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  1. #211
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotherhamrob View Post
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    So what's the difference between an unvaxed asymptomatic who tests positive and a vaxed asymptomatics individual who tests positive?
    Asymptomatic spread is either a thing or it isn't, can't apply to one and not the other.
    I don't think whether there are symptoms is the issue. If you're vaccinated but infected, the chances are that you'll have less virus molecules in your body than somebody who isn't vaccinated, thus you'll have less to transmit.

    I'm not a scientist but I think that's how it works.


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  3. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibee316 View Post
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    Have they said that they don't care about the greater good though?
    Would they not get it if it had no benefits for themselves?

    Whatever the reason for getting the vax it lowers the chances of spreading infection and the chances of a "heavy" infection so the result is the same - the greater good is served whether intentional or not. After everything that has been said/published I don't see how anyone can question the benefits of the vaccinations either to oneself or for the greater good.

    The vaccinations may not be perfect but any percentage of immunity is better than nil percentage.

  4. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    Is this in your criteria for deciding whether or not they're "erseh0les"?
    I've obviously upset you and I apologised for using that word.

    My point remains if you have no concern about the greater good, then you are, by definition, selfish.

    I also said there would probably be more to it, as you can't get your full point across via a message board.

    I'm sure most folk who aren't keen on the vaccination have concerns about what they think it might do to them. Or have other concerns.

  5. #214
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibee316 View Post
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    I've obviously upset you and I apologised for using that word.

    My point remains if you have no concern about the greater good, then you are, by definition, selfish.

    I also said there would probably be more to it, as you can't get your full point across via a message board.

    I'm sure most folk who aren't keen on the vaccination have concerns about what they think it might do to them. Or have other concerns.
    Where did I say that?

    You didn't apologise for calling me selfish - nor my friends.

  6. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    Where did I say that?

    You didn't apologise for calling me selfish - nor my friends.
    Okay. You have a nice day.

  7. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    "A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus."

    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...ed-people.html

    "Two studies1,2 from Israel, posted as preprints on 16 July, find that two doses of the vaccine made by pharmaceutical company Pfizer, based in New York City, and biotechnology company BioNTech, based in Mainz, Germany, are 81% effective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 infections. And vaccinated people who do get infected are up to 78% less likely to spread the virus to household members than are unvaccinated people. Overall, this adds up to very high protection against transmission, say researchers."

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02054-z

    I typed the words "covid vaccinated transmission" into google and there's loads of stuff.
    We certainly found studies but they generally didn't differentiate whether or not the subjects of the study were symptomatic or asymptomatic. Of course if the vaccine reduces symptoms it will reduce spread.


    My point was more regarding whether or not there's a difference in spread with vaxed vs unvaxed asymptomatics. The studies don't make this clear. The reason I brought it up was because I don't think for the football or nightclubs it makes a difference whether not you are vaxed if you can provide a negative test.

  8. #217
    Coaching Staff Ronniekirk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.S View Post
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    Being double vaccinated means I'm unlikely to get ill if I catch the virus, chances are I'd be symptom free. So if I went to the football and sat with someone else who is double vaxed and gave it to them they would more than likely be okay too. The chances of all of that happening must be so slim anyway and the consequences of it in the event it did happen are pretty minor. We take risks with our health every day. We cant live in a sterile bubble, our immune systems wont cope for a start.

    People.who feel vulnerable or are vulnerable have to make their own life assessments, like we did before covid. I was a nurse with a low immune system due to drugs I take. I knew the risks and the only thing I requested was not to be put in a norovirus ward.

    Personally I'd keep the masks indoors for a few more weeks, end sept/oct til everybody's had the chance to be double vaxed then get rid and make them personal choice. Everything else goes back to normal in aug apart from foreign travel which would have to be dependant on your destination or people arriving here being vaccinated.

