the West. Money, not God, is the main object of worship in society, and I think it's a good thing that there remain challenges to its dominance; religion being one method. I think another positive of religion is the way it provides an eternal anchor for believers, in a rapidly changing world which can seem frightening and out of control. It's one way of looking beyond the chaos, in order to make sense of the world. Modern life provides few opportunities for quiet reflection, as we are constantly bombarded with information and pulled this way and that by various demands upon us. Buddhism has always interested me in that regard: gaining inner peace in a crazy and fast moving society, without the need for a deity.

This is Doubting H&A, getting ready to head to Mass.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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For me, the book of Revelation is one of the finest pieces of writing there is.

I won't tell you how it ends 😉

I always suspected you are one of those fundamentalist Protestants, praying for the Rapture of the End Days, CWG

[CropleyWasGod]

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I always suspected you are one of those fundamentalist Protestants, praying for the Rapture of the End Days, CWG

Me, John Lennon and Charlie Manson. 😁

[Hibrandenburg]

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Would you be happier without free will and with an omnipresent entity controlling your every thought and action? Surely to allow humans free will a God that existed would have to wilfully limit his powers? That doesn't even require a belief in God to understand. You can't have free will and also a total reliance on a singular entity to ensure you encounter no problems, sadness or badness in your life.

If would appear some eople who are nominally atheist or anti theist are very, very angry at a being they don't even believe to exist and/or angry at people for believing in that being. Both those angers seem misplaced to me. I have no real issue with the anger aimed at organised religion, in fact I'll happily join in when it comes to a great number of areas. The idea that a belief in any kind of supernatural or spiritual entity is a character flaw or a mark of inferior critical thinking seems flawed to me though. How many people who don't believe in God will happily accept that yoga involves some kind of 'spiritual energy'? Does that encounter the same level of mocking or implication of impaired intelligence? There are many great thinkers and scientists who failed to actively give up on the idea that there could be a God: Darwin, Carl Sagan, Ian Barbour. Einstein believed the problem too vast for his brain or the brain of others. With that in mind I'll stick with my stance of 'agnostic theist'. I just don't know. I think my favourite take might be that of Freeman Dyson though:

'Science and religion are two windows that people look through, trying to understand the big universe outside, trying to understand why we are here. The two windows give different views, but they look out at the same universe. Both views are one-sided, neither is complete. Both leave out essential features of the real world. And both are worthy of respect. Trouble arises when either science or religion claims universal jurisdiction, when either religious or scientific dogma claims to be infallible. Religious creationists and scientific materialists are equally dogmatic and insensitive. By their arrogance they bring both science and religion into disrepute. The media exaggerate their numbers and importance. The media rarely mention the fact that the great majority of religious people belong to moderate denominations that treat science with respect, or the fact that the great majority of scientists treat religion with respect so long as religion does not claim jurisdiction over scientific questions.'

I've no problem with people believing whatever they want, if I examined my own beliefs I'd probably surprise myself at how ridiculous some of them would sound to others.

My problem is not with peoples beliefs, it's when those beliefs cross the line and try and influence my life based on what they believe or insists that others are obliged to follow the moral code that they themselves have.

I guess my problem is with organised religion, especially the hypocrisy of it demanding special protection against criticism and simultaneously being critical of that what doesn't comply with its ideology.

[Kato]

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Old testament god is a bit of a c*** , taking the 1st born, wiping out people who dont keep in line, wars in his name etc, then suddenly the NT comes along with good old Jesus and suddenly God turns into a bit of a hippie, turn the other cheek and help your fellow man no matter who he is. One minute it's kill the heathens then suddenly it's the heathens are our friends, welcome them.

Religion is there to control the population, do this that and the other or god will smight you down, the fear of god no matter what religion was enough to keep the people in check. We are better educated nowadays and the reason why there's far more non believers, hundreds of years ago the vast majority couldn't read or right and did as they were told, that's all changed.

Those OT God and the NT God have different characters as those collections of books were written by different people/tribes. The OT "Yahweh" was a God of War, the priests wore armour and treated anyone who was an outsider as unclean. The NT God doesnt bare any resemblance to that at all. The varying characters called God differ because those books have been brought together as one, which makes them contrary and confusing.

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[Kato]

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I'm on 1 Chronicles, about 400 pages in. Big cliff-hanger at the end of Kings, whereby Judah has fallen to the Babylonians. Chronicles is a another interpretation of previous books, so it's going to be a while before the narrative picks up again. Those Old Testament writers knew how to keep the reader hooked

An actual bit of the Bible which is historically verifiable.

The Babylonians took 10-20 thousand people from the Kingdom of Judah into captivity. Once there their religious outlook changed forever. Their religion up until that point revolved around the Temple and visiting it when required. Once that was impossible they diverted there religious impulse to building a temple "within themselves" which is a far more spiritual pursuit than claiming God gave them a but of land forever. That in turn led to a belief in following strict rituals and beliefs which ain't spiritual at all.

When they were released and returned to Jerusalem they were called "Persians" i.e. Parsees, Pharisees .

https://youtu.be/HTq7vE_5un4


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[Bostonhibby]

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I've no problem with people believing whatever they want, if I examined my own beliefs I'd probably surprise myself at how ridiculous some of them would sound to others.

My problem is not with peoples beliefs, it's when those beliefs cross the line and try and influence my life based on what they believe or insists that others are obliged to follow the moral code that they themselves have.

I guess my problem is with organised religion, especially the hypocrisy of it demanding special protection against criticism and simultaneously being critical of that what doesn't comply with its ideology.

This thread has been a very informative one for me, this post is very close to my own take on religion(s).

I'm still an atheist who is comfortable with my reasons for being one and definitely not an angry one

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[Bangkok Hibby]

God

Did he create the universe?
Is he still alive?
If so is he benevolent and helps black American athletes win races?
What about the white guys who don't win?
Do we praise him for good stuff?
Do we absolve him of blame for bad stuff?
If the answer to bad **** happening is "we have free will" what do we continue to praise him for?
Must we thank him forever more for allowing us to destroy each other and the planet?

It's all absolute nonsense isn't it?

[CropleyWasGod]

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God

Did he create the universe?
Is he still alive?
If so is he benevolent and helps black American athletes win races?
What about the white guys who don't win?
Do we praise him for good stuff?
Do we absolve him of blame for bad stuff?
If the answer to bad **** happening is "we have free will" what do we continue to praise him for?
Must we thank him forever more for allowing us to destroy each other and the planet?

It's all absolute nonsense isn't it?

So you don't hold to the concept of the Divine Feminine, then?