    Obviously there's no acceptable death rate, that wasnt a fair question but whats an acceptable death rate for untreated cancer or how many suicides is acceptable . None is the answer, it's all about balance. People die from all sorts, outbreaks of meningitis, norovirus can be a killer and obviously the flu. Are we going to live in a society that lockdown for everything. Even chicken pox can kill. All we can do is have the vaccine and get on with our lives
    Boris has put a figure on an acceptable death rate from his perspective indicating it might go to between a hundred and 200 a day and saying that’s the price we might have to pay when fully opening up society and restoring freedoms
    It was 131 the other day
    I assume his figures are worst case scenario and it won’t come to that but the idea we can have no deaths is not possible
    People who have been double jabbed and get Covid could still die especially if older and underlying health issues
    But most people I know now just want to get back to normal fir the rest of the summer on the assumption that winter and bad flu season could see some forms of restrictions brought back in
    Nicola and Jason Leitch are both giving the message we need to continue relaxing restrictions and I expect this to continue with some mitigating factors left in place a bit longer



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  9. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    I don't think whether there are symptoms is the issue. If you're vaccinated but infected, the chances are that you'll have less virus molecules in your body than somebody who isn't vaccinated, thus you'll have less to transmit.

    I'm not a scientist but I think that's how it works.
    And yet the cdc and fauci said yesterday that the viral load in the vaccinated can be as high as those not vaccinated.
    Who knows?
    Either way I think we're going to have to live with it pretty soon as it is endemic, which also means that like flu we'll have good and bad yrs.

  10. #219
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SChibs View Post
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    We certainly found studies but they generally didn't differentiate whether or not the subjects of the study were symptomatic or asymptomatic. Of course if the vaccine reduces symptoms it will reduce spread.


    My point was more regarding whether or not there's a difference in spread with vaxed vs unvaxed asymptomatics. The studies don't make this clear. The reason I brought it up was because I don't think for the football or nightclubs it makes a difference whether not you are vaxed if you can provide a negative test.
    The first link that I posted included this

    "COVID-19 vaccine efficacy and effectiveness
    Vaccine efficacy refers to how well a vaccine performs in a carefully controlled clinical trial, whereas effectiveness describes its performance in real-world observational studies. Evidence demonstrates that the authorized COVID-19 vaccines are both efficacious and effective against symptomatic, laboratory-confirmed COVID-19, including severe forms of the disease. In addition, a growing body of evidence suggests that mRNA COVID-19 vaccines also reduce asymptomatic infection and transmission. Substantial reductions in SARS-CoV-2 infections (both symptomatic and asymptomatic) will reduce overall levels of disease, and therefore, viral transmission in the United States. However, investigations are ongoing to assess further the risk of transmission from fully vaccinated persons with breakthrough infections."

    See, it says "a growing body of evidence".

    So there!

  11. #220
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    The first link that I posted included this

    "COVID-19 vaccine efficacy and effectiveness
    Vaccine efficacy refers to how well a vaccine performs in a carefully controlled clinical trial, whereas effectiveness describes its performance in real-world observational studies. Evidence demonstrates that the authorized COVID-19 vaccines are both efficacious and effective against symptomatic, laboratory-confirmed COVID-19, including severe forms of the disease. In addition, a growing body of evidence suggests that mRNA COVID-19 vaccines also reduce asymptomatic infection and transmission. Substantial reductions in SARS-CoV-2 infections (both symptomatic and asymptomatic) will reduce overall levels of disease, and therefore, viral transmission in the United States. However, investigations are ongoing to assess further the risk of transmission from fully vaccinated persons with breakthrough infections."

    See, it says "a growing body of evidence".

    So there!
    Not arguing with the data, but none of it includes the AZ vaccine as far as I can tell.
    WASH YOUR HANDS, WEAR A MASK, KEEP 2M APART AND GET THE VACCINE

  12. #221
    One indication of what the future may hold is that Scotland have released ticket details for three qualifiers this autumn, the first of which takes place on the 5th of September. It does seem as though they’re planning for a full crowd, which bodes well

  13. #222
    Social distancing is due to end august 9th in Scotland so that also means queues and gaps in seating arrangements won’t matter - you can also mingle at bars etc.

  14. #223
    @hibs.net private member LancsHibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABZHFC View Post
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    One indication of what the future may hold is that Scotland have released ticket details for three qualifiers this autumn, the first of which takes place on the 5th of September. It does seem as though they’re planning for a full crowd, which bodes well
    Good, it’s time to get back to normal

  15. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenCastle View Post
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    Social distancing is due to end august 9th in Scotland so that also means queues and gaps in seating arrangements won’t matter - you can also mingle at bars etc.
    Fingers crossed pal, think it's Tuesday it gets announced for definite. I just pray it's a complete return to normal, no halfway house stuff. Would be absolutely buzzing to be walking down Easter Road on Sunday the 15th for Kilmarnock at home in front of a (hopefully) full as possible crowd

  16. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by LancsHibs View Post
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    Good, it’s time to get back to normal


    The SFA (in their rare wisdom) have even set the prices pretty reasonable for the Moldova qualifier at Hampden in September - £20 for an adult ticket and £5 for juniors/seniors!

  17. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    The first link that I posted included this

    "COVID-19 vaccine efficacy and effectiveness
    Vaccine efficacy refers to how well a vaccine performs in a carefully controlled clinical trial, whereas effectiveness describes its performance in real-world observational studies. Evidence demonstrates that the authorized COVID-19 vaccines are both efficacious and effective against symptomatic, laboratory-confirmed COVID-19, including severe forms of the disease. In addition, a growing body of evidence suggests that mRNA COVID-19 vaccines also reduce asymptomatic infection and transmission. Substantial reductions in SARS-CoV-2 infections (both symptomatic and asymptomatic) will reduce overall levels of disease, and therefore, viral transmission in the United States. However, investigations are ongoing to assess further the risk of transmission from fully vaccinated persons with breakthrough infections."

    See, it says "a growing body of evidence".

    So there!
    Fair play. The vast majority of people don't normally have evidence on hand to back up their opinion. You do. I've seen sources claim both sides so it's hard to make form a concrete decision either way.

  18. #227
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SChibs View Post
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    Fair play. The vast majority of people don't normally have evidence on hand to back up their opinion. You do. I've seen sources claim both sides so it's hard to make form a concrete decision either way.
    I'm in no way an expert (or even at all well informed) on this stuff, but there are certain points I'll absorb if I'm comfortable with the source, although in this case I had to search for something to back up what I heard.

    In any case there seems to me that the way out of this thing is vaccination and, in the meantime, a gradual easing of other measures but without going too mental too soon.

  19. #228
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    Not arguing with the data, but none of it includes the AZ vaccine as far as I can tell.
    Huh - council vaccine! I'm only fussed about expensive ones.

  20. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    I'm in no way an expert (or even at all well informed) on this stuff, but there are certain points I'll absorb if I'm comfortable with the source, although in this case I had to search for something to back up what I heard.

    In any case there seems to me that the way out of this thing is vaccination and, in the meantime, a gradual easing of other measures but without going too mental too soon.
    I think a big part of the problem is there is no right way to do it. Either way people will die so we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Also everyone is comfortable with a different level of risk but nobody can be sure how exactly the risks and hazards will pan out

  21. #230
    @hibs.net private member SteveHFC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ABZHFC View Post
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    Fingers crossed pal, think it's Tuesday it gets announced for definite. I just pray it's a complete return to normal, no halfway house stuff. Would be absolutely buzzing to be walking down Easter Road on Sunday the 15th for Kilmarnock at home in front of a (hopefully) full as possible crowd
    Bit nervous for Tuesday’s announcement myself but I think we will see a full (hopefully) crowd for the Killie cup game at home.

  22. #231
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    Huh - council vaccine! I'm only fussed about expensive ones.
    Maybe so, but a lot of people had 2 doses of AZ, myself included. 😉
    WASH YOUR HANDS, WEAR A MASK, KEEP 2M APART AND GET THE VACCINE

  23. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    Huh - council vaccine! I'm only fussed about expensive ones.
    500,000,000 of us are just grateful

    University of Oxford
    @UniofOxford
    ·
    NEW: #OxfordVaccine reaches 1,000,000,000 doses released

    We're delighted to announce our vaccine has reached a significant milestone of one billion doses.

    We thank
    @AstraZeneca
    for manufacturing and distributing our life-saving vaccine at cost.
    Last edited by J.S; 30-07-2021 at 10:38 AM.

